posted
------------------------------------- Millions -------------------------------------- 100 000 in Sydney 750 000 in London 1 Million in Rome 500 000 in New York 650 000 in Madrid 500 000 in Barcelona 70 000 in Amsterdam 500 000 in Berlin 100 000 in Paris 100 000 in Los Angeles that is how many are estimated to have protested in only 10 out of the 600 large cities where marches were held yesterday. It is impossible to give a count of the thousands of small cities and municipalities that also had marches or gatherings.
The Pope Desmond Tutu - Peace Prize winners - Nelson Mandela – Senators (who are not up for re-election) – Chris Loudmouth Matthews of MSNBC – every actor I know (except two) – my neighbors ( mostly) – my friends (mostly) – my family and ex in laws – my customers (mostly) – the people in the greasy spoons (mostly) My 5 brothers around the world, my sister, and many people who read and visit here.
All these people are against waging war against an entire nation to get one man. (Again) =================================================Despite successfully dismantling the Taliban regime, the United States and its supporters failed to eliminate the threat from al-Qaeda. Thousands of fighters are scattered worldwide. Destroying this network is the primary strategic challenge we face. Attacking Iraq will detract from our primary mission against al-Qaeda, supercharging anti-American sentiment in the Arab street, boosting al-Qaeda's recruiting, and causing difficulty for moderate Arab regimes. General Wesley Clark (retired) former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe =================================================
As I see it , these masses of people around the globe collectively have a humanitarian concern, and one of self preservation to be against this intended war which could destabilize and rock our world. I do not want to incite, but I do respectfully suggest the marches are not a communist (socialist) inspired cause. Should a world wide majority of people really be ignored by a small handful of American politicians? ================================================= "It is a tragedy what is happening, what Bush is doing in Iraq," Mandela told an audience in Johannesburg. "What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust," he added, to loud applause =================================================
I am after a solution that uses the brain. We can find it. We have the greatest minds at our disposal. Not just the largest arsenal of weapons of mass destruction.
I know in my heart that we have evolved beyond duking it out with bombs and guns. Whom would Jesus bomb?
================================================ I'm not sure which planet they live on, because it isn't the one that I travel. [If] we intend to solve this through violent action, we're on the wrong course. First of all, I don't see that that's necessary. Second of all, I think that war and violence are a very last resort.
General Anthony Zinni (retired) ============================================
Yesterday, in my paper in Winston-Salem North Carolina, a headline on a good size article said that MY ALDERMAN proposed at a town meeting that the neighborhood arm itself and add a gun to the duct tape the water and the plastic. One more quote: ".....he said that residents who stocked up on food and water would need guns to fend off people who had no supplies." The destabilization has already begun. God help us, if we don't step up to the plate and help ourselves.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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That isn't very many protesters. You also forgot the ones who protested the protestors.
289 Million Americans Avoid Peace Rallies
(2003-02-15) -- Police across the nation estimate the crowd that avoided today's anti-war demonstrations at about 289 million. Americans from coast-to-coast voted in absentia against criticizing the Bush administration for Iraq's failure to comply with U.N. resolutions.
Anti-anti-war demonstrators gathered in grocery stores, shopping malls and private homes to proclaim their disagreement with protestors marching in the streets of Washington D.C. and San Francisco.
"Going about my regular Saturday routine is my way of saying I disagree with the radical left-wing agenda of the anti-Bush crowd," said college student Melanie Sampson, who spent the day preparing a term paper for a literature course.
Police reported no unusual problems with the droves that stayed away from the protests.
posted
Metro Section front page Winston-Salem Journal Today's headline, along with a picture of a student, and our Sheriff, and that Alderman I mentioned in my previous post ===================================== Students back Bush Policy 100 students rally in support of war at Wake Forest University." ================================================ You are right, Glenn
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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BTW, all of these protests have given the EU an idea......
War Protests Spark Change in EU Voting Laws
(2003-02-15) -- As a result of war protestors gathering in the streets of major European cities today, the European Union (EU) has decided to alter the way decisions are made in its member states.
From now on, instead of votes by elected representatives, crowd-size estimates will decide major issues.
The EU will designate different days for advocates and opponents of the various issues to gather in the streets. The side with the largest crowd wins.
The actual crowd-size estimate will be determined by a complex formula, taking the rally organizer's own estimate and dividing by 20, then subtracting that number from the official police estimate.
"This is much more democratic than the old way," said an unnamed EU spokesman. "This way, the people will directly influence the course of the nation. Seeing those protestors out there made us all realize how primitive our representative forms of government are."
Extra points will also be awarded for the chanting of clever slogans, excellence in banner design, and for profoundly affective poetry.
posted
glen as i said in the last post....."yes they are in the anti war demos".....BUT ONLY ARE 1% OF ALL THE PEOPLE AGAINST THE WAR! and it is McCarthisum, that same tactic is being used, ASSOCIATION of like. also your saying that ALL who participated in the ANTI WAR DEMOS are UNAMERICAN, and only the TRUE AMERICAN avoided the rallies. see how it can get taken outa context? a lot of the radio talk show do this, for the benifit of who they support. bottom line....without the subtrufuse..THE WORLD IS AGAINST THIS WAR......and i eleude back to the 60's song WAR, WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR.....ABSOLUTLY NOTHING. what needs to be brought to the forefront, is the mental war that AL-QUIDA has started in this country....they are winning, we live in fear, the postman is the secret police,the lose of civil liberties, the divion of the people in this country, the worsening economy, the gas prices shooting up, the US vs. THEM running rampant, all the while al-quida & bin ladin, are no where near IRAQ....or AFGANASTAN. they set out to DESTROY THE AMERICAN ECONOMY....and a war will definatly spend money we could use here at home!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
So what are you saying Joe, Are you against Capitalism? Are you for Communistic Ideas like the workers party? I am a capitalist myself! and I think all of the free world exists because of Capitalism! Even Blix says Saddam is not complying, I think he just wants to play inspector a few more years. The UN is a totally ineffective organization! In my opinion the US ought to just kick them out of the country and forget them.
Bill
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have a son in the military who said "Dad,...alot of folks are out there protesting to keep peace,I am going to assure you it will be done." I am not for war by any means however SH has enough biological and chemical weapons of mass destruction to kill this planets populace 3 times over. How do we know? WE sold them to him during the war with Iran. How do we know? He used them on the Iranians and his own rebellious people. We were not allowed to pursue him past the Kuwaiti border due to restrictions imposed by the Saudi govt. It was not our choice.I pray for peace however I have no choice but to support our troops.They are not there by thier choice but on orders from the White House and our military leaders. I have no reason to dispute thier beliefs as to SH's possesion of weapons of mass destruction,as they have the most sophisticated intelligence gathering capabilities on the planet. In order to keep the security of their sources they must not play all their hand in order to prove this. All this said and done I pray for our troops and the innocent iraqi people that will come in harms way if this conflict follows it's present path. "If", is a big variable.Given the facts I see no way to avoid this conflict as it is obvious that SH is not abiding by the UN resolutions from the first gulf war. This man is tyrant and a murderer intent on no good and his prodigy is even worse,where does it stop? The pacifists can voice their opinions here because our forefathers fought for their right to do so,...what "if" they had been pacifists refusing to fight for what they believe in?
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Joe couldn't be communist... he owns his own business. Grounds for automatic expulsion from the peoples party of North America right? and well said Tim.
[ February 16, 2003, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Lee McKee ]
-------------------- Lee McKee McKee Studios Birmingham, Al Planet Earth (sometimes) Posts: 277 | From: Birmingham, Al | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
It would seem to me, that the REAL issue here is the complete lack of accountability for the millions spent to track down and aprehend Osama Bin Laden. With all that has been spent and done toward that objective, the president and military can't even say for a certainty that they have accomplished what they originally set out to do.
That means they have to find a NEW TARGET...one that'll deflect attention away from their failed attempt. That's a tough and difficult word to swallow and admit to, FAILED! But if one truely and objectively assesses the response to 911, then it's difficult to find too great a measure of success. Why isn't Bush being called to account for THAT?
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Glenn, There WAS a stated objective, was there not? Was that objective met? To what extent? How much did the exercise cost to-date?
That might do for starters.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
I think the REAL question we should be asking is which media group dishes out the most BS about The United States? It's obvious to me they a lot of people posting on this thread have widely differnt views. The fact that just about everyone can quote one news group or another to prove their point is almost laughable. There is no way all this info can be true. A lot of it contradicts itself anyhow. How can we form intelligent freewilled opinions about anything when we are fed what "they" want us to hear? Other countries look at us and all they see is MTV and Jerry Springer! This stereotype is so far from the truth it is not even funny! But a lot of groups see only greed, inmorality, or bullheadness in Americans thanks to our media groups. You have to believe that this war is about higher ideas. If other countries choose to listen to that garbage so be it, But, I think people here in the States have learned to tune it out. Look around at what is going on all around the world! It is going to Hell in a hand basket and unless somebody does something soon it will be in our backyards too. No man is an island! (but if I were an island I think that I would like to be Jamacia )
-------------------- Lee McKee McKee Studios Birmingham, Al Planet Earth (sometimes) Posts: 277 | From: Birmingham, Al | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
If this war happens, and you think it will all be good and done after SH is out of power, think again. The battlefield wont be in another country the way it has been. It will be right here. Terrorism will reach a high that wont possibly be contained by any amount of force. Terrorists are like rats that strike without worry of dying themselves. They will use every option available to them to kill as many americans as they can. Our government is turning its backs on Nato, the UN, and our allies and MILLIONS of americans who dont want this. I dont think it has anything to do with oil, but I do think its a personal vendetta by Bush. It shoulda been handled years ago by his father, when we were already there in defense of Kuwait. We're after SH for having something we possibly sold him in the first place to fight IRan. Jesus, how ironic is that? One thing is for sure, republican and democrat and whatever affiliation you hold, this war will forever change your lives. We can only wait and see and pray to God for help.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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quote:Originally posted by old paint: socialilist and communists....that line is from 1952....McCARTHYISUM!!!! this is 2003!!!! 2 words that struck fear and hatred into this country and ruined many lives by just "implicating" an association with anyone connected to its belife and the stigma and meaning still have power today.
This is a classic from the lefty rhetorical playbook, bring up McCarthy to attempt to discredit any mention of Socialists or Communists. Not surprising. Most lefties have a secret (or not so secret) longing for the "ideals" of communism, while desperately trying to forget, deny or diminish the hideous real-world consequenses of these poisonous philosophies. In the same way, the left tries to hide the collectivist nature of the current anti-war/corporate/globalization movement, hoping against hope that if you make enough noise and shout enough slogans, no one will notice the intellectual emptiness behind it.
And that's a damn shame. Because the world needs an anti-war, anti-corporate-fascism movement that's based on a philosophy of respect for individual achievement, with a sound basis of intellectual reasoning. The Bush people and their corporate partners have every reason to be smug and arrogant, given the lame, noisy, emptyheaded "opposition" they get from lefties, most of who are willing to allow marching and shouting to substitute for the much harder work of actually thinking. Being chronically indignant at the state of the world is just not enough, not anymore.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It always takes two sides for a war to begin. What I find ironic, is that whwnever the possibility of war becomes imminent, that people begin to pray, and beseech God to look favorably on their "side" of the issue, whatever it may be. Don't you think that those of the Muslim persuasion ALSO pray to Allah, for pretty much the same things? Does it come down to who's God or who's Allah is the most benevolent toward the "cause" that's being prayed for?
Or, could it be that war itself is an inheirantly evil pursuit, and that neither God, or Allah will take a side when humans chose to kill and maim each other, in their name?
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote: It always takes two sides for a war to begin.
True. Look what happened to Kuwait in 1991. They should never have provoked Saddam. God knows what Poland did to Hitler to provoke him. Poland certainly got what it deserved.
posted
Fist of all, thank you all for your replies and opinions. I am flabergasted at the response. This started out last Thursday evening while having dinner with 4 of our friends. The conversation got around to the impending war and the question came up about George Snr. Me being the smarty pants said "Well I'm part of a group on the WWW so I'm sure I will get a few answers and will print them out for all to read." When I knocked off on Friday afternoon (Aus Time) there were 8 replies so I just thought I would check again Monday. You can imagine my surprise when I checked and along with several emails it blew the socks right off me. I must admit that I am now more confused than ever. Things have happened over the weekend with huge peace rallies and my own Prime Minister is copping flak from the labor opposition for taking sides with George, which I am finding amusing because when questioned about Tony Blair (British Labor) they go into quiet mode. The points I see is this: 1. SH must love seeing the peace rallies (makes him look good) 2. While things are at a stalemate the stock exchange dithers and this doesn't do investment any good. 3. A quick "get in- get out" (but finalise it) will settle things back down. 4. There are some ratbags in the UN.investigating ratbags. 5. If you support "No war" (not to be confused with peace) you support SH which in return supports terrorism. P.S. I've already got the fireproof suit on, especially for #5. The peace rally in Brisbane yesterday which is my state Capital city was well attended but looking at the big picture it is still a small percentage of the overall population. One must also be careful of what the media tries to shove down our necks.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Interesting post! I was not at the peace march here in Stockholm, but am very much anti-war, and there must be many more like me around the world.
No need for a fireproof suit! In answer to Nr5 I am not a supporter of SH, but feel that you can be that and anti-war....I am sure if you talked to the masses that did demonstrate that, no body supports his regime. In the same way as I am NOT anti-american, because I disagree with George Bush.
I have read most of the posts on this thread and find most of the comments interesting, and informative. I think we all share the same concerns but are unsure about how to achieve a satisfactory outcome. One thing about living in a neutral socialist country is that we are not as biased one way or the other in our news reporting, and thanks to modern day digital satelite broadcasting, I recieve English terrrestial TV here as well as many US stations, and have watched some great news/discussion programs from both sides of the atlantic.
I would have thought that Al Quaeda was a much bigger worldwide threat than SH, and a harder nut to crack. The current alarms in the UK around the airports are related to Osama and not SH....although it seems people are trying hard to connect the two of them, with their given backgrounds and beliefs or lack of them they don't make good bedfellows.
I tend to go along the same sentiments as John Deaton, and feel the only real outcome of a war will be much more terrorism directed at the US and UK.
Great to see that this post has not got personal, and that people have been able to share their feelings and concerns without being labelled or put down.
posted
David, I wondered when you would check back in. I find it interesting to learn of the viewpoints of people from othe rnations, just as you were curious about the views from Americans.
I would have to agree that posting your point #5 is an inflamatory remark with potential for reactionary replies.
That statement is such a huge generalization why would you even put it in writing?
"Peaceful solutions" can mean a lot of things. Far more then my un-educated (about finer points of war & foriegn policy)mind could comprehend. I do know that it can mean more idle, passive "turning the other cheek" while dictators & terrorists have their way with the world.
If so many millions of people do not support a war in Iraq, do you honestly think you can generalize that this equals support for Saddam? Do you really have this little faith in any hope for a peaceful solution, that those who do are now part of the problem?
posted
glen to you those are a SMALL PERCENT COMPARED TO WORLD DISTAIN FOR WAR. cam, i didnt bring it up glen did, my lame attempt WAS explaining why the word are used buy the right. as for bill, you see cam and glen how what i said got taken outa context? even thou i made the statement iam not a communist...i still got accused of being ANTI-CAPITALIST.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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(2003-02-16) -- A dejected Saddam Hussein quietly packed his bags and left the main Presidential palace today after he lost a 'no confidence' vote in the Iraqi Parliament.
Peace protestors around the world have called for such a vote saying, "we think Saddam should go, but that is for the Iraqi people to decide and not the United States."
Indeed the representatives of the Iraqi people have spoken, dismissing the only leader many Iraqis can remember. Despite years of Saddam's propaganda, they voted their consciences. Heedless of the brutal dictator's track record of torturing and executing political opponents, they cast their votes against him. Regardless of Saddam's history of using chemical and biological weapons against Iraqi citizens, they stood their ground and said collectively, "You must go." Surrounded by his loyal and vicious security force and Republican guards, they decided to do what's right for the Iraqi people.
Asked what he would do next, Mr. Hussein said wistfully, "I'm going to Euro-Disney with Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schroeder. Then I'm going to talk with my old friend Yassir Arafat about that prime minister position he's advertising."
posted
As an European living in Canada, I have always been wondering why the US sees themselves resposible to end all dictatorships and possible conflicts by intervening, whether asked to do so or not. Does a strong country like the States really have to fear one guy across the ocean? What if they would simply mind their own business and would put all this effort(and money)into guarding their borders and airspaces, into national safety and, yes, diplomatic efforts to improve relationships with other nations? I dare to say that it would save lives, make people feel safer and get the US more international respect. I for one would not want my son to die in a foreign country and for a cause that doesn't make sense.
posted
Doug, as I said at the start I am becoming more confused than ever. Lotti, I think you make it all sound too easy. Glenn, A picture says more than a thousand words. My own opinion is that of my own Prime Minister.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Obviously all this anti-war and hate Bush rhetoric,is because none of these people have not studied history! I am old enough to remember the prelude to WWII. The League of Nations (UN's predecessor, which failed) thought they had Hitler and Germany contained! Also did worry about Japan getting the ability to be a World Power!
When Hitler marched into Austria, the appeasers said "Oh well, they are really Germans, no problem!" They thought Poland and the Nordic countries didn't amount to much.
What a surprise when Hitler gobbled up France and the rest of Europe and North Africa, including his ally Italy!
The same with Japan invading Korea and Manchuria. Nothing much until they bombed Pearl Harbor!
Let's keep the "Inspectors" in Iraq looking for the "Weapons of Mass Destruction" that he has unquestionably already smuggled out to other countries, or hidden. Then while we argue, debate , and protest....he will unleash them on the unwary Western World (nonMoslem Infadels)!!!! And while we try to recover (remember 9/11? ) he can gobble up the Middle East!
Having gained most of the world's oil, he will be sitting pretty, while we and Europe will be scrabbling to have enough oil to run our industries! Fuel for cars and trucks will be too expnesive to be practical, it will be used for plastics and chemicals.
Ecofreaks will be tearing their hair out when we have to cut down our forests for heating our homes and drilling for oil in Santa Barbara and the Northern Slopes in Alaska!
The Amish and Mennonites will be the new Celebrities....teaching us how to do without e;lectricity! Movie and rock stars will be penniless, due to the lack of electricity! Sign business will revert to brushes, unless they develop coal fired vinyl plotters! Bicycle manufacurers will become wealty! PITA members will be eating endangered species due to world hunger!
YES! the world will change! No matter if we go to war against Saddam, or if we don't!!!!!!!!
Not only that, I'll have to learn how to spel....and not have to edit my posts, because of spelling
[ February 17, 2003, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
While it is true I'm not a big fan of war, I am not against this particular war. I'm not for it either.
All I know about the situation is what I hear in the media. In my opinion that doesn't qualify me to give an opinion one way or other. In my own personal experience the media isn't overly concerned with telling the truth or getting the story right... reporters are for the most part human and as such concerned with their own interests and opinions much like the rest of us. They just get to report their point of view as FACT and most readers believe.
I certainly don't know the facts and I'm sure there is lots to know that the powers that be aren't saying. It certainly wouldn't be in the United States interest to spill all the beans of what they know. Not a smart way to run a conflict if it were to escalate into more than it is currently.
I don't believe Saddam is telling all either by a long shot.
Marching for peace doesn't change the facts either, but only serves as a means to express an opinion of those inclined to do so (be it correctly informed or not).
So I'll keep my head down and do what I can to make my circle of influence positive in what I do know and what I can control. I find that I can keep a much more positive outlook on life if I only listen to the news once in a while and take that with a grain of salt. (for flavor)
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I personally get tired of the assumption that because I find the motives of "peace" activists suspicious, that I'm automatically a right-wing war hawk. Wrong again.
Here's my position: Any regime that gathers weapons, gasses and/or starves its own people to maintain power - like he SH regime in Iraq, or that evil little rat basturd in North Korea - should be cut off from the outside world. Completely. I don't mean those wimpy UN sanctions or embargoes, I mean quarantine - NOTHING and NOBODY goes in or out, at all, for any reason. How long is SH going to last on his OWN resouces, without backdoor oil money from Western countries? Close the door and lock it. If they attack anyone, hammer them - otherwise, let them rot. See how long it takes the Iraqi army to string up SH and his whole scumbag family, when he can't buy their loyalty with Western money.
One of the reasons America gets no respect in the world is our government consists of inconsistent hypocrits. We play off one mass-murdering dictator against another, out of convenience. We take the moral high ground against a racist regime in a place like South Africa, then write a blank check for a racist regime in Israel. One of our biggest trading partners is the butchers and slave-labor camp regime in the People's Republic of China, while to the rest of the world we blather about human rights.
Meanwhile, at home we gather the world's best and brightest into our universities, then turn them over to leftover 60's burnouts, who teach them that reality is an illusion and that Western Civilization, capitalism, and private property is the cause of all evil, then send them home (or into the corporate world) where they put these ideas into practice - and when everything turns to sh*t, it's somebody else's fault. We let ourselves be led around by the nose by advertisers and media whores and whoever is the trendy cause-du-jour, til we don't see any contradiction in driving a 10mpg SUV with a Greenpeace bumper sticker. We present ourselves to the world as a combination of arrogant bully, pedantic scold, and world-class hypocrites, then wonder why we don't get no respect.
Speaking of money, France, Germany and Russia are owed BILLIONS by Iraq - you think this is about money? The UN political games sure as hell are. As for settling world problems without violence, now we should take lessons from the French and Germans? Oh yeah, there's two countries with one hell of a track record for peaceful solutions. Riiiight.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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(2003-02-17) -- France has agreed to help attack and disarm Iraq, thanks to a personal apology from U.S. President George Bush which was sparked by results of a new poll.
According to Reuters a recent French opinion poll showed that "Offered a choice of three reasons to best explain why they opposed going to war, 76 percent of the anti-war camp said they "dislike they way the United States is behaving in the crisis".
Just nine percent said the were mainly against military action because Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was not a threat to international security and 13 percent chose to explain their view by saying the crisis did not affect France's interests.
As soon as President Bush became aware of the results of the poll, he called French President Jacques Chirac and said, "We're really sorry for how we have behaved. I hope you can forgive us."
President Chirac graciously accepted the Bush apology and ordered Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin to introduce a new resolution in the U.N. Security Council authorizing force to disarm Iraq.
Mr. de Villepin announced, "France is now prepared to help the U.S. lead a 'coalition of the wheedling' to overthrow Saddam."
----
Anyone notice how French Cam looks with that hat?
[ February 17, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
I vote for Cam Bortz for president of the united states. I've resisted stating how I feel about this whole topic but Cam pretty well summed up and rather eloquently I might add exactly how I feel about everything in a friggn nut shell!
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
lol Bob, I recall attempting to nominate Cam for President some time back on another OT thread. Initially I thought his views somewhat contrary to mine, but this latest post gets my vote too.
To further clarify my position...just because I may oppose war in Iraq, doesn't make me a passivist dreamer & among my hopes for what could be construed as a peaceful solution, Cam said it better then I would have trid to...
quote:the SH regime in Iraq...should be cut off from the outside world. Completely....NOTHING and NOBODY goes in or out, at all, for any reason....Close the door and lock it. If they attack anyone, hammer them - otherwise, let them rot.
(slightly edited for emphasis)
That IMO is a peaceful solution, but a proactive one.
posted
I, like most people, dislike all dictators. But to me Bush started to look like one of them. I much prefer intelligence and diplomacy to take on issues rather than to act bullish and arrogant. IF the main idea is about OIL, I prefer to pay gasoline what is worth than to get it cheaper at the expense of innocent lives...
-------------------- Adrian Niño Maya SIGNS 5505 Old Redwood Hwy. Santa Rosa, CA 95403 MayaSIGNS@aol.com Posts: 21 | From: Santa Rosa, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Well, for the French, it is about oil. They're the ones who purchased the oil rights from Saddam. Nothing like defending a mass murderer for a few francs and make it all A-OK. Bush should have been more sensitive to the French. Bad Bush. Bad!
posted
One thing I find annoying and disturbing is how many people say something like "we don't want to bomb Iraq's women and children". May I state that is probably not the US's (or the UN, hypothetically) intention. The US may not have gotten EVERY bomb up the poop chute of an Iraqi tank during Desert Storm, but they (or should I say the coalition forces) were only after military targets,and would be again. It is SADDAM who goes after HIS OWN women and children with poison gas!! We don't want to and never intended to go carpet-bombing the whole country until there was nothing left but cockroaches. The Iraqi army and other armed forces are the only people who need fear allied guns...not the people suffering at Saddam's whim.
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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Bush got 'elected'. He doesn't know how to fix the economy. He still blames Clinton (yaaawn). The surplus has been squandered. The wealthy get the big tax breaks. World opinion is turning against us. We're heading to war against the wrong guy. Bin Laden got away.
[ February 17, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Mark Jordan ]
-------------------- Mark Jordan Houston, Texas Posts: 273 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
People seem to have formed their views on political ideology. I can't say that I'm immune to it either but let's not overlook the fact that there would be no talk of war if the world had been on the same page to start with. Iraq could have been choked off and brought to it's knees 10 years ago. Instead a dangerous game of let's play nice and feed the children (it's hard not to) so Saddam builds his army and palaces and God knows what.
Now here we are all these years later and the world is still playing games. We get Hans "Mr. Magoo" Blix saying that Iraq had a million tons of anthrax, we don't know what he did with it but we can't assume he still has any. And people rally behind this kind of insight ? Amazing.
The US is not alone and all those who are trying to spin it that way probably think Blix is a genius of sorts. War is not the solution IF and only IF the world gets its act together and quits the finger pointing and gets down to business instead of using this unfortunant situation to promote their ideology.
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
That's a hat on Cam's head? ? All this time I thought is was a Yarmulka . J I read your post with great interest, Cam. It has a lot I can agree with. One question though. Isolation with a quarantine would be OK for the thugs, but what about the population? They are over 50% children. ============================== And Glenn: where do you get this stuff??? Actually the tongue in cheek scenario in your news flash is one of coalition building, which is a step in the right direction.
Reality check: If we start bombing then many people alive right now may be blown up tomorrow. Yesterday was the memorial of a day in the last Golf War, where over 400 civilians accidentally got blown up by our army.
I think, to take up one of Cam’s points, that the French and the Germans, with excruciating war and violence in their recent past, actually have a unique vantage point hard gained from their history. Evolution does happen.
So I bristle a bit when I see you make casual fun, in a nationalist way, of our European friends. They do not have to agree with our proposed methods. It would only be very convenient if they did. They even agree with the problem in principle, just not with an unnecessarily speedy timetable for war. And they, along with an unquestionable majority in our own country, want to examine all other options more thoroughly first. There could be an uprising in the works, which gets rid of Saddam internally. He could fall over dead. Yes, I know there is the issue of his brood. That is an issue either way. So what is the hurry, really.
If by chance world domination is one of our objectives, then if we align with Europe the World actually COULD be our oyster. If we permanently alienate our European Allies, we are going to be has-beens, and soon. We can swaggeringly pay lip service to rushing through this crisis alone. If we act on it without an alliance and without the UN we not only will have endangered our own population, but the world population. That would give standing alone a whole new meaning.
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