posted
A recent post about hourly pricing generated some real excitement here in Letterville. I really feel this is a subject that we need to really look at. I can tell you from personal experience that many will be shocked at the fiqures you will come up with.
Many talented, dedicated Letterheads are working 7 days a week, yet constantly discouraged by the bottom line each year. We all know in our hearts that something is wrong and a change is in order.
Change is always hard. It takes courage to admit that "our way" is just not working. For some, change will require facing some fear and self-esteem issues. I've learned from our travels and chats with you that I am not the only person who worries about fear of rejection, fear of people and fear of failure. Fear chews away at your guts and sadly prevents many from realizing their true potential. If you are really sick and tired of being sick and tired, let's begin to do something about it together.
The first step is knowledge. We're going to learn what we need to charge per hour in order to reach a financial goal. Our first job is to learn what it costs to run our personal household each year.
Each of us needs to break out a calculator and pencil. The first thing to determine is what you need to bring home each month to support your lifestyle and family. What are your housing costs, groceries, heat, electricity, insurance, clothing, etc, etc, costs? At the end of this exercise you need to know what you need,as well as what you would like to make a year. We'll use this as a starting point to determine what your shop rate HAS to be.
Here's some info you need to read before we get started.
An excellent article on determining your hourly shop rate by Jeff Cahill. Thanks SignCraft.
We'll need is a really good worksheet. Jeff Cahill includes one in his article. We can use this or expand on his and create one of our own that we can each print out. Anyone interested in looking after this chore?
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
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I know from experience that even with minimal overhead if I want to earn $20 per hour I need to charge at least double or triple that that.
In our little operation I charge out at $100 per hour if I am billing by the hour. That doesn't mean that I earn $800 per day however. Even if I manage 8 out of 8 hours at my desk - not all my time is billable. I find even on productive days I can't charge all my time to customers, it wouldn't be fair.
On quoted jobs I like to do considerably better than an hourly rate as I am also taking on risk. If something goes wrong I have to make up the difference.
And on what I do bill I personally only get to keep what is left over after ALL the company expenses are paid.
The company needs some money left in reserve to pay the ongoing bills, insurance, tools, new programs, equipment, carry inventory and especially pay taxes. I hope you make enough money to pay taxes. Our company owns and maintains a top quality vehicle, tool trailer and even a travel trailer to use on our out of town worksites, or as an office locally on sites.
The company paid for my new camera, and purchased a new computer and a bunch of other stuff this past year too. The business even paid for our recent trip to Florida.
It will also build me new shop and studio when the time comes... all legitimate and worthy expenses.
When all is said and done I want to be well paid for my creative skills that I have spend decades developing. I'm 49 years old now, and I if I don't start capitalizing on my hard earned skills now, WHEN WILL IT HAPPEN???
My time is valuable to me and to my family too.
And my dreams for the future won't come cheap.
Don't sell yourselves short.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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This is exactly what I've been saying for years and is the subject of the seminars I give at the NBM shows. The articles you mention are some of the most important things anyone could possibly read to start a new sign business or improve an exisiting one. They set me on the road to profits and inspired EstiMate directly.
However, you don't need to design a worksheet. I've done one better with ProfitWatch. It's absolutely free software designed to help a shop figure the proper hourly rate for their work. . Download ProfitWatch here
Click the link above and scroll down to the bottom of the page. You can download ProfitWatch and also the course materials from my class "The Key To Profitability: Determining The Proper Hourly Rate."
The course materials include the printed worksheets and explain the necessary math to do this manually.
And by all means, whatever you do, don't think you can charge $20 per hour and make a living - no matter what!
[ February 17, 2003, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Mark Smith ]
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Here's what I know. I am a one man shop, I work out of my home where I have built a 1200 sq ft shop attached to my home. I work full time at another sign related job (outdoor advertising). My weekly hours for my business average 20-25 hours. My overhead costs me $30/hr. I set aside $10/hr for capital (read profit) to re-invest in the business. And I estimate a minimum of $25/hr for ME. That totals $65/hr + material. And that is my shop rate. All of my work is pre-priced; in other words I estimate the entire job and that figure is the quote the client receives. If I make an error in my estimate, I eat it. and that will convince anyone to double check time estimates against actual time. If the client requests a change in mid-job he gets an estimate of the cost before we proceed. My dilema is what I've come to refer to as "The Hump". I don't plan to stay at my full time job much longer, but the volume of work I need to bring in to cover that income is well over 100K. And I don't know where that is going to come from. Or if I can manage it when it gets here!
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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No matter how you figure it, you will have to deal with the competition's pricelines. If their prices are less for the same products and the same quality of products, then you must contend with his pricing format. Theirs will eventually win out, if you don't. You say, how can this be. Well, some craftsman are twice as fast and efficient at the same chore. Striving for this is what puts your prices on the bottom and your profits on the top. I agree that a good method should be implemented for searching for that figure to be fair to your customer and yourself, but don't forget the reducing factor...... Your competition.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by bronzeo: No matter how you figure it, you will have to deal with the competition's pricelines. If their prices are less for the same products and the same quality of products, then you must contend with his pricing format.
No, no, no, no, no!
Salesmanship is what this is all about. Your competition might be lowballing prices, but if you are strong and well-prepared with professional paperwork and a bevy of beautiful photographs of your work, you can land plenty of jobs at your own prices. IMHO you should never let the competition influence your pricing.
That said, there is some value in looking at the overall pricing in your market. If the average price for a 4x8 is $275, you'll have trouble selling one for $400.
Unless you're Glenn Taylor. Then you'll get $750. (True story!)
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Mark.. NO NO NO NO! Well sorta... How many 4x8's does Glenn sell for $750.00?
If you think that price is not influenced by competition, well I have some land for sale.
Even when it's influenced by competition, you still have to have great salesmanship. I know that's sad, but it's true. I believe pricing is way out of wack with today's cost of living, I was getting almost the same for 4x8's 20 years ago as I am today. And it is because of computers, like it or not. But we made more money on the signs back then. I know of one guy who used to handletter 2 vans or even 3 vans a day back in the 70's, at around $300.00 each or Higher, but today he does hardly any vans, I just don't see his work anymore, not like I used to anyway.
But what you are saying does have truth to it, We have to try to sell our talents and abilities and give the customer a little more than what average computer shop sells, that's where the salesmanship comes in.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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I know I will put a thorn in many Peoples Paws.
I don't beleive in the One Stop Shop Rate. I work with the base of Talent Rate.
Here goes!
Flat rate for "Pop It Out" and stick it on (Plain Jane Style) $35.00 per hour Most of this is in house fonts and vinyl colours.
Airbrushing is a talent ordeal with coming up with the Design and transfering it to the medium. Helmets,Leathers,Tanks etc. Design cost is a base price depending on detail. Airbrushing is a rate of a dollar a minute with Clear Coating cost additional.(how many layers?)
Carving is a new animal in itself. We all know what is involved in this! Materials,Style of Carving,Finishes,plus anything that comes along as a surprise!
Handlettering is time comsumption. (one,two,three,colours with additional airbrush work on top of it.)Watching the paint dry!
Protraits Painting works on Size and how many people you want in the picture (Detail still counts on the price as well)Oils,Acrylics,Airbrushing.
I will never say I charge so much an hour but I do charge to the degree of the job needs.
Computer (Vector or Full design Logos) is priced on the base that once it is done, It is now owned by the customer and they have the right to walk and talk to anyone for their signage.
We all hope they come back for the service, but you know the consumer.
We all work on the base of our ablility of talent and it is the most important part of making the income to support the house hold.
Even Digital Prints are based on "So much per inch" or Linear foot plus Design Time,Application and not on hourly rates.
So as I said I rather work with pricing of the PROJECT then Hourly Rates.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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I was definitely trying to be funny with the no,no,no,no,no - please don't take it any other way.
As far as the $750 4x8 goes, naturally he won't make many of them - but let me point out that if he'd charged $300 and made $50 on it, in this case he made $500 - and therefore can skip the next nine $300 4x8s and go fishing.
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Let me ask this, and anyone can feel free to answer.
If the average going price, in your surrounds using COMPARABLE materials and workmanship was 300.00 for your service or product. Would you charge 500.00, if you could get it? Consider that the 300. would cover your needs. I'm not speaking of an open bidding session, but more on overcharging a customer that stands with checkbook in hand and needs your services.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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I agree with Neil. What I am after is a fair price, not one that gouges the customer. By that I mean fair to both of us.
Another thing to keep in mind (and you can actually use this argument with a customer, I have, and successfully): your long-term physical and financial health is in your customer's best interest! That way you continue to be around to service them, and don't work to yourself into the ground.
Aside to Steve Shortreed: Thank you for providing such an excellent forum for people to talk about things like this that directly affect their future. We all have so much to learn and it's best done through a community like Letterville!
Like Steve alluded to, that's the dirty little secret of the sign business, and really any small service business - working yourself into the ground and believing cash flow equals profits. Profit is the nest egg that slowly builds up behind you while the cash flow runs in front of you.
[ February 17, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Mark Smith ]
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I get tired of people like Steve and Mark stirring up the pot about profitability and proper hourly rates.
If I have learned anything from this board,it is that it is most important to be busy and have lots of work. And I sure as hell don't want to be out of line with my competitors pricing, for that is the road to hell with the sin being price gouging.
A recent example is that I went to this restaurant where they charged me and my wife around $16 each for dinner. What an outrage? I have never spent more than four bucks for a meal at McDonalds or Burger King in my life and have gone away quite full too. A class action lawsuit is in the works on that one, I guarantee you.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Here's a often-overlooked factor that has some influence in determining an "appropriate" hourly rate: The wants and needs of some of the more "senior" members will vary from those who have recently entered the profession. Example: Someone in their mid to late 50's may very well have their kids grown and moved out, have their mortgage paid off, and have virtually no debt load that has to be serviced through monthly payments. That means it takes substantially LESS to satisfy their needs, and thus they can "get by" comfortably on less income than those carrying the expenses of car/truck payments, mortgage on home/business etc.
In that circumstance, it may be possible to take a lower hourly rate, but that puts the newer shops at a disadvantage. Also, the temptation is there to price things as one remembered them to be, rather than what their actual worth may be in TODAY'S ECONOMY.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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so mr wright...the meal that was $16 p/p and the $4 micky d's meal were the same?? same crappy hamburg and bun...frozen/fried french fries and a mcdessert? in that case i would be outraged...but if you went to a nice restaurant and had an entre w/ salad, dinner rolls and a little atomsphere then you are not comparing apples to apples. i think what steve was referring to in his post was the different hourly rates for different talents....of course i wouldn't charge the same for typical no brain font vinyl letters on aluminum as i would for a sign that requires a little thought and creative spirit...if you do then that's your poor business sense...i don't like to ripp people off no more than i like to ripp myself off...and i sure in hell have more self respect than that!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I have a small sign hanging on my office wall: BETHEL HILL SIGNS PRICING IS FIGURED IN ORDER TO PROVIDE THE BEST POSSIBLE SERVICE TO YOU, THE CUSTOMER AND TO INSURE THE CONTINUED VIABILITY OF BETHEL HILL SIGNS THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATRONAGE I believe that is the most important statement I could possible make to the public concerning how my pricing is structured.
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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Those seniors you mention shouldn't take a lower hourly rate because their expenses are lower - they should take a higher one because they are closer to retirement. IMHO.
Pricing based on memory is just another argument for them to fill out an hourly rate worksheet and build in substantial profits!
[ February 17, 2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Mark Smith ]
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It boils down to the fact that you're really not selling a product, you're selling your time. The more time you make available to your clients, the less it's worth - supply and demand. How you choose to use that time is up to you. Remember, you're the expert with the experience. The the real point is what is your time worth? Mark's software helps you with that. Personally, I'd rather be known as expensive and good and enjoy the days of fishing & time spent with family. When I first moved out here to PA, I interviewed with quite a few sign companies and I was told that I wanted too much for my time. Nearly double the "going rate" for someone with my experience. After knocking on enough doors, I finally found someone who thought my hourly rate was fair & they hired me. After the sale of my employers business and 9-11, I was pounding pavement again but, now, with the knowledge that more people are willing to pay my price. Rather than work for less, I invested my time wisely and learned more about my career. Within a short period of time, I was back to work and making more money. There's been a few comments made here over the years that really have stuck with me. These are not directed at anyone, so don't take offense if they strike a nerve. If you're not making any money in the sign business, get out, so the rest of us can - charge as much as you can while keeping a straight face - You're only as good as the last sign you make - I'd rather be known as expensive & good rather than cheap & fast And for the record, I think Cam has the record for the highest price for a mdo sign.
Havin' fun, Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Do you flip the burger for $4.00 bucks or offer the gourme meal for $16.00
It's still up to the (Customer On What They Want!)
Do you go to a General Practitioner or the Specialize to your needs in life? The G/P says "so much a visit" (with little info) But you have to go to a Specialist!
The Specialist will tell you that! (We don't charge by the hour, But we will service to all your needs!) It still works on Talent of that Person to trust in helping you.
Business is a Hungry Animal theses days and the best avenue is the eye catching pieces..
Zoom!Zoom!......Zoom! Oh sorry that's Television!
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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Here's a term that I'll throw out to y'all---"CONSULTATIVE SELLING". Give the customer more reasons to deal with you than just price. Granted, this won't apply for every job/customer. But how do you know that the price the customer is throwing in your face from your competition is for a comparable product? Do you both use EXACTLY the same materials? Do you both do EXACTLY the same layout? Hardly. Just because you both use One-Shot to coat out your boards doesn't make his the same as yours---do you coat yours twice or 3 times perhaps? Do you take extra time to seal the edge somehow.
Any quote going out my door always had on it "Quoted using Quality High Performance 2-mil vinyl", etc etc. If it was the right customer, I wanted tp give him information (or ammo!) that made him more likely to be trusting and want to do business with me.
This is a very long and extensive topic. Kudos to Steve for brining it up and starting the ball rolling. I don't think the idea is so much that everyone needs to charge the same. I think the point is that everyone needs to charge SIMILAR rates. You/we are all experts in our field. Our talents deserve to be rewarded.
Does anyone feel that they need to do EVERY job that walks in the door?
posted
sooo he's just messin' with my mind???? ...what's left of it that is!....and i thought i was the queen of sarcasm...ok dude...i'll be watchin' you!! LOL
ps...i still want to make more $$!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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That's great Glenn! Can we see a photo of them?
Now before you go and think that I'm being skeptical, I'm most certainly am not, cause I know you're work is Fantastic and well worth what you charge, it's just I can't seem to educate people on this type of work.
But what do you charge on Average for a 4x8? Or is that what you get all the time?
The most I ever got for a 4x8 is around $500 and that's Canadian dollars.
[ February 17, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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People sometimes ask me why my company is called Signs Limited, instead of Signs Unlimited. I look them square in the eye, smile sweetly, and say: I don't want to do them all, only yours
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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When I get home, I'll post it for you. Its actually very plain. Just a standard 4x8, single-faced with text and a seal. The only thing different is that it is on 1/4" Alumalite; the entire face is Edge printed; and it is laminated with Gerber's UV Guard.
It takes me about 2 hours to do one sign from start to finish if I'm working by myself.
As Mark pointed out, its all about salesmanship. And, a big part of salesmanship is being able to fulfill a client's need. In this case, they have a problem with the signs failing prematurely and with vandals. I'll give you the details when I post the pic tonight.
[ February 17, 2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Since I work at a specialized design firm, they usually have a fixed fee proposal, Signage might be at an estimated hourly rate, or a logo will be priced at a certain amount with only a number of submittals past that, it either goes hourly or gets a negotiated fee. The "template" for a proposal for a graphic design firm is a like like what is described in "Architectural Signing and Graphics" by John Follis and David Hammer. Most projest, we have deal with Identity, wayfinding(lots of planning) multiple signs and sign types (sometimes near a thousand) design, design developement, construction drawings and construction administration. I'm sure a designers hourly rate is 125.00 and goes down to probably 100 for drafting and or construction administration. It is tracked and billed in increments at certain times of the project. I have worked at a few design firms, and it's not unusual to have $500,000.00 design projects at one given moment, though as hard as some beleive this work to exist, it does. If anyone want to know more about this kind of work, you might try www.segd.org there is also a conference and Expo in Las Vegas this year. Though I think the info is still pending on the website, you can call them and they can send it to you. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thanks, Checkers. You may be right. We did a 4x8, on flat MDO, single-faced, all paint, for a restaurant in spring of '99 for $2,500. That included a rooftop installation, on brackets we designed and built, and involved a one-hour ferry ride each way. Basically installation took two men for half a day, and a helper for another $25.
I've written about it several times, so I've heard all the responses - from price-gouging to being called a liar. Whatever. I cashed the check. Anyone else can believe what they want. I still have the client; they have spent something close to $22000 over several years, including seven carved signs, the 4x8 above, another 2x8 MDO sign for $1850, and any number of small directional or informational signs.
As for the accusations of gouging, the client has the choice to hire anyone they want to do their signs. There's plenty of shops around; I'd bet all of them would offer to do most of these signs for less money. Price gouging can only happen when a client has NO choices and is forced to purchase from a monopoly.
So how did I get a client like this? An employee of this company saw my portfolio at a high-school career day, and had me call his boss. I sold them a $3000 carved sign in 1998. They got the sign they wanted, on time, with good customer service, and since then have called repeatedly with further work. As far as I know they don't call anyone else and shop around, they get premium products and services for premium prices. My last sale to them was for $6400 last October. Oh, BTW, they also pay half down and balance COD. No questions asked, ever.
Reading over this, I probably sound like I'm bragging. Oh well. As Dizzy Dean used to say, "It ain't braggin' if you can do it."
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: As for the accusations of gouging, the client has the choice to hire anyone they want to do their signs. ....... Price gouging can only happen when a client has NO choices and is forced to purchase from a monopoly.
Good Going Cam. is there any chance that you might have a Photo of that sign?
You know I was wondering, if it would be proper to display some of the work you Guys do in out Showroom. Along with a description on how it was made and the type of materials, along with the price charged, it may be a great selling tool, and it just might answer some questions when clients question the work and or Price that we are charging. Just a thought.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:they get premium products and services for premium prices
I believe in this way of doing business TOTALLY.
I carefully protect my reputation of being expensive. But at the same time my customers know that they get full value for what I charge too. Even on my website I clearly state... If you want ordinary DON"T CALL US.
For every 10 enquiries I field I can expect one or 2 to turn into actual jobs. I spend a little time with each prospective client either on the phone or in person. Together we determine their needs and whether we fit. If not we part ways amicably, often with a referal to someone down the road.
The keepers are the clients I really want. They understand that value is not determined by price alone.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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The one thing to remember is: Be honest with yourself! Hopefully filling out these worksheets with every detail and expense will force you to see what kinda overhead you *REALLY* have and quit kidding yourself. When you see it all spelled out on paper or on-screen it becomes real.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
for most of us, there is not "apples to apples" comparrison on signs produced for small companies (which is what we're dealing with on this Bullboard). If you're pricing out signs for national accounts (say, McDonalds or Texaco), then you're probably not here.
the sign that _I_ make is going to be different than the rest of you -- because _I_ will have designed it. that doesn't mean i'm a "better" designer (i'm probably not), but it means you can't sell "me" -- you can only sell "you".
in case you want to believe that Glen exists in some magical place where people pay more, i just sold a 4x8 (painted or vinyl, temporary construction sign) for $500 (including layout). the other guy bid $350 (including layout). So, my $500 sign probably includes more time budget for design time than the other guy. well, i'd rather make my money sketcing than by making lots of cheap signs.
i showed up for a meeting, had samples of my work, and i look like somebody who makes $500 signs. (i've only been in business full time for about 16 months).
customers aren't just buying a sign, they are buying a sign from YOU. you can offer: extra service extra design longer warranty faster turn-around more hand-holding great convenience closer location better hours nicer showroom more prestige and the list goes on. none of those factors changes the basic cost of the materials, but any of them can allow you to charge MORE for the "same" sign.
so, if you want to charge what the other guy does, fine. but if you want to charge more, there are plenty of reasons that you can.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Neil - I would advise against displaying someone else's work, even though you are doing it as a comparison (and as a compliment to the designer). Sell your work and your designs - that is what the customer will be receiving. Use those photos of work you admire for inspiration and sources of ideas, but keep them to yourself.
That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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...what's left of it that is!....and i thought i was the queen of sarcasm...ok dude...i'll be watchin' you!! LOL
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