Here's a pic of what some of our "European Friends" in peaceful Vienna were doing this past weekend.
They weren't Anti-America at all.
I know its wrong of me to be angry at this. Its not the politically correct thing to be if I want Europeans to like us Americans. But hey, that's just me and I'm too set in my ways.
But, lets review a few things.
1) Saddam attacked Kuwait without provocation a defenseless country.
2) His people raped, murdered, captured and executed men, women and children. Why? Oil, money and greed for more power.
3) A President took it upon himself and this nation to defend the weak.
4) Besides the objections of some Muslim/Islamic countries, three European countries - France, Russia and Belgium - opposed any military action. Sound familiar?
5) Those same three European friends of ours waited until that last possible moment before agreeing to either vote for or abstain (France) for a UN resolution permiting a coalition force to repel the Iraqi invaders.
6) The UN resolution, however, did not permit these coalition forces to go in and capture Saddam and Iraq. It was feared that the coalition would collapse if it did.
7) When defeat was immenent, Saddam sued for peace via a cease-fire. That should not be confused with a unconditional surrender.
8) The UN resolutions required as part of the cease-fire agreement that Saddam declare all weapons and weapons programs.
9) It was the job of the inspectors to verify compliance with the UN resolutions.
10) From 1991 to 1998, Saddam did everything he could to foil inspections.
11) In 1996, Bill Clinton fired 27 cruise missles in retaliation for Iraq's assault on a Kurdish-controlled city in northern Iraq. The Iraqi attack was in direct violation of the UN resolutions. At a cost of $1,000,000 apiece, these cruise missles killed 5 Iraqi and wounded 19.
12) In October 1997, the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) monitoring the elimination of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction concluded that Iraq was still trying to conceal the full scale and scope of its biological weapons program.
13) In November 1997, Iraq barred U.S. experts from participating in UNSCOM weapons inspection teams. While the on-site inspections were on hold, the Iraqis moved equipment and tampered with U.N. surveillance cameras at ostensibly civilian facilities, such as vaccine plants, that could also produce biological warfare agents.
14) In 1998, Bill Clinton launched Operation: Desert Fox. Several hundred cruise missiles and other bombs were launched on Iraq, and the raids flatten an agricultural school, damage at least a dozen other schools and hospitals, and knock out water supplies for 300,000 people in Baghdad, according to UNICEF and the UN World Food Program.
15) On May 19th, 1999, Russia, China, and France called for a suspension of the sanctions against Iraq.
16) The inspectors never returned.
17) During this absence, 1999 through mid-2002, two German companies covertly begin supplying Saddam with weapons manufacturing equipment. France begins to buy oil rights from Saddam.
18) The "Oil for Food" program (Resolution 986) is declared a failure. It was found that the Saddam was funneling money away from the Iraqi civilians and was using it for the construction of numerous "palaces". Iraq has built 48 palaces and VIP residences since the end of the Gulf war, increasing the total number of such facilities at the disposal of Saddam and his inner circle to at least 78. The Iraqi leader has spent $1.5 billion to $2 billion building new palaces or renovating existing ones.
19) Since the establishment of the No Fly Zones, designed to protect Allied aircraft and the Kurds living in Northern Iraq, Saddam has fired over 2000 SAMs at the Allied forces patroling overhead. This is in direct violation of the Cease-Fire that Saddam agreed to. Some would call it an act of war and a resumption of hostilities.
20) We've tried sanctions. It didn't hurt him. It hurt the people he claims he loves. The sanctions failed.
21) We've tried to keep him boxed in. Our European friends from Germany and France lifted the lid.
22) Only after the very real threat of war has the UN begun to insist on Saddam's compliance with the 16 UN resolutions.
23) Only after the very real threat of war has Saddam agreed to allow the inspectors to return.
24) And yet, even now, Saddam continues to play games; taking great delight in the anti-war protest this past weekend.
So I ask, "do we say what we mean and mean what we say, or do we let Saddam have the final laugh at the expense of those who died repelling him from Kuwait?"
When will our words begin to mean anything?
I'll step off my soapbox now.
[ February 17, 2003, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Oh, I'm proud. 80 or so posts on a hot topic and we have not blown it.
Glenn your stats are way over my head. I have this nose in my face and I can only see what's in front of that.
Your pictures are selective. They are part of an ugly world situation, that has been allowed to happen because we have proceeded with guns drawn and a message of attack which has boxed us into a corner. I understand your rage at what you show. You are a patriot.
But so am I.
I chose to concentrate on the pictures of relatively peaceful gatherings, and candles and songs, and speeches and the holding of banners that say "Bush" on them, because that is the source of their rage. And they were the majority, there always is a sub set in any group.
To come out of the corner where we are boxed in, and to not attack, would be tantamount to a bigger gesture even in spite of all that opposition, than we are capable of making. It would take a big man. Like some previous presidents. Not this one. We have our troops by the hundreds of thousands chomping at the bit at the border in Kuwait. Backing down is not in our vocabulary. Even though we would only lose face to our own mirrors. It's an attitude thing.
That's why this war will go down. Not because there are no other options.
Seems like points 22 and up from your lineup have some points that lead towards other solutions.
That's all those millions were talking about. And they were the tip of the iceberg. None of your pictures can dissuade me from knowing that something monumental and momentous happened world wide that is unprecedented. All these people can't be just simply wrong. In Britain, where the government supports us, it was the largest peace time demonstration in their recorded history.
I can't go there with you in the lineup of stats. Because to me they don't really matter. What matters has to do with humanity and backing away, sometimes even when you are "right". Being right is nice, but it is subjective. And even though rigidity has it's place, the stakes are too great to proceed with something this dangerous to world peace just because a thug might deserve being unseated.
quote:Oh, I'm proud. 80 or so posts on a hot topic and we have not blown it.
Yes Myra, I'd like to add to that by saying a personal thank you to all who have posted on this topic. I'm impressed that everyone has been able to express their opinions without saying anything mean or insulting to another.
Steve must be very proud.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
A friend of mine who will soon be 80 years old says he has the solution to all wars...... He says..let NO ONE UNDER 65 YEARS OLD FIGHT IN A WAR...........AND THEN YOU HAVE TO EAT WHAT YOU KILL..!!!!!!!!
Sounds like a Solution to me!!!!!!
Shep'
-------------------- Arvil Shep' Shepherd Art by Shep' -------- " Those who dance are thought to be mad by those who cannot hear the music " Posts: 1281 | From: Mt Airy NC | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
i was just watchin the tube.....flipped to MSNBC, heres phil donahue.....chatin with pat buchanan....WELL THIS MAN I SHOULDA VOTED FOR IN 2000.....him and phil in total agreement as to the folly that geo w is about to make. and he was saying almost everything that 5 M I L L I O N ANTI WAR PROTESTORS were saying.....gee suppose he might be a communist????????? hehehehehehehehe i also want to commend all who have choosen to make a statement here....pro or con is not the issue but we have managed to have a civil debate of ideology without personel attacks. well for the most part....hehehehehehehe
[ February 17, 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
ITs amazing, these very same words were spoken severel times in our history. I have been fortunate to attend University of New Orleans home of some of our countries most famous historians. I attended classes taught by these very same men. In these classes I was able to see first hand selected data of history that most never know exist. Some of which is the anti war movements from hundreds of years ago.
During the civil war there were hundreds of people killed and injured during anti war riots in North New England states. They (anti war marchers) were misinformed.
There were thousands marching in the streets of Europe and USA during WWI to keep us from entering the war in Europe. (again they were wrong)
There were thousand marching in the streets of France against England's "interfering" anti Hitler stand. (Really very Wrong) Then France found out how wrong they were. On top of that France troops fired on US troops to stop the invasion. HMMMM
There were even more marching in the streets of the US to keep us out of WWII. Another group found to be wrong..
The anti war isolationist movement is blamed for some of the lack of readyness in Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had a 14 point list "flags" that when all raised would signal a successfull attack on the US. The anti war public opinion was one of the primary points.
The Axis believed that public opinion would detain the US from entering the war in Europe long enuf ensure a final win over Great Britian. (very close to comming true)
Now, you could read the anti war words written 130 years ago, then 90 years ago, then 60 years ago and today and they all are the same. Just like a script out of a play.
How many times will history repeat itself????
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I still feel that my original question of why something wasn't done 12 years ago by George snr has not been adequately answered. On our '60 Minutes' programme the girl reporting from a children's hospital in Baghdad had to pause several times because the scenes of children dying (the strongest painkiller available is panadol) because the hospital is unable to supply them will the medication they need, bought tears to her eyes. Obviously SH prefers to spend the country's money on his palaces & weapons rather than on the health of his own citizens. As Si spoke about the WW2 and Sept 11 it reminded me of an old saying - 'those who forget the past are condemned to relive it'. I think this thread has now gone long enough and thanks for all viewpoints.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
David the story here is that the US was ready to chase SH down and exterminate him all the way to Bagdad but the Saudi's did not want to disrupt the balance of power in the middle east so they asked the coalition to stop at the Kuwaiti border. Without any bases for the coalition to deploy from further advances were stopped.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
as for history repeating itself...not only are the protestors sometimes wrong....the idea of war is wrong! wars create wars, violence creates violence. this has been going on for more years then anyone can count....have we learned anything... apperently not, if these poeple who create wars knew anything of history why would they have wars? you think there were not anti war people in in rome? greece? china? tibet? well maybe not ...because back then if you disagreed with your KING, OR RULERS you got killed, iam sure ascroft has all the names of the protestors....heheheheheheheh
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks Timi, you have answered my question.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
There is obviously a lot more that people feel a need to discuss then your question David, but the question was: "Why didn't George senior finish this job properly 12 years ago"
The real answer is that George Did finish that job, because at that time, as I said in the first reply to this post, "...pushing Iraq out of Kuwait was the stated objective"
Tim has shed some interesting light on factors that contributed to that stated objective being limited to what it was.
The real question NOW is what is the global consensus on what this job is that needs doing?
I think it is disarmimg SH of his WMD's by any means necessary. But hopefully not rushing into unecessary or unjust means. And the end doesn't necessarily justify the means.
posted
Has anyone been watching Frontline this week? Its been about the '91 Gulf War.
One of the things I found striking was that the same arguement against war was made then. Same organizations. Same signs. Same arguement.
Just out of curiosity, where were the anti-war protestors demanding that Saddam stop his agression back then?
Why aren't the anti-war protestors of today demanding that Saddam comply with the UN resolutions?
Where aren't the anti-war protestors demanding that Saddam stop using Iraqi funds to build more chemical weapons?
Why are they ignoring the fact that 13% of all Iraqi children die from malnutrition because Saddam redirected the money from humanitarian organizations and the "Oil for Food" program to rebuild his palaces and build more missles?
-----
Oh...this just came in.....
EU Threatens to Have Iraq Inspect Itself
(2003-02-17) -- The European Union (EU) today put some real "teeth" behind a tersely-worded statement calling on Iraq to "disarm and cooperate immediately and fully."
The statement read, in part, "The Iraqi regime alone will be responsible for the consequences if it continues to flout the will of the international community and does not take this last chance."
An unnamed EU spokesman said if Iraq refuses to disarm, "UN inspectors will leave the country, and the Iraqi government will have to continue searching for weapons of mass destruction with no help from other nations."
A spokesman for Iraqi President Saddam Hussein said, "We have stood up to the United States, and defied the United Nations, but who can resist the awesome power of a united Europe? We cannot afford to hire hundreds of inspectors, so we must finally comply with all applicable Security Council resolutions."
Negotiations over the precise wording of the EU statement took hours, but the consensus was, as a French diplomat put it, "No more Monsieur Nice Guy."
[ February 18, 2003, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
I apologize to be back here again, but I can't help myself.
I started to think a bit about two points. One: When you, David thanked us for our attempts to answer your question you sort of casually implied that it is SHussein who with his palaces and opulence is harming the children in his country.
Actually in the 80's there had been a massive reduction in child deaths in Iraq, and it reversed and many died in the 90's after the Gulf war through to now as a direct result of the sanctions. =====================
"We are in the process of destroying an entire society. It is as simple and terrifying as that. It is illegal and immoral." Denis Halliday, after resigning as first UN Assistant Secretary General and Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq
The Independent, 15 October 1998 ===================== These sanctions have been unwaveringly in place and the US State Department itself called them the "toughest and most comprehensive sanctions in history".
So, Dave, we have at least a big co-responsibility for the horrible state of the children of Iraq. Much damage can be done by the righteous who think they are on the side of the angels.
Furthermore, there is a new UN Document that predicts that 30 % of Iraqis children under 5, or 1.26 million, are at risk to die of malnutrition in the event of a new war. That even happens if the war is over in a couple of weeks.
Do we really want to burden our consciences like that? Karma never sleeps.
The second point I was pondering is our Mayor's question of how we are coping with the stress, and nobody answered it.
Mr. Mayor, I believe thanks to allowing and creating this forum you are looking at a little of it. We are under great stress in this situation, and you lifting the restriction to not have political posts, in this case, was helpful
Some write, some just read. All of us think about it a little bit, instead of keeping our head in the sand and pretending it is not happening, which is bad for our health.
I do not believe we are coping by buying into the fear mongering and the buying of duct tape. (In my house there is a standard rule anyway. One roll of duct tape per room nothing new there.)
I for one (obviously) have been glad for the opportunity to let off a little steam.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Duct Tape Maker Sponsors Tom Ridge News Conferences
(2003-02-14) -- A spokesman for the company that makes America's best-selling duct tape announced today that it will sponsor all future news conferences by Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge.
Since Mr. Ridge's department elevated the national security threat level to "orange", duct tape sales have skyrocketed.
"The sponsorship was a natural fit for us," said the Duck Brand Duct Tape spokesman. "What with the government being a little tight on funds, and all, they could use the money."
Neither the company, nor the department would elaborate on the details of the sponsorship contract rumored to be "in the seven figures range". However, Mr. Ridge will endeavor to "work in a mention of Duck Brand Duct Tape at least once during each news conference."
posted
we need to worry about all the 3rd world countires and how their people & children are treated? i posted earlier about health care in the U.S. 41 MILLION WITHOUT ANY, not counting the children, homeless and indigent. is that more then 13%? schools are one of the agencies suffering from lack of money. the childern of this country are not eating properly, school luNch programs provide junk for food. more people without work, less jobs, less wages, corperate CEO bilking their companies. while the homeless are not even thought of. oh yea we really need to spend 300 BILLION DOLLARS(that we dont have) ON A WAR so those poor iraqy people can get out from under their DICTATOR. get real folks.....it aint all about the U.S. feeling sorry for the iraqy people!!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
We can all blow off steam here, and that's fine. As long as we don't think for a minute that anything a group of sign people say TO EACH OTHER will have any effect whatsoever.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Cam: Actually, I was affected by some of the things you said. You gave me a different vantage point to consider. That you are a person in the same industry does not matter.
I have a suspicion that a lot of what gets written gets dismissed or not even read. When a semi closed mind encounters a post from someone who is not a member of his own choir, I think, he/she often just skips that post.
I am guilty of that, as well, to some degree. But I did read what you said, and I consider it like all other input. It's a lot like seeds thrown under the snow. Some will sprout, and take hold. Unless you are in Pittsburgh of course. Or Harrisburg.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: We are under great stress in this situation, ...lifting the restriction to not have political posts, in this case, was helpful
Some write, some just read. All of us think about it a little bit, instead of keeping our head in the sand and pretending it is not happening, which is bad for our health.
think I'll quote Myra again, because in addition to her points I'd like to add that the less people with there head in the sand, may translate to more people voting & not to say anything about how Gore would have handled a presidency, it is fair to say from recent experience, that a few votes could(could not will) make a difference.
Even millions of statements made in protests are not guaranteed to make a difference, but then who knows, maybe the cumulative resistance to a hasty war may be the reason there has not yet been one, & may also have contributed to whatever does happen being more universally accepted by the global community, resulting in less negative consequences for the U.S.
posted
BUSH SAID THAT the size of protests against a possible U.S.-led war against Iraq was irrelevant to his policy decisions. “The role of a leader is to decide policy based upon the security — in this case, security of the people.” Millions demonstrated against an Iraq war over the weekend in cities around the globe. “Democracy is a beautiful thing, and that people are allowed to express their opinion,” Bush said. “Some in the world don’t view (Iraqi President) Saddam Hussein as a risk to peace,” he added. “I respectfully disagree.” this is a leader of a country that proclaims it roots as "for the people by the people?" 5 million demonstrators IRRELEVANT????? and how many more that dont want a war that were not counted? I see someone else as the risk to any peaceful settlement....and it aint sadam. cam is right.....we are nothing....no matter how many disagree with our _________ (you fill the proper word, cause president is not the word i choose),and this "I",bush uses....as speaker for this counrty, shouldnt it be WE??? "I" is most used by a single RULER....just an observation.... the peoples have spoken but to no avail seems like the __________ will do as HE SEES FIT!!!!!! SECURITY.... for whom? oh how i miss those bad old clinton days!!!! add this to the mix......
Only the 15 Security Council members can vote on resolutions, while the five permanent members of the Security Council — the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France — have the power to veto a resolution. France, Russia and China are also opposed to war now and pushing to allow inspectors to continue their work. Among the 10 non-permanent members of the Security Council, only Spain fully backed Washington and London in debate that followed the inspectors’ reports Friday.
so everything other then what _______ SAYS...IS IRRELEVANT!!!!! does this sound like a man who is concerned with anything other then HIS OWN AGENDA? i could be wrong....but iam just a crazy old sign painter.....
•
[ February 18, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
i guess so..the "quite minority" APPOINTED him to his position.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
What we have to understand is that once a "politician" gets in office, we no longer mean anything to them. That includes conservatives and liberals alike. Bush proved that today when he "respectfully disagreed" with the protestors. When I was younger, I didnt understand protestors,who I thought were people that seemed to be just troublemakers and pacifists. Now I do. This isnt about being a pacifist or anything of the like. Although Ill give you that some are just along for the ride on these protests, most have thought out well what this war will mean to our ways of living. I know I have. If its a have to case, then so be it, but the current leaders seem just a little too quick to chomp at the bit on this one. Right now, Ill have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Bush, Rumsfeld, and Colin Powell and say back up for a second and listen to what we have to say. Basically, the peace of the whole world is riding on this situation. In my honest opinion that is, and a few million others.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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quote: What we have to understand is that once a "politician" gets in office, we no longer mean anything to them. That includes conservatives and liberals alike. Bush proved that today when he "respectfully disagreed" with the protestors.
Part of me wants to agree. Another part of me doesn't.
It is easy to lump all politicians in the same vat. Very simply, a lot of politicians made it easy for us to be that cynical. Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Greens, Independents - they've all done it.
But I think its important to look at it from both sides pragmatically.
Be honest with yourself. If you were the President, had a 60+ approval rating, just defeated an opposing party rather soundly, and you were convinced in your heart that you were doing the right thing, would you care what a few protestors who didn't vote for you said?
I don't know about the rest of you, but I wouldn't give a rat's behind what they thought.
The simple fact of the matter is that assuming a politician is everything bad that you think he is, he isn't going to care one wit what they think because they aren't going to vote for him anyway.
[ February 18, 2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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No one said that he wasn't everyone's President. Would you prefer someone who leads by consensus?
Lets look at Blair. I don't agree with his socialist views. But, I've got to respect the guy for standing up for what he believes to be the right course of action inspite of the fact that his chances for re-election become dimmer with each passing day.
Isn't that the kind of politician we keep telling ourselves we'd like to see?
[ February 18, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
I take one little nap because vinyl inks gave me a headache, and I find you boys veering off the straight and narrow!! We are not going to ruin this thread, right!
If we keep it to our own perception and opinion, without personal swipes, we could have this thing end "good". Like for instance now.
There were some important things said here in the last day and a half, some of them by me. I don't want them gone forever because of the school boy swiping I see escalating.
Thank you.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
glenn you keep eluding most of your posts to "doing the right thing" or "the right thing to do".....how is it that the right thing to do...is not kill, but you seem to not see that......seems to my dumb old brain not a real hard choice. to make peace, your sayin that....people gota die in a war that shouldnt be? and then we will have peace?....and most who support this war are PRO-LIFE, kinda twisted logic in my book. i and my kind are real dumb here.....and dont paint good lookin signs(i have to agree)but the concept of KILLING TO MAKE PEACE.....eludes me......
[ February 19, 2003, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
i didnt say wars with a true purpose ....didnt solve the problems of those times....BUT WE NEVER ATTACKED FIRST. as for slavery, wasnt the purpose of the civil war, facisium, who couldnt defeat italy? they basically defeated themselves, and the world was on board for ww2.(not just u.s. & britan) communisium...in what war...."the cold war maybe", not a shot was fired. its still alive and well 90 miles from our border..CUBA. in china and dont forget north korea....which again is more threatning then IRAQ.
[ February 19, 2003, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Adrian Howard Signrite Signs & Graphics Shaftesbury, Dorset United Kingdom ady@signrite.co.uk "Our only Business is Promoting Yours" Posts: 42 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I want you all to know how hard I have struggled to maintain civility here... trust me, if the delete key could talk....
But I am going to continue to be respectful, even of the OPinions I don't find agreeable.
My point earlier is that in many ways, when it comes to world opinion, we DO reap what we sow, though not always for the reasons we think.
I don't believe the US should be the world's policeman, but if we are going to take that role we have to establish ourselves as fair, honest, and consistent. How would you like to have your local police act as our government has - scolding and harping about democracy and the rule of law, yet selectively choosing who has to obey those laws, out of convenience and expediency? How would you like a cop that busts into your house to seach for drugs, yet entirely ignores - even protects - the crack house and meth lab across the street?
The problem starts at home, folks. We have political parties (both of them, I am NOT taking sides) who appeal to pet constituencies with empty rhetoric and wind-bag "principles", but who in practice are virtually indistinguishable from one another; yet we continue to support anyone who tells us what we want to hear at election time. The only things that has been consistent about our political class is that (A) it continuously seeks to aggrandize its power at the expense of its citizenry, and (B) it will do and say anything, to anyone, to achieve that goal. And why not? Look how well that works!
I get people here who, jokingly or otherwise, write things like "Cam for President." And that's sad, in a way, because what it tells me that a lot of people are so starved to hear ANYONE - even an grumpy middle-aged signpainter - actually voice a consistent, reasoned opinion, or tries to look behind the curtain of posturing and bluster to understand WHY things happen as they do.
Contrary to what a few of you might imagine, I have only one agenda here - whether I write about politics or sign pricing or whatever - is to try to encourage you to think, independently and without preconceived bias or attitude; to consider as many of the facts that are available, and come to a reasoned, consistent, coherent opinion. It's a totally selfish motive: I prefer to be around thoughtful people, and thoughful, rational people make better citizens. Citizens who look at every side of an issue, who don't let themselves be conned or condescended or bullied, who don't let their personal grievences and inherited prejudices cloud their judgement, who demand and expect integrity and principled behavior in themselves and in those around them, and who hold their leaders to the same standards.
It's much more difficult than being a follower, but oh, so much more deeply satisfying.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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