posted
Asked last Thursday by a guy I buy a lotta substrate from for a quote on a sign on his building .... 16ftx8ft wall.
Faxed quote (good price!) plus design on Friday morning. Please note, it was a new logo I designed for the extention of his business.
Cruised past today on the way to another job and it's there on the Wall! Letter and layout perfect to my design! Except, phone and fax numbers at the bottom have been reversed into the bottom border ..... 5% difference ... I aint got a leg to stand on copywrite.
Do I alieniate the supplier by hand him a bill for the design? I do get good deals there ... not worth the hassle. Find out who did the finished job and sue his arse
Don't fret the 5% thing... That's a crutch thieves use to hide behind. You are entitled to your design and a minor change doesn't change the fact that they STOLE it. Expose the customer for the low life piece of crap that he is and demand your due.
Then go over to the sign guy and let him know in no uncertain terms what a bottom feeder he/she is, too. Make sure all the sign people around you know what happened to make sure that the putrid sumbitch don't do it to anyone else again.
By the way, I would find a new supplier. If they think so little of you to steal your layout, makes me wonder about their other business practices.
Have a great one.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6466 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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John, That just Sux! I would most certainly bring it to his attention, no question about it. I would inform him that you get paid for you're time. Maybe he did'nt ask you to design a new logo, is that something you took upon yourelf? but even if you did, he has NO Right to use it. I know you get good deals from this guy and you consider him a good supplier, well maybe it's time he supplies you with some product for your design, if you approch it in a the right way, if he's a decent type of Guy, he'll understand. Some people just don't have a clue, he probably did'nt think anything of it, using you're design, then again, there are people who just USE People also.
Good Luck!
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Bruce we must've been typing at the same time..lol It must be a little earlier there, I had my coffee, so I guess my reply is a little softer, but I do agree with everything you said also, but maybe trying to get the scum bag supplier to cough up some material will work, but if it don't "Go Get Him Jon!"
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Whether the supplier knew or not, the sign shop did. We've all been in the situation of having a client bring in a sketch from another shop. How bad does business have to be to steal from your brothers? There's no excuse, expose the scumbag!
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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I had a customer walk in the other day with a design from another shop. I told him I couldnt use another companies design. He asked why and I told him it wouldnt be ethical. So I designed a better one anyway which got me the job instead.
Most people aren't comfortable with confrontation but this is what needs to be done. You may or may not find a way to resolve this but even if you dont I guarantee you will feel better getting it off of your chest.
I had the same situation happen ten years ago with me. When I saw my exact design done I called the guy screaming at him like a raging maniac. I threatened to sue him for plagerism and tormentented loss and suffering and any other legal sounding bull feces I could conjur up. I demanded $100.00 for my design time and you know what? He paid it...
He tried to pass the blame on to his father but I didnt care. I just wanted what was due. He was out of business a very short time later.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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Jon, If you had $100. laying on a bench in your shop..and this "Supplier" came in and took $95 of it????????/ Would this not be STEALING ???????
Stealing your Sketch is the same darn thing....any way you look at it......
I would get some money or materials from him for compensation..or take his arse to Small Claims Court.....and pay a personal visit to my competition......and let him know he may be liable as a party to this claim......If the competition says he "Didn't know that this was not "Kosher"...then now would be a good time to educate him as well.......
Good Luck Shep' "Been there done that"
-------------------- Arvil Shep' Shepherd Art by Shep' -------- " Those who dance are thought to be mad by those who cannot hear the music " Posts: 1281 | From: Mt Airy NC | Registered: Mar 2001
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I'm not assuming you did this Jon...but a lot of guys set themselves up for this kind of hassle when the advertise "Free Estimates".
For all my "new" customers I attach a disclaimer to my sketches informing them the design belongs to me and can be used only with my permission...I have collected on it quite a few times.
What happened to you was definetly out of line and I sure wouldn't have any trouble taking this guy and his "Signee" to task.
You know best what the cicumstances are ...you'll do the correct thing I'm sure...sure ****es you off tho, no matter wgat you do!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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"Please note, it was a new logo I designed for the extention of his business."
Sorry Jon, but how many times has this one come up on here? If you designed the logo, you should have charged him for it. No sketch leaves the shop..........you know the rest. Everybody on here has screwed up in this fashion more than once, it's easy to do. Stopping it is the hard part. The problem with these things is they don't happen often enough for us to be wary of doing it again. Take and make a copy of the logo and paste it in a prominent place in your shop as a daily reminder.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Jon, I've had a lot of experience with copyright laws in this country, and would advise against persuing it in that direction, just to save yourself the extreme grief. I would probably take a copy of this post and send it to every sign company that you know that he services, including the one that he used for the sign. They could possibly be innocent also, unless you are certain that they are not. Most legitamate businesses will understand your fury, and maybe it will end up haunting the perpetrator. I certainly don't think the truth, bears anything "liable" which would be your only legal concern. Good luck.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Jon, You didn't mention the size of the business. Could it be an employee that was assigned the task of procuring this sign and the owner trusted that ethical behavior would follow?
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6836 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Jon, on the bottom of ALL my drawings I have a notice:
This design is the sole property of Signgraphics, and may not be copied or reproduced in any way without paying a reasonable and just fee according to industry standards.
This has worked for me well through the years.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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Isn't that just a p*****??? This stuff just irks me. From years ago....I still see a couple of my designs on furniture trucks driving around. On the bottom of my designs I also put something similar to John Arnotts words. But mostly, I never give my designs out unless they are paid for anymore. After they have paid for the design...I guess they can do what they want. Alot of people fail to realize how long sign designs take and what amount of thought goes into them.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Working on a 4 x 4 aluminum sign right now. I went to see the customer and they showed me the printout of how they wanted it to look. It was just a small black sketch done on the computer so I thought the wife had done it themselves.
Then they explained that the other signguy in town did it. I told them that I wouldn't copy the design because that wouldn't be right to do so. The thing looked butt ugly anyway and there was nothing at all on the paper besides the sketch.
I have a nice long fine print on the bottom of my design sketches that covers my ass.
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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Maybe start the conversation with the supplier by asking (under the guise that it is for the betterment of your business)what amount of savings they gained over your quote, to get so & so to do their sign. When you know the price difference, you could then point out the value of the design work so & so didn't have to do, as the fee you are charging. So & so already landed the work & the profit that goes with it, but the supplier needs to realize that he could only save money this way, by stealing from you. He can't reverse the reputation of stealing, but face to face he can choose to either return what was stolen, or choose to further tarnish his reputation for said price.
posted
I also use the C.Y.A. legend on my designs. I have saved it as a graphic in my sign program to make it hassle free to add.
However, I am told by an attorney friend that I should also print up something to be signed and dated by the customer stating that he agrees that the design is my property and that use of it may be considered theft in a court of law.
-------------------- Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist. Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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I have to say you kinda walked in into this one, by not charging for design or sending a fax without a elgal statement, implies no worth to your logo design or layout. I think you can try sending a bill for services rendered but I think your gonna eat this one. Right of the bat, a Logo is not signage or layout, but design, and that takes time, as well as experience, you know the value and stating upfront would have probably prevented this mess. I guess it's a good reminder for all of us, thanks for sharing. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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I believe copyright infringment is governed by US law and I'm not sure if grievience are settled on state level case or not. I do know that the penalties for infringement, are only 15% of the sold items value, unless it considered by the court as a "blantent case of infringement" where one might recieve full value. My copyright atty, informs me that punitive damages may be assessed, but in almost all cases, are not. Also he has never seen a case which included jailtime which is provided for in the list of remedies.
I recently had a case involving about $70,000, and found out that my part of the net was going to be only about 30% of that. My only hope was to get added punitive damage, which my atty assured me would not happen. Being a long a drawn out battle with a major company, led me to drop the case. I'm finding out the copyright law really isn't worth the paper it is written on. It will only make the lawyers fat. If you are in question, call a lawyer and try to get him to proceed with a case. 99% of them will not even take the case. Sad remedies for honest people.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Let us know how it turned Out Jon. I have a feeling that you don't want to stir up the pot too much, quite understandable when you have a good relationship with a supplier.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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disclaimers lamers. All they are is a scare tactic. 9 out of 10 times you get burnt, it will cost you more $$ to fight them than it's worth. The underlying problem is letting a design leave the shop without money exchanging hands. Get paid for the design before it leaves your hands. If someone else does the sign....you werent too good of a salesman. If you get the job...you did your job correctly. Tell em that the design fee will be deducted from the price of the sign if you get the job. That way their into you for some money and mays well finish off the job with you.
There's not an architect in the world that is gonna make you the blueprints for your house and then let you walk off and decide whether you want it or not. He's gonna charge you for it. Why would a sign design be any different?
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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This guy is a regular customer of signs and supplier of substrates I pay cash for. I have already painted over the existing panel twice so there was no need to go and take measurements etc.
He phoned me for a quote/layout and in all good faith I faxed him back .... HTF I can charge for that?
I intend to chew his arse next time I'm in there to buy some stuff. Also find out who undercut me and give him heaps too!!!!!! But I ain't busting to reclaim $60 worth design time (simple layout) ... just the principal pings me off
posted
Doing work for someone with whom you have an ongoing business relationship can have a different set of rules. Jon acted "in good faith" and got burned, that changes those rules. I'd be going over to ask "What the f***??!!", and to let him know, in no uncertain terms, that your time and your ideas are worth money.
You say you buy a lot of material from him; is this your only supplier? If it is, confront him and ask for a discount on your next purchase. If you have a choice, stop buying from him. Ask him what your business is worth to him? A lot of people get caught up in the "look we can same some money here" thinking and don't consider the implications.
You might want to know what hand your competition had in this as well. Sometimes the lack of ethics practiced by people in this biz just gags me. Example: I was lettering in a boat yard a few years ago, and gave a couple of other owners quotes on lettering. An employee of another business at the yard, who apparently was also a part-time signpainter, came through right behind me, undercutting my quotes! Rather than confront her directly, I went to her boss (who had a canvas shop) with something like, "hey, if I hire some help and buy a sewing machine, can I come back and offer discounts to your customers?" Then I told him what his employee had been doing. Judging by his reaction, (a variation on the "WHAT? You gotta be SH*****G me! response) I would like to have been a fly on the wall for their subsequent conversation.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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You can talk all day about small claims court, billing for design time etc. but the reality is if it is only $50-100, you are better off spending that time doing something productive. Preventative measures like notices on drawings and signed papers can help to head off problems for yourself but I also beleive taking an active role in educating customers and working with other shops will help alot in the long run. I get computer designed layouts brought to me all the time, most are homemade, some are from ad agencies, some are from other shops that either have the letterhead cut off or sometimes right on the shops stationary. I always ask who did the drawing (that helps my not to stick my foot in my mouth to deep when they say their wife did it) and if it came from another shop, I let them know I can't use it. If I feel that they are just shopping the drawing, I will call that shop and inform them what is happening to their drawing. This helps me as far a getting a reputation for being ethical and encourages the other shops to do the same for me if someone is shopping my drawing. I never never never do a drawing unless I have a commitment that I am doing the job, but sometimes that regular customer or someone who lies to you will take advantage of you.
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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Hi Jon, The same thing happened to me, only it was a friend that let me know he used my layout on a wall sign. He was not aware that it was being used without my permission. I called my lawyer and he advised me to write a letter asking for payment for the layout or face a court case. The check was in the mail the next day.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I did the same thing to a long time customer of mine. When I later saw 'my design' hanging from their building, I confronted the owner. (not the guy who requested the sign) I was never called back there again. Seems the owner got ticked that I challenged him.
Moral of my story, don't even trust a long time customer. If we send artwork along with quote, it's a risk we are taking. If someone requests a quote AND artwork, I mention quotes come first, then artwork follows once quote conditions are met.
I still cheat to this day, trusting regular customers, but I know each time I do it I'm taking a risk.
Sorry you got burned this time round Jon. We all have our turn it seems.
posted
I had a situation where I redid a good client's logo because what he provided was awful. It was fairly time consuming and I made a sample of the before and after for him and offered to use it in his work for a setup fee of $300. At the time he had an order in for two 4 x 8 site signs that had already been quoted.
He turned the offer down pointing out that no one would be within 50 feet of the signs anyway. The next time he came in he ordered almost $2000 worth of work and demanded that I use the reworked logo in place of the inferior one.
So I did and quietly added $300 into what I charged him for the signs. He thinks I knuckled under which saved his ego and I still got paid.
Daddy used to say: Son .... don't get mad .... get even.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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