posted
An old customer came by with his new 14' box van, wanting it lettered. He wanted something much simpler than his previous van that I lettered. He wanted to know how to remove the lettering from the old van also. It was done with catalyzed enamel.Tough to get off. I showed him a vinyl color chart and he selected a color that I ordered.
It was dark when he came to retrieve his rig, but he left a check in the drop box. Two days later he called and was absolutely furious! He discovered that the letters were that stick on stuff and not paint.
I usually make the calls as to what the best material for a job would be, often it might be some paint and some vinyl. I consider the need for the sign and try to give the customer what i think might be best.
This was one of those times when it was not clearly discussed what materials would be used.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6849 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Ouch! I probably would have assumed that he didn't want to spend as much money as last time when he said "much simpler". Maybe this is what happened? Not knowing the full story, I would approach it this way; Vinyl is a less expensive way to achieve the look he wanted and it's much easier to remove when compared to the paint used on the last truck. However, if you charged the same price as he last truck, I would strip & repaint at no cost to the client. Hindsight is 20-20. If I was in this situation, I would have said no problem to a redesign for an additional fee and quoted the job. But, before I ordered the materials, I would make sure the deposit check was in hand.
Cheers,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Howdy, I still kinda think that there are some people out there that don't consider vinyl lettering as valid sign material. They see the cheap stick on lettering at hardware stores and think that they are paying for the same product. Little do they know what it costs you to produce such a sign. Sometimes I think that one day people will be able to "design" their own signs, pop in a few bucks, and it will be printed out for them in a matter of minutes. Seven-11 coffee and signs all in one transaction.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3973 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Alicia makes a good point, since sign painting has taken a back burner, and now digital printing is taking over vinyl cutters. Vinyl cutters will now have to worry what do we do next? Simple learn all you can about "whats really going on" in the sign world." oye paisona como us esta la vida?
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I have an appointment for him to bring the truck back and I'll strip it and paint it.
There are always problems with the things unsaid, and everything can not always be said. Do others have difficulty with vinyl being received? Do you have a different pricing structure for paint from vinyl? Do you have a different pricing structure for customers that choose to dictate how a sign will be done?
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6849 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I price it both ways. I always add a little more to the ones that are more labor intensive or as a way to "encourage" a customer toward the direction I want them to go.
posted
This sounds like deja vu all over again. (YB)
Reminds me of a few years ago when a friend of mine was lettering his local municipality's trucks. They were always painted on. Tom thought he'd use vinyl this time & save some energy as it was all block lettering anyhow. Well the guy went berserk & demanded that it be removed & painted on. Tom complied. The guy never again brought trucks to be lettered. But it wasn't long after that, all their vehicles now have vinyl on 'm. Go figure.
Rick - Could use of a vinyl mask help any on the repaint?
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 705 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
ya I get these guys from time to time that think the only way a sign can be made is by painting it and its our job to teach them the advantages of vinyl over paint and to get with the times...man has been tieing hair to a stick for 1,000's of years and ribbing some kind on paint on stuff dont get me wrong im not bashing hand painting...i still hand letter but only when the job truely calls for it
-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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quote:Do you have a different pricing structure for customers that choose to dictate how a sign will be done?
You make it sound as if they are being difficult for wanting the truck to be painted rather than "vinyled". Call me old-fashioned (I am) but I would NOT want a truck with vinyl rather than paint unless there was a cost concern. NO OFFENSE to any of you vinyl advocates out there but IMHO you can see the difference. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who prefer vinyl so I'm not saying one way is better - it is simply a matter of preference and what you are used to.
The bottom line is that the customer should have the option to chose as long as he's willing to pay the bill. I liken it to hiring an interior decorator and not being able to chose what I'd like them to use to decorate the room.
I'd like to reiterate that I am NOT putting down the use of vinyl - it has it's place and purpose - what I'm addressing is that matter of choice.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3723 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
It doesnt help vinyls reputation when some shops knowingly sell economy grade vinyl to a customer expecting durability especially where trucks are concerned.
We all know that hp cast is going to outlast paint a lot of the time but some customers arent aware of that.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
I hate it when things like this happen. You can't cover every single detail in every job and no matter how hard you try, things just have a way of getting screwed up somtimes. I tell my customers that I am phasing out painting over high grade vinyl. I think you're being generous by replacing the job but at the very least I would explain to this client the virtues of high performance vinyl and help him to understand that you were sincere in your effort to provide him with a good product for the money you charged.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1299 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I agree with the many who suggest that, besides whatever other solutions occur, you should tell the client about the qualities of vinyl such as it's comparable resistance to fading, it's ability to be removed if a vehicle is sold (phone # changes etc.)& the life expectancy of it's adhesive.
Also since the re-do is costing you, I'd suggest the client accept a cash re-fund of whatever amount would be worth it to you to not have to re-do it. Then the client could try out vinyl lettering & if at anytime within say 6 mos. or a year, he could opt for the re-do for a price equal to the refund.
posted
My opinions of value are that something designed with a pencil on a paper napkin and lettered with a brush is worth more than something typed in with a font and altered and painted with a computer cut mask. Both are paint. What about the hand drawn design that gets scanned and done in vinyl? What about the computer font that gets hand lettered without the rhythem of the music in an artist coming out in his letters? Is it more than just vinyl vs. paint?
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6849 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I would submit that each client wants an end result, call it a product or call it a solution, that you are being asked to provide. As you find out about the desired product you are determining in your own mind how best to create it and then to educate the client as to what choices and methods are available.
Some customers think of vinyl lettering and graphics, or anything else that originates on a computer, as a commodity .... or at least as something that is inherently easier and of less value. Most of us know that this is not the case and that a well executed job in vinyl is often the better choice among various mediums where durability, repeatability, maintainability and price are considerations.
Good design, be it the result of having the talent and experience to execute it with a brush or a computer graphics application, is still good design and should be what separates you from your competition. And I know too many otherwise very competent and good people in this business that make a habit of giving away their design time and ideas for free to make a sale instead of selling the client on themselves first as the solution and then charging accordingly.
[ February 22, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Fred Weiss ]
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
This is how our municipality speced street name signs for a tender.
"The following street name signs are required in 6" x 24" long with white letters on green background as they appear below. Silkscreen process or equivalent shall be used for street names. Adhesive lettering is not acceptable. Abbreviation of street suffix is not acceptable. Suffix shall be made smaller print than street name."
No mention of reflective... some of the street names required are
SMOKEY MOUNTAIN ROAD
MACDONALD CRESCENT as well as short ones like LUCE STREET .. gonna look real nice on a 6" x 24" sign if you can't abbreviate the suffix.
The same tender called for 4' x' 8's also silkscreened on 1/8" (.125) solid aluminum.
I don't know where they pull these specs from...
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
quote: Sign shall be painted on a sheet of 3/4" marine grade plywood with 2 coats of primer and three coats of alkyd enamel. Supports shall be 4"x6" timbers at least 6 feet in the ground set in cement and four feet above grade. Support shall have 2 horizontal cross members of 2x4s plus 2 2x4s forming an X, all assembled with 3/4" lag bolts.
All of this for a temporary sign!
[ February 22, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It seems like I get a thrown a "curve ball" like this every once in a while. If this had happened to me, I would have asked him right away to go out for a cup of coffee, and asked him 1. the appearence of the job ok? Price ok?, and re-hash his thoughts and concerns over vinyl.
The number 1 issue is that the advertising value of the job is not compromised. The medium the job is done in, paint vs vinyl, is NOT the issue, and can't be.
By doing this job in vinyl you saved your client some money. Does he know that? Does he know the value of savings of futrue expenses he will incur to have paint removed compared to the cost of vinyl? He needs to be educated and some common sense reasoning included. He need to be showen you had his best interests in mind.
I don't think I would redo the job! I would rather bargin or negotiate a solution, even if it were to reduce the cost....then I would make sure he knew he was not welcome back in our shop ever again.
The customer is not always right, and if unreasonable, he don't need to be a customer anymore.
Since you are the professional, and he isn't, then your professional judgement is sound and not negotiable. Sitck up for your belief in why the job was done the way it was. Backing down only proves you had doubts to begin with.
I always throw it back on the customer, say if he were a plumber or concrete / masonry expert. Would I insist that he do a job different than what is professionaly the norm and not cost effective.? Absolutely not! I would trust his judgment.
Rick, you did your professional best, now stick up for yourself. You did nothing wrong. If there is any blame, the customer has to share in it for not making specifications.
posted
Rick, I think there is "value" in design beyond the time it takes to do the work. (design can be done on the computer or done on a napkin or done with a brush).
I also think that well designed, hand painted work should cost more than vinyl work (for similar jobs) because the COST of the labor is higher. I can do vinyl installations to rival many of you. I cannot paint as well as many of you.
so, a painted truck should cost more, because your time is worth more. an apprentice can install vinyl, but it takes a master or journeyman to paint a truck well.
i'd offer to do the job over, in paint, as long as he pays you the difference. you'll eat the first job, but at least you'll be properly paid for the second one.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Man, You are the artist, and I would stick to that. Unless he specified paint it was your perogative. I started using vinyl in 1981, always 3m hp but the first two years I used it,for Dow, I only used it to cut a mask for paint, as Dow Specified painted signs. after a while, I talked to the buyer about it and he decided I should just try to use vinyl only and see how it did, compared to paint on block entry signs. After 3 years they wrote into their specs to use vinyl on everything, it is still that way today. Bill
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I try to apply all my specs for a job on the work order/proof sheet. I do very little hand lettering so it's not a category on my sheet. If I did both I think I would have a check box beside paint, and vinyl so that the question could be eliminated. Having the customer sign off on proofs and specs saves me a lot of trouble.
It decreases my margin for error signifigantly!
Later down the road, days or months, If I pull a previous order I never have to wonder... "How did I do that last time ?" it's always a matter of record. For me all this paper filing is a matter of discipline (hate that word) but it pays off time and time again.
Hope that is of some help !
Steve
-------------------- Steve Aycock Designs 3489 Oswald St. Johns Island, SC zaor@warpdriveonline.com Posts: 124 | From: Charleston, SC | Registered: Feb 2003
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