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I've got a couple 4' x 4'x signs that are aluminum that I just had powder coated. It is a lot of text so I am going to use Avery paint mask to do the job. I plan to roll on the 1-shot with either a foam or nap roller (which is better?)
Should I have to scuff the powder coated surface with a Scotchbrite pad or will it adhere good without scuffing. I'm afraid with all the 1" lettering I will accidentally remove pieces that shouldn't have been removed during the scuffing process.
Thanks in advance.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Amy, from my past experiences with powder coated surfaces I can see you coming to grief. The only paint I have ever seen stick to powder coating is a screen printing ink which dries too fast for writing or rolling with. If I were you I would check into the screen printing inks and try spraying the mask lightly building up the layer enough to get coverage. Try a sample bit first in case it drys over the edges too much which may cause it to peel back off.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Isn't the alumalite baked enamel and powder coating practically the same thing? I've use Ronan on alumalite with no problem. Maybe the chemistry is different.
Crap, I'm really confused now.
What about HoK Striping Enamels with catalyst??
[ February 26, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Amy is this the same type powder coating they use for bike frames? The powder coatings that I am familiar with are formulated to resist anything sticking to them,...and I mean anything,..vinyl don't even like the stuff,it will stick but not as well as it would to paint,...it makes for a beautiful finish but as far as decorating you are on your own,....
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It's PPG Envirocron Powder Coat. I guess it's what they use on bike frames but I'm not sure. He is a local guy and coats all kinds of stuff. He had a bike frame in there today!
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Powder coating is a process where a plastic is applied then melted onto a metal surface. It all depends on what the powder is made of. Some plastics can be painted but others have low energy surfaces that will not allow anything to stick very well. Plus it all depends on the paint you are using.
I once used solid teflon blocks to hold things while they were getting painted. Most paints just flaked off the teflon with a quick wipe, just what I wanted. But Matthews paint stuck to the teflon and would not come off no matter what. I had to grind it off.
You may have to do some experiments.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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It looks to me as thought the folks who answered your first post didn't really address the Powder Coat question. If I had this going on right now and was buried in the expense of the coating I'd probably apply a small amount of the paint (I use One Shot all the time) to the surface where it won't matter and a day or so later see if it scrapes off with your thumbnail. It should act a lot like painting on glass - it will dry and stay there but won't be soaked in. As stated; SOME of this stuff will outright reject the paint - if that happens I'd either let my customer know I was experimenting or I might just bail on the PC and go for an enamel background. Good luck and don't panic. I would use the small white 3 inch Shur-Line rollers. not the yellow foam ones because they leave a texture.Take off any fuzz first with masking tape. Or use the smooth black ones.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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There are at least 6 types of 'powders', such as polyesters, and epoxies. Each has unique properties, such as gloss, chemical resistance, thickness etc.. Ask what type they are using. Some types can be 'softened' up with a wipe of a 'hot' solvent prior to painting to promote adhesion. Some are nearly grafitti proof, hence nothing will ever stick. Good luck.
-------------------- "Are we having fun yet?" Peter Schuttinga DZines Sign Studio 1617 Millstream rd Victoria BC V9B-6G4 Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
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Amy, i am sorry I didn't see your other post. I have been screen printing panels for my local council regularly for many years with an ink (made in Aus,) formulated for powdercoated surfaces. They are printed in a rich cream on a Heritage (dark green) background). I print it and let it dry which it does quickly and then I run it through again. If I make any mess ups it is impossible to clean up because powdercoating can not be wiped with ANY solvents at all which makes it rather difficult to prepare. I have found that even vinyl doesn't take too well to it. I think if you can get a similar ink and thin it with a retarder then spray it lightly gradually building up the layer it may well work, but test a small piece first.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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I would think maybe the "powder coat" may have some suggestions. I have lettered on it before (racecar framing) and it stuck with One-Shot but do not have a clue as to how well it held up. Perhaps you will need a "barrier coat" (Frogjuice maybe or an automotive mid-coat sealer). If using One-Shot I would roll on, tip off with brush to smooth out, and remove mask as soon as possible, "tweezing-out" the centers of small letters first. I would like to know how all of this plays out,....good luck!
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I used to get a lot of motorcycle parts powder coated. Some powdercoats are pretty much like "ordinary" paint and some are way different. (the "powder" is attracted to the surface using a sort of static cling, by the way.) Office furniture, like file cabinets, is all powder coated, and it takes 1-shot with just some scuffing.
You asked about baked finishes like Dibond. I asked Frank Manning over at 1-shot about that the other day. He said to scuff lightly with a green or grey 3m pad, OR to use a mid-coat "adhesion promoter". Its whats used for getting paint to stick to the new automotive clearcoats. Dupont 2225 is what he said to use, but I haven't had time to try it yet.
as for rolling on the paint using paint mask -- i now prefer to paint it on with a brush. it seems to coat better, and i dont have as much paint on the masking material. the paint on the masking vinyl seems to get all over me, and i'm always worried about getting fingerprints or "drop backs" (when the mask rips and falls back on the substrate while you peel it up).
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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I've used Nazdar #59-000 enamel series ink, thinned and rolled over paintmask, on powdercoated aluminum. It is what the supplier of the substrate uses and recommends. I roughed the surface with a scotchbright pad, but wouldn't do that again. Besides, when I screenprint with this stuff we never rough up the surface. (Acrylic Polyurethane Powdercoat)
I've also screenprinted Nazdar SuperSet Ink on powdercoated parts with great success. You do, however, have to bake them to cure the ink. The higher the temp the shorter the time - the ink melts into the powdercoat resulting in a great finish. I used an old flash unit to bake the surface. (Polyester Powdercoat)
Hope this helps!
Bruce
-------------------- Bruce & Deb Newton Graphic Lettering San Marcos, CA Posts: 126 | From: San Marcos, CA | Registered: Sep 2001
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Amy, Sounds like a great place to use vinyl instead of paint. Powder coatings being fired in application to high temps leave a very slick surface. Whatever you get to abrade it is going to play havoc with your mask. Also solvents you use to soften the surface are going to attack your mask either under the edges or the whole thing.
Now, if I had to paint it, I would apply the mask, Abrade it with find sand in a sandblaster (this will also help seat the mask on the edges) Then proceed with probably one shot. Remember to use light sandblasting so not to ruin the mask. I use sign vinyl on glass all the time for light blasting resist.
Would you mind telling us why you are using this combo. It just seems a little unusual but it might work great. Good luck, Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Well I got it all masked and scuffed with a Scothbrite pad. Painted, couldn't get the mask off. It's totally hosed!!
The customer stated he didn't want vinyl lettering. He's getting a call Monday morning to try to change his mind.
I went this route because I thought the finish would look really good and there is a guy here in my little town that powder coats at good prices. It looked fantastic when he finished it.
I can say this. Vinyl/mask whatever sticks like superglue. If he won't take vinyl I'll be eating the $300+ I've got in it. Live and learn, right??
Thanks for all the replies.
For future references, he used PPG Envirocron Polyester powder coat and I didn't have any problem with stuff sticking to it.
Man am I glad it's Saturday!!
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Amy, When I saw your powder coat dilemma, I cringed. We have one customer who wants ONLY powder coated 1/4" alum. signs, and we have done some for a few years with no problems...until just recently he called to tell us that all 58 signs are peeling. Well, we thought he must have been seeing things until we checked it out!! Of course all were on the 2nd story of the buildings spread out over 4 blocks!! Yes, the powder coat had peeled off in spots down to the aluminum. We had used vinyl lettering, with no prepping other than alcohol. The vinyl still looked great, no problem. No fading even. Well, we hauled them right back to the powder coater and he of course would admit nothing. He blamed it on Environmental problems!! He did redo them for free, but of course we are out the removal, replace, and vinyl costs. Maybe several hundred $$ worth. However, the customer spends thousands every year with us, and he really appreciated us standing behind it regardless. Anyway, after all this complaining, We still use vinyl, I would talk him into that, but from now on, we use a different powder coater and put automotive clear over it all. Its not cheap here, but he is willing to pay the costs. Good Luck!
-------------------- Tom & Kathy Durham House Springs, MO Posts: 654 | From: House Springs, MO | Registered: Apr 1999
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Last year a truck that I lettered soon had sections of the illustration and lettering gone! I was shocked seeing it at the lumber yard. This was one of the new white pick ups....evidently powder coated. So far, I've had success with this very fine alumina micron powder that I get from Esoteric Sign Supply. I have a felt pad that I dampen and put some of this powder on and attach it to a vibrating sander. It seems to scuff the surface enough to get enamel to stiick, but it doesn't harm the gloss in a way you can see.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have been screen printing panels for my local council regularly for many years with an ink (made in Aus,) formulated for powdercoated surfaces. They are printed in a rich cream on a Heritage (dark green) background). 
I print it and let it dry which it does quickly and then I run it through again. If I make any mess ups it is impossible to clean up because powdercoating can not be wiped with ANY solvents at all which makes it rather difficult to prepare. I have found that even vinyl doesn't take too well to it. I think if you can get a similar ink and thin it with a retarder then spray it lightly gradually building up the layer it may well work, but test a small piece first.
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Of course all were on the 2nd story of the buildings spread out over 4 blocks!! Yes, the powder coat had peeled off in spots down to the aluminum. We had used vinyl lettering, with no prepping other than alcohol. The vinyl still looked great, no problem. No fading even. Well, we hauled them right back to the powder coater and he of course would admit nothing. He blamed it on Environmental problems!! He did redo them for free, but of course we are out the removal, replace, and vinyl costs. Maybe several hundred $$ worth. However, the customer spends thousands every year with us, and he really appreciated us standing behind it regardless. Anyway, after all this complaining, We still use vinyl, I would talk him into that, but from now on, we use a different powder coater and put automotive clear over it all. Its not cheap here, but he is willing to pay the costs. Good Luck!
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