posted
I'm buying a plotter. I'm buying some stock. $5000 max. I'm charging $20 an hour for my time and materials at cost. I own a prime location...I have no rent to pay. Can't dismiss me as a no-talent peel'n'stick because I have talent. As long as I make $20 an hour I'm happy.
But when I invest in REAL equipment, with REAL capabilities, and hire staff, then my prices will go up.
Until then, if a sign takes me an hour to design and make, my customer will get it for $20 plus material at cost.
And no, I won't be out of business in a year's time....that's just wishful thinking.
-------------------- Roger Berry/Rajja Barrio Subway Discount Furniture/ Dura Graph Sign Systems 63 Main St Truro, NS B2N 4G7 Posts: 8 | From: / | Registered: Sep 2002
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So your electricity, gas, snow removal and such is not costing you anything? What hapens when you have to redo a job, or better yet redo a job in a years time when you have employees and more overhead. Why leave money on the table? If you start with very cheap, your customers will always expect those prices, even when you have staff and overhead.
Good Luck, you're going to need it.
-------------------- Glenn Thompson Tell-Tale Signs Williams Lake, BC sign@telus.net (250)398-7446 Posts: 201 | From: Williams Lake, BC | Registered: Dec 2000
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Not quite sure what your intent is by posting your new sideline here. You obviously know that what you plan on doing will only incite arguments and controversy. Is this your intent?
Good luck in your new business venture.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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It's probably snowing there again and his head is snow logged
-------------------- Glenn Thompson Tell-Tale Signs Williams Lake, BC sign@telus.net (250)398-7446 Posts: 201 | From: Williams Lake, BC | Registered: Dec 2000
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Well, you sure arn't going to get any arguement from me. You, yourself are the most qualified to assess exactly what your work is worth. If you are happy with $20.00/Hr. then so be it.
Best of luck to you.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Of course you mean an average of $20 per hour Profit after all the expenses are covered. I could be happy with that. My problem is that it takes $30k of sales just to break even. The insurance, heat, lights, vehicles, equipment and materials etc. really add up.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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I sometimes like to check out the "recent posts" link in visitors profile page when I see something strange coming from someone. It sheds a little light on the character of the character. Rogers 5 posts since he joined were all topics he posted to pick our brains for his own betterment, except one post was a reply to keep his own topic going. So, having nothing to offer in participating in helping out on any other topic, Roger has simply been lurking here for 4 months & seems to know what buttons to push if he wants to stir the pot. I don't understand why he would want to stir $#!+ up with the very people that used to share information so freely when he had to ask our help. I guess Roger is so full of himself that his brilliant business plan has his road to riches is paved so far out in front of him that burning bridges behind him is of no consequence.
See ya later bud, don't let the door hit yourass on the way out.
Here's an excerpt from O.P.'s response to Roger's first post here, still relevant I think...
quote: yes this used to be a "lucretive" business, back in the day......when talent and a brush where all you needed. but with so many trying to make money in this business, the opposite effect has taken place. all the new places start up with give away prices, ex. MAGNETICS, $39.00, 2'X6' BANNERS $25, TRUCK DOOR LETTERING $45, 18" X 24" CORPLAST YARD SIGNS $10. all this does is make it harder for anyone, including the new place to make any money. then the buying public will remember these low prices and if you try to sell them at higher prices, you get.."well dum dum signs down the street does them for way less." when i painted only, set of truck doors was $100, and if the customer got them done this week, he usually gave me a tip, 2x6 banner painted, $70-$100, depending on detail. 18"x24" sign(was no corecrap then)was painted on alum., $45 for one side. back then gas was less then a $1 a gallon, cars new where under $10,000.00, and to be in the sign business didnt require $100,000 worth of computers, printers, plotters, vinyl, and corplast. also you didnt have everybody with a little expendable income buying a plotter to letter their stockcars, their trucks, and do the church signs for free. as for longevity, us old guys will die doin signs, and i cant tell you how many "quicky sticky" shops ive seen go in one month and gone 6 months later. not to detere you from doing this but just to bring some reality into your world on how it really is in the sign business from a 1 man operation.
And Like, I am going to buy a furniture shop and sell each piece for cost just because I am a smart ass....
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Heads I normally stay away from such shallow posts as this but I truly have to say thank you to Rodger because:
You will help drive all of the other riff raff away as well ...and only then will people see the difference between the true professional signmaker and the wannabee's.
My honest reflection will be that with the dramatic decrease of costs to get "in" as you have stated...that you will have lost not only the extended family that will wind up being your client base plus the interest you could have made on the 5k spent...but you will help get rid of those like you(and franchises) who consider this craft to be an easy side job.
Then folks will see the "wedge" I speak of often in describing the difference between a true Letterhead and a wannabe.
Thanks again and go get em tiger!
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1023 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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So you have talent, you say. Oh boy, as the church lady would say, now isn’t that special. You know what I do when somebody comes around looking for work whe wants me to pay them hard earned money and claims to have talent? I tell them they are a dime a dozen, and that I take perseverance over talent every time.
With what you have in mind for yourself that’s exactly what it’s going to take. Perseverance, midnight oil , 7 in 7 and 16 in 24. You will end up losing money on every job, just about. I would rather make 20 dollars on one little job (which is not dollars by the hour by the way, as others so ably have shown you) than 5 dollars each on 4 little equal jobs. One is maybe 30 min. of work, the other would be 2 and half hours with interruptions of taking on more of the same little jobs because you are underbidding everybody and for a little while the tire kicking public will come to you while you enrage the real business people who also make signs and who’s bread and butter you are temporarily infringing upon.
I wish you well, but I’ve been in business 25 years and have seen people with attitudes like yours come and go. Unless they woke up and smelled the sting of the losses and corrected their pricing structure there was not really a future for them.
I invite you to keep hanging around. Keep your ears and eyes open, and the rest shut for a while. Let us know how it’s going in about six months, if exhaustion has not overtaken you. Good Luck.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I don't know what it is about this business, but it seems that some people feel the need to experience a type of ascetic sign-monk, starving artist period before either going broke or wising up. Using your own logic, Roger, if you're "happy" at $20 an hour, wouldn't you be "ecstatic" at $30 an hour, and downright "delirious" at $40 ?
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I'm very new to this website, but man, what accurate responses. Just this morning, my son was asking why I do all the hard jobs. I tried to explain to him about self improvment, making yourself able to do jobs that others can't. But really, what I do are the odd jobs that others don't. Knoxville's not a very big town but last time I counted, there were in the neighborhood of 72 sign shops,those being the ones in the phone book. I'm mobile, I climb, I paint huge R.R. equipment in a rough neighborhood and whatever other job the vinyl shops don't do. I also don't even keep up (knowledge-wise) with what the other shops are charging, because it's all bizarre. It seems that Mr. Thompson's reply was bull'seye, about other expenses. I don't want to get you guys irate at ME, but even I charge $35 an hour, and i'm in the "backwoods" of Appalachia. This is a GREAT site, my life's slogan is "I need all the help I can get". I think I'm at the right place. Jim
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well I only live 45 minutes away from Rodger. I guess I'll never be able to sell anything in Truro N.S. But if you ever get the chance Rodger come visit me and I'll tell you about Airbrushing $1.00 a minute or the cost of carving a sign per sq ft. or handlettering a truck,building,or the design cost to vectorize someones logo etc.
But with your shop rate, maybe I will start putting in some time around Truro to drop off some business cards. Picking up some of the cream of the crop jobs.
Good Luck to you and thanks for your tip! I drop in sometime when I'm in the area.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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Hey when I first started back in say um 1993 I charged 20 bucks an hour, I wasnt worth much more if that. But I didn't have a plotter or stock worth 5K. I lived at home and only had to worry about going out on the weekends. So Roger all I can say is good luck.
You obviously are confident with your business plan and proud to be just another soul that id so smart that he believes he can get all the jobs by undercutting.
DOnt give up your furniture job either, seems you could do well with that business mentality in that feild too.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm buying a Summa and by doing my own signs the machine will pay for itself within a week, judging by what the "lowest priced" signmaker in this town charged me, and I gave him ready-made copy to boot!(Coreldraw 11). Once I learned the price of materials and what he was charging me, I'm never again buying signs...I'm selling them!
I have an empty storefront with a tenant in the flat above paying all the expenses, so no, I don't have much in the way of expenses. And yes, I'm going to happily undercut, partly out of vengeance. :-)
But if the venture grows and I buy a thermal or solvent printer and router, then I'll make money on those speciality items...but not on plain vinyl signs...they're the leaders.
I design all my own ads and signs and they look great. Certainly better than the lacklustre signs Anthony produces around here.
And Mr. Snyder, a low dollar doesn't mean anything. Are you aware that the fundamentals of the Canadian economy are actually better than those of the American? And I'm quite happy to have the benefits of a pseudo-American culture without being hated around the world. If there's one thing that immediately starts a bonding conversation amoung strangers at a pub in any of the dozen countries or so I've been to, it's ****ting on Americans. :-)) And America just keeps doing a great job flaming that hatred, now more than ever.
Although it is nice to be able to take advantage of our proximity to the Great Beast. We spend nothing on our military because who's going to attack Canada, being so close?
Hmmm, I must visit life in easy Hawaii 5-0, but not until that North Korean thing calms down. Makes to easy a target. :-)
-------------------- Roger Berry/Rajja Barrio Subway Discount Furniture/ Dura Graph Sign Systems 63 Main St Truro, NS B2N 4G7 Posts: 8 | From: / | Registered: Sep 2002
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Oh, reminds me, I remember my first time taking the train from Finland to Russia, an American woman was in the same compartment, as well as a few chatty Russians. She kept apologizing and apologizing about being American. "We're not all bad. We're not all stupid. Please don't hate me" Her words, not mine. She was quite nervous when the Russian soldiers took her (all all of our) passport(s). Poor girl. I bet at that time she would have loved to have my passport! :-))
-------------------- Roger Berry/Rajja Barrio Subway Discount Furniture/ Dura Graph Sign Systems 63 Main St Truro, NS B2N 4G7 Posts: 8 | From: / | Registered: Sep 2002
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See you label americans as idiots and peices of sh*t based on the actions of a few.
In Contrast by your actions, I should label Canadians as unintelligent, trouble making neanderthol business minded, 4 year olds.
But we have a whole bunch of Awesome Canadian brothers and sisters on this board, and for that I can plainly see that you are the minority in that Great Country.
At first you comments about the US ****ed me off but then I considered the source from which it came from and gently chuckled on my way to the shop.
Roger you offer no positive input to Letterville from my veiw, so I bid you farewell, go back to your furniture / Sign world for you have now burned any chance of a bridge.
[ February 15, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Please allow me to be one of the first to say "WELCOME BACK TO LETTERVILLE, KENNY".
What the heck is this crap! Any moron can buy a plotter and some materials and knock out signs. Many of them are IN THE SIGN BUSINESS. It looks as if some of them are also in the furniture business. If you really want to get into this business I say FINE, welcome aboard. Come to Letterville and ask questions and learn... share your knowledge with us.
BUT, to come in here and BASH the entire industry because you were unhappy with your local guy is nonsense.
Many of the people here actually take a little pride in themselves and their work. Let me see if I can figure this out. You are a businessman with too much time on your hands. You are struggling to sell furniture, profits are not where you want them to be so now you have to cut some corners and watch every penny. You have always been a cheap so-and-so and don't trust anyone... so when the sign guy gives you a price for the "professional" layout that you designed, you are appalled. YOU spent time designing and thinking about your ad and all this guy has to do is cut it and stick it to some kind of cheap substrate. Instead of spending time networking in your community or taking a course in PEOPLE SKILLS, you decide to take out all of your frustrations on THE ENTIRE SIGN INDUSTRY when in fact you should be working with a sign professional and a lot of other people to develop a marketing plan for your failing furniture business.
I am not impressed.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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$20 an hour, what a waste of time. I can lose money sitting on the couch doing nothing, why work to lose it? When are we going to see some of these $20 an hour masterpieces on the portfolio page. If you're as good as you say, don't be shy, get the pictures up. I don't usually get involved in posts like this, but this one just burns my a**!! Why don't you sit and try to learn hand painting on your own (which is how I did it), and maybe you'll have more of an appreciation of what this business is about, and realize that sign DESIGNERS and ARTISTS are worth a lot more than sign MAKERS. I hope that some of the other vinyl only people don't take that the wrong way, it is NOT meant as a slam towards you, unless you have the same attitude and mentality that Mr. Berry has, then you can take it how you want, I could give a big fat s***!!!
-------------------- Mike Murray Murray Signs Freeport IL Posts: 193 | From: Freeport IL USA | Registered: May 1999
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All this classic post needs to round it off is guns, politics, and religon. Hey Rodger, how much for any Mission Furniture? I have a large Letterhead Meet here in Minnesota in 2005, could you donate some furniture for door prizes? (Make sure the tables have 4 legs. And the sofas have all the old pizzas and soiled condoms removed.) Subway Furniture? Is that like old benches and stools from subways? Or are they all formica yellow booth's from Subway Restaurants? have at um kids! hahaha GO GET EM BOB!
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
posted
Posting pictures is really easy, (even I figgured it out). Lets see all this wonderful talent that you posses. I'm sure that we'll all learn something.
Do us all a favor as well, keep your political views to yourself. I have also been around the world, and never have I heard of, ANYWHERE, an American apologizing for being American.
.....what a dumass.... LOLOLOL
Good luck stupid.
-------------------- "B0LT" on the chat room thing.
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I guess we just encountered a real A-Hole Canadian.... Live in Maine close to N.S. most of my life, toured Europe and lived in Brazil 2 years.... it don't mater where you live.... just how you live.
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
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I'm going to be passing thru Truro soon, I think I'll drop in and See his operation. You know he might have something there.. he may be just a bit smarter than the rest of you guys, he can certainly get you going. he he
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Roger, you're starting out the same way I did and I'm doing well after 20 years in business. I fact you have a better plan than I did. It would be fair to add I did make a few changes after the first couple of months, starvation is a good motivator.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1051 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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He won't last a year. Let's see, the average billable hours in a day (after handling quotes, working the phone, eating lunch, billing and receivables, cleaning the shop, etc. etc. etc.) are around four hours for me. That's $80.00. Now, subtract even the most meger over head and I come up with about $6.50 an hour. I'd rather work at McDonald's and get a 401 K, insurance and scheduled hours! LOL
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote: And Mr. Snyder, a low dollar doesn't mean anything.
It means I could sub all of my work to you and bring home the same amount of money without doing any labor.
quote: And I'm quite happy to have the benefits of a pseudo-American culture without being hated around the world.
You're right about living in a " pseudo-American culture".
quote: Are you aware that the fundamentals of the Canadian economy are actually better than those of the American?
Now you're an economist to, "eh?"
quote: Although it is nice to be able to take advantage of our proximity to the Great Beast. We spend nothing on our military because who's going to attack Canada, being so close?
What is there to gain by attacking Canada?
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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You silly American sign guru's. I see a golden opportunity here. Whats all the fuss. I'm packing up all of my paid for plotters and vinyl and moving to Truro NS tomorrow. I should be able to make it easy on $10.00 an hour since this guy is such a rip off thinking he can make $20.00 an hour for chopping out letters by the pound.
I think after 30 years I should be able to out smart our new friend here and undercut him at his own game. Simple economics.
I invite all of you to join me in Truro NS and we can have Canadas first war. A price war!
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
I first read this post yesterday & thought that Roger must just be being sarcastic & making a joke. I can't believe he's serious! I read again today & felt compelled to comment as I am a "newbie" and also am "only vinyl". I got into this business as a hobby about 6 months ago & even spent less than $5k. My only customers are fellow MX racers & a few bike dealerships. I earn my "real" living as a CPA. The only real thing I have learned in the last few months is how much I don't know about this business. I found this site a week ago and have spent many hours reading posts and viewing beautiful artwork. I am truely humbled. I have never made claim to be a signmaker or artist and probably never will be. But even I bought a pricing program. I have too much respect for the industry to undercut. You guys have been great at making me feel welcomed and have shared your knowledge with me. I only hope that I can return the favor someday.
-------------------- Shanon Benson Race Ready Graphics Posts: 9 | From: Houma, LA | Registered: Feb 2003
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Shanon. You I can respect and welcome to this world. If you ever need any advice or help feel free to call and ask at anytime!
Roger as for you. You're an arrogant self righteous indignant pampas ass. You had better get your self into a class soon on public relations. You're going to need it.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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