posted
None of us want or like war, but the current situation with the standoff does not appear to be helping anyone. I don't understand U.S. politics but the news that I get seems to be saying that your economy is not going to pick up until this dillema is solved either way. My question to you is "Why didn't George senior finish this job properly 12 years ago"?. My own belief is that George W. has no other option than to get in and seriously kick ass because terrorism is much higher now than it was last time, taking into account that the natives in North Korea are getting restless. Just my $¼ worth.!!
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Why didn't George senior finish this job properly 12 years ago
I'll bump this up with my brief uneducated reply. I don't claim to understand politics AT ALL. And I do know to tread lightly with that topic around here, but in answer to your question quoted above, I think that pushing Iraq out of Kuwait (sp.) was the stated objective (besides whatever other hidden agenda's were un spoken)
I have very little good to say about either president Bush, but as much as killing Saddam seems like it might have been (or still is)a good idea to a relatively clueless, politically ignorant, marginally apathetic individual like myself, I don't think that was the goal really. I just don't know why not.
Part of me thinks it should be the goal now, & part of me does not, so maybe I am a typical example of why the world community has difficulty time aligning into one objective & the appropriate corse of action necessary to achieve it.
I wonder what others will have to say, & if we can get through this discussion like adults.
posted
David, I think the answer to the first part of your question is - everbody here thought the job was done. "It seemed like the right thing to do at the time". We were all happy the war was over, whether we were for the war or against the war going in.
As far as the economy goes, in times of uncertainty I think we all tend to put off long term decisions until things settle down. That's just the way it is.
With the respect to the situation with Iraq right now, those who believe in the power of prayer should be seeking for all our world leaders the wisdom to make the right decisions in the next few weeks. All the rest of us are just watchers and waiters at this point. Vic G
posted
It seems to a lot of us that he (George I) was not allowed to finish what he started. As I'm sure you well know EVERYTHING in the states is a double standard. We say one thing and do another. Untill recently we could not commit assinations as a military force. We also must have a commitment in our government (House and Senate) to put down ground troops. These two things we didn't have during desert storm. Now since Sept 11 it seems that the gloves are off. We simply do not EVER want to have another Vietnam. At the same time we decided (pretty much as a nation) after WW2 that we MUST defend the planet. We don't want much you know... Just world peace. I know that sounds wierd that we must go to war to have peace but, think of it like this... The biggest kid on the block says he will kick your butt if he sees you fighting with the little kid down the street... You think twice about messing with the liitle brat. Pretty soon you either forget about the little kid or you guys work things out. Presto! instant world peace. The trick is to spank the first bugger who tries to harm your little friend.
-------------------- Lee McKee McKee Studios Birmingham, Al Planet Earth (sometimes) Posts: 277 | From: Birmingham, Al | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Yep, as soon as the serious ass-kicking would of started, some voices were wanting to stop. Now we have the same rat looking us right in the eye with a few new ones hiding in the shadows. Europe and Japan would benefit more from the oil from than the U.S., but take a look at the announcement of the U.S. oil reserves being at a 30 year low. All the while oil is at $35+/bbl. Moral is you can make your enemy a rich man at your expense.
posted
I'm not sure if the economy has anyhting to do with it. I mean it does because like Doug said we are in a holding pattern, However, our economy has been a lot worse than it is now. Sure, nobody is buying cars or boats but people have been walking in my door to do business all day long. As far as oil and gas prices, it could be the lowest it's ever been and we would still bitch...Thats the American way! I suppose that we are so dependant on OPEC it drives us nuts. Hey wait a minute! You Canadians have plenty of untapped oil resources...Would you guys like to be Americans? Today Iraq...Tomorrow Quebec See how quick an act of good will can be twisted into tyrancy.
-------------------- Lee McKee McKee Studios Birmingham, Al Planet Earth (sometimes) Posts: 277 | From: Birmingham, Al | Registered: Jan 2003
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I am lucky I was too young to go to 'Nam, but I was old enough to have an opinion, & that was & still is to believe in the possibility of world peace. Or at least to quote John, to "imagine"...
I hope for a good economy, but before any conclusions to the contrary may be construed, I would deal with an economic slump in exchange for peace. War can be good for the economy, & I'm sure that is a fair price to many (lot's of politicians included), but I'd like to think I speak for the average American when I say war is much too high a price to pay just to boost the economy.
As far as supply & demand goes, I am a typical American consumer & if the wally worlds are going to supply goods that deplete more then our share of the worlds raw materials, then it is tough to make the decision at the checkout line not to be part of the problem, but if we as a nation sacrificed our demand for so much schtuff, in exchange for a reduced need to bully other nations, I'd happliy do without the schtuff too.
posted
Doug you have some good points friend. You know, I don't think that I have ever met a SANE intelligent person that is "pro-war" However, I don't see how we can change the world by simply driving our suv's less. The war we fight is the war in our heads. The "enemy" is no different than our own Charlie Manson or David Korresh. They have no logic. We can not use logic to stop them. So... what do you do? My only idea is this: education You know if there were computers in Iraq like we have here in the States there would most likly be no problem. There is something magical about the way we communicate over the internet. For that matter there is something magical about TacoBell at 2:00am. These are things unheard of in their part of the world. These are the essence of America....Freespeech and Freewill. I make jokes about the situation but it's only to make the subject seem understandable. I'm confused by it all. No one wants war...But, everyone wants freedom. It's a ying yang thing I think...One creates the other, the other destroys the thing that created it. (deep thought for the day) P.S. I didn't know they had Wally World in Hawaii! When will those capitalist pigs ever stop?
-------------------- Lee McKee McKee Studios Birmingham, Al Planet Earth (sometimes) Posts: 277 | From: Birmingham, Al | Registered: Jan 2003
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You aint' seen a bad economy unless u lived thru 23% interest rates, gas lines and the inflation of the Carter years. Now the Clinton economy is upon us and falling apart...
The stock market is falling. It was running at an inflated price anyway. It is due to come back to normal..
WHY? large companies lied by selling electricity, oil or whatever at a loss only to buy it back to inflate thier stock values. Thus generating HUGE stock option and cash bonuses for a few select CEO's. The regulators that attempted to stop this were all overruled by Clinton people..
my humble opinion... .
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oh oh. Here we go with a post about politics. I'm going to leave it for now. I'm hoping you guys can have a discussion without personally attacking each other. I try to be optimistic, but history indicates these topics never end good. Here's hoping I won't have to emerge from my plastic-duct tape cocoon to delete this.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
I don't know folks, but Oil seems to be the motivator in this one, let the inspectors keep working, what better way to keep a rat contained and Monitored.
[ February 14, 2003, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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It may seem that way, we also have other ( what I call ) rumors about personal vendettas, and all sort of things. But these are the things that kept Saddam in power from the gulf war. This guy is pure evil and thrives on bestowing fear in people. From the point of freedom being jeopardised by any one terrorist, I am all for removing these people. Not just for the USA but for all civilized mankind.
I have always fealt compassion for our european brothers and sisters that live with terror in their everyday lives.
Never having to even think about it before, nevermind live the fear like we do now, I say we will not tolerate this way of life. And eve n though, I am not a polition nor do I pretend to be knowledgable about it, I do applaud our current president for having the balls to stand in the face of terror and spit in its perverbial eye!
No one wants a war, no one wants to kill innocent woman and children, not to mention dads, brothers, husbands, but no one also wants to live in fear from tirants and terrorists either.
It is a very scary and uncertain time, and I pray to God that our president would have a deeper concern and motive, than to just wage war for oil control's sake.
Have a great day!
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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George I was talked into the idea of keeping SH in power in Iraq as a means of maintaining the balance of power in that region with Iran. Bad advice, bad decision. It would have been a bit like letting Hitler stay in power to "balance" the Soviet Union. Fortunately for the world, Roosevelt and Churchill were much more farsighted than Bush I. Not that these are good comparisons, but you get my drift.
Now we have a far more flammable situation. SH has not attacked or invaded anyone, so the "threat" is much more of a matter of what he might do. The Muslim world looks at the US as a bully; we see them as a violent, alien, backward culture. We have pundits and talking heads that know as much about Islam as about Pluto, yet they are taken for serious "analysts", along with the powerful pro-Israeli lobby who have turned every debate about that poisoned corner of the world into a good vs evil diatribe.
On the other hand, we have an entire generation of Europeans who've been raised and taught that Americans are nothing but loud, greedy a-holes and our government and military as puppets to a corporate agenda. I've been to Europe in the past year, and you would not believe some of the nonsense (and worse) that Europeans have been taught, and believe without question, about our country. There is no surprise that France and Germany are so opposed to any military action; they are democracies and are listening to the will of their people - so until we get a clue as to what their people think of us and why, we aren't going to be able to count on them for any kind of support.
And if anyone thinks Chinese leaders aren't chortling with glee over the fracturing of the Western alliance over Iraq... do we really think the current North Korean nuclear threat is a co-incidence? Please....
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I saw a documentary last week about this very dilemma. It was fairly enlightening...
part of it was an excerpt of an interview with Schwarzkopf (sp?)- apparently at the time of Desert Storm, the UN only gave a mandate to the invading forces to TAKE BACK KUWAIT. There was no provision for attacking into Iraq. He said that as well as a couple of Frontline officers in other interviews. When the Iraqis retreated past their own border the coalition troops could only stand and watch as the Iraqis massacred their own people 2 miles away that were trying to rebel. So it is not the US's "fault" that Saddam is still around- as usual the UN dropped the ball. Bush Sr. put his foot in his mouth by telling the Northern Kurds he'd help them, but that gaffe aside the US was actually staying within the UN mandate. Now look where it got them. If anyone believes Saddam hasn't helped the terrorists they need to give their head a shake. He had his own FAMILY killed... I said it before and I'll say it again- people can claim this is about oil or Grecian Formula or whatever, but if they had killed 3000 people by bombing the Kremlin or Tel Aviv they would be talcum powder right now and no-one would stand up and say boo. France may want more weapons inspectors, but only a TOTAL moron would keep any nuclear material where these saps could find it...and Saddam is anything but. Of all people France should know what it is like to appease a dictator, or to under-estimate him...maybe they have forgotten what the map of Europe looked like in 1941??? We are just lucky Saddam's army can't get out of it's own way, or we wouldn't have a choice on how to deal with him.
[ February 14, 2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Steve Burke ]
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
iam a viet nam era vet, i refused to go to nam when i was in the air force....i dispised johnson, nixon for their love of the war machinery.also was not a geo sr. supporter. i dont know the exact figures ill say 100,000 lives were lost in viet nam. and i want one person to tell me what good came outa that war. popular song in the 60's words are "WAR, WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR? .....ABSOLULTLY NOTHING" still hold true at this time. vietnam, the korean conflict were both nothing more then organized population control. the only people who made anything in either one of these wars was the "war machinery" producers. and its been 30 yrs since nam. all the weapons that were made after nam to replenish the u.s. with "weapons of mass destruction" are all old and need to be destroyed....so hence we need to have some kinda military "inaction" to rid ourselves of this potetially dangerously old weapons, planes, etc so they can be replaced with new one(and get congress/senate to approve more money for their production) and all the companies who supported bushes selection will get their profits up. as for a war with with the muslims, we are headed into a war that wont end with the taking of iraq, it will put us on a path of a 100 years war. after we invade iraq, the muslin countries will form a tighter bond against the .U.S. there will be more terrorist type attacks all over the world. we say we wont fight a holy war but "GOD BLESS AMERICA" aint exactly non religious. now it up to god to help us KILL THE MUSLIMS, and their god is gona help them KILL THE INFIDELS. not real smart to play into their game. as for bush 1 not taking out SH when he was there..well no one seems to remember what else was going on in this country when the "gulf war" was a distraction for the fact that geo sr. other son neil was in charge of the SAVINGS AND LOANS and run them into the ground similar to ENRON. in the mean time geo w and jeb were buying S&L defunk properties for 10 cents on the dollar value. remember this; wars are never about ideaology, the are always about MONEY!!!!! also i agree with russia, germany, france and our canadian friends....ALL DIPLOMATIC CHANNELS MUST BE TOTALLY EXHAUSTED OR THE U.S. IS ATTACKED, before i will agree we need this stupid war!!!
[ February 14, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I'm not sure how by going to war today will effect our economy. Will out of work people be employed to help build tanks? I don't think so. As a matter of fact we get most of our equipment produced over seas. Will going to war lower prices at the gas pump? No, as a matter of fact when we do start the good fight people will be in line to purchase gas at an inflated price. People are not going to buy houses because we are at war. People will stop going to the movies and stay at home. People will stop eating out and stay at home glued to the T.V. In my opinion this little crusade is not motivated by greed. It is to stop a cancer. We HAVE been attacked. We have suffered a worst cheap shot than 10 Pearl Harbors. Pearl Harbor was about soldiers. The Japanese wanted to kill as many gun toteing G.I.'s as they could but these people want to destroy ALL of us, Men, Women, and children. Two things they are taboo to discuss are religion and politics. This little thread is both. Please don't think that I am a war monger. I'm sure most conservative people are not either. However, This country I love and I'll put down my brush and pick up a gun if it is the only way to keep it the way it is. I don't want a mosque on every street corner or to pray five times a day. I have enough trouble just making it to church every Sunday.
-------------------- Lee McKee McKee Studios Birmingham, Al Planet Earth (sometimes) Posts: 277 | From: Birmingham, Al | Registered: Jan 2003
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Haven't we already been attacked? Been to NYC lately? It's an F'ing mess!!! We can't allow this to happen again. Whether it's here, DC, Bali or where ever. What kind of tune would France and Germany be singing if that beautiful tower and parts of their cities were destroyed? Probaly God Bless America while sticking the bill up all of our arses.
I pray for peace everyday and hate to see what this place will be like for our kids if we don't come up with a peaceful resolution.
This isn't meant to be an attack on anyone but a reflection on how I feel about the whole stinkin' thing.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I think the question of a peaceful solution vs. a violent solution is way oversimplified. It's not like we have 2 solutions on the table that are guaranteed to work & both with a different set of pros & cons.
War is not a clear finite "solution" that we can evaluate all it's costs in advance, & it sure ain't guaranteed to solve anything. Peaceful solutions are also an enigma far easier to pray for then to succeed with, & would require costs or sacrifice's as well.
I think the ideology behind an anti-war opinion, (for me) is based in part on an assumption that the information I recieve from news reports available to me may not all be true.
If Korea is about to launch weapons onto American soil - level them first, or same with Saddam, if Anthrax is really heading our way, we should put an end to it, BUT... just because the news says all this evil is at our doorstep, I just don't always know if this information is completely correct. That is why I am torn about what needs to happen.
Alan,
quote:This isn't meant to be an attack on anyone
you are clearly responding to O.P.'s remark & I think you know he is aware of 9-11, but who attacked? & where are they?
If we are going to keep this discussion (that we all need to be able to try to make sense of while it keeps coming down around us) from getting personal (& getting deleted) let's not direct our at each other.
posted
I get your points Doug and Myra. Appolgies to OP. The angry faces weren't meant to be towards anyone that is posting here. Honest. It's ALL about how I felt watching NYC burn from across the river and all the loss of life. It still makes me sick to my stomach thinking of it. And to think of all the others that will lose their lives, Americans, innocent(oppressed) Iraqis and anyone in between is just as sick a thought.
As far as the solution? Not sure. I don't think sitting on our hands will solve the problem. This is something we will have to deal with as long as we live, regardless of what happens in the next year or so. I feel much better about an alliance disarming these people who are so full of hate and their WMD now than playing nuclear vollyball in 2-3 years.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
The US is having a hard time finding allies against Iraq, partly, because foreigners seem to believe there's not much more to it than oil for America.
Browse the Federal Highway Admistration (FHWA), and see that Americans are burning more petroleum to drive, and paying more for it, than they were thru the "oil crises" of 1973 and '79. I don't suppose the rest of the world would mind having an urban assault wagon to drive to the video store, and when they do, look out!
Who'll drop a bomb on Saddam, Saddam, Saddam? Who'll drag a bag over Baga-Baga-Bagdad? Who'll flack-attack on Iraq-Iraq-Iraq? Who'll jab a stab at the scab of Babylonia? — The Capitol Steps
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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ok from most of these posts i read, the MEDIA & THIS ADMINITRATIONS war council has done its job very well. what am i talkin bout? the 2 mentioned above have taken 9-1-1 and turned it into the cry for us to go on the offensive with any country that doesnt agree with this govt. plain and simple, as g.w. says "your either with us or against us", sounds like a grade school kid in a fight on the parking lot turf. ive seen jokes passed round that RUSSIA, CANADA, FRANCE & GERMANY are NOW are ENIMIES!!!! i dont think its funny, it sad that americans can even think this way. as for the media and admin, they have also clouded the issue of who the enemy is. after 9-1-1 it was the terrorists, then they said it was osama and al quida. ok we went to afganastan to get em(remember these are the enemy). wa ARE STILL THERE, OSAMA IS ALIVE AND WELL. job not finished or since we cant get him, let go after someone else. your civil liberties have taken a big hit thru all this, ashcroft has been workin well, not only is it for the terrorists but any one in this nation that has any disageement with this govt, like the "suvivalists", they are also the target. now the man in charge goes on to the meida with AXIS OF EVIL , and names countries on his "hit parade". north korea was quite untill they were insulted. now the eastern mind likes to "save face". so what do they do but respond to verbal attack. so here we sit, with more tumoil then any one country needs or can handle, iam not even going into the U.S./ISRALE problems. thats also part of this whole mess. as i said before....now the issue is clouded, who did what dont matter....its like the u.s. is a dog that was abused, now it dosent matter who it bites....as long as it bites someone!!!!! now is the time for people with diplomacy and the abilty to see the future and what the ramifactions will be for our children and their children. isnt this what the U.S. has lived by for many years? not just an lets go kick some a**, for the moment...yea it will feel good for "instant gratifaction", but in the long run as in any war, it will CREATE MORE ENEMIES, MORE HATE, MORE DISTRUST IN THIS once wonderful and powerful nations. ive also seen people like me refered to UNAMERICAN, because i disagree with with WAR, in the way this country is going about it. iam ok with that.......i know better.
[ February 14, 2003, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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That's right, Myra - no girls allowed! in the He Man Woman Haters Club, Spanky & Alfalfa Presidents. This is for the testosteroners to thump our chests. We're overloaded on all that pink frilly chick stuff that's been going on all day. Yecch. I'm ready for a Schwarzenegger movie about now... Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Mikey, I guess this was an invite, right? And Joe, you said it better, but I want to add a few points, and Mr. Mayor, thanks for letting this thread go on. I won't take issue with anyone, just line up a few facts as they look through my eyes and ears.
There are nuclear weapons in Pakistan, India, China, North Korea and the United States. There are categorically no such weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Yet we are pre-occupied with Iraq. What Saddam Hussein has is weapons for biological warfare. He would not be foolish enough to unleash them on us. Because he knows that in a New York minute, we, in possession of the Mother Lode of the nuclear arsenal on earth, would wipe him off the map. He therefore is not a clear and present danger to us today. And when it comes to the future, he is containable. He is mortal. Inspections would have a phenomenal chance of working.
The fastest way to find the weapons he does have is by attacking him and suffering the consequences. The highest probability of danger in that situation is one of chemical attack on our troops, and I therefore propose we support our troops by bringing them home.
The second highest endangerment is to our population, none of which will be averted or helped by tarps and duct tape. If we go and shoot first in Iraq, renewed terrorism on our soil is what we need to fear. But it will be coming from the people who have proven that they are our attackers, who are led by Osama whose name President Bush II has not yet mentioned this year. They would be attacks resulting from outrage at our invasion of Iraq. Not because Al Quaida and Saddam collaborated about the horror of the 9/11 attack, of which no proof whatsoever has been presented to us. But because it would be a retalliation on our soil for destabilization and invasion of Arabs and the Middle East. Part of what brought on the hatred and the horror of 9/11 is our acting like we are the boss and that the stars and stripes rule the world. We are not in charge, nor are we entitled to any police type actions.
What we are proposing, by invading a country made up of more than 50 percent children, in order to take out a rogue and a dictator and a horrible human being – is the same as shooting a passenger plane out of the sky because the pilot committed a crime. We are talking about WAR. We may be killing a hundred thousand people. Where do we think we have the right to shoot first. We used to be the good guys. We cannot use bombs to bring Democracy to Iraq. Peace is achieved through the Brain, not the Brawn.
When the war is over, the talk is not of putting a new leader in as we did in Afghanistan . We are planning to be the ones who will lead Iraq for a number of years with a number of billions of dollars. Of course we also will be in charge of the oil. Which will pay for the leadership. Go figure.
When it comes to Bush the first, the situation is not nearly as simple as it seems. It’s not just that he did not finish. He had a lot to answer for, when it came to the US position towards Saddam Hussein. I am not willing to research the details in minutae, but I do know that in 1983 President Reagan ( with VP Bush) sent Donald Rumsfeld to take an offer of MILITARY and business aid, and an offer of respect to Saddam Hussein, who at the same time was gassing Kurds and Iranians on the battle fields, and was developing other weapons. This was confirmed at that time by the United Nations. I also know that a woman envoy, April somebody, was sent to tell Saddam Hussein in June of the year before he invaded Kuweit that we would in essence not step in should he decide to do that. So we reneged. And there was Bush I, he had liberated Kuweit as the world had authorized him to do, along with a solid coalition of world support. He was not authorized to kill Saddam. He hoped and encouraged the Iraqi citizens to assassinate, and I remember that he dropped leaflets giving them the hint. It just did not work.
What we are risking in going in alone is so monstrous, that I cannot even fathom it. The world can’t all be wrong. Tony Blair only has about 5 percent of the support of the people in Britain. He used to be popular, now he is toast. The countries that do not support us do not on the other hand support Saddam – that is not the issue. With world opinion against him, as it is, there is no need to go and obliterate thousands of innocents, while the culprit is in a deep down bunker. Remind you of someone in a cave last year??? If we are a nation of warmongers, and a nation that models to others that solving conflict by war is OK, who will be our enemy next year, and what will become of this earth and it’s people. Kennedy said: Man must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. Like I said Peace takes Brain – not Brawn. This is 2003. There must be a better way.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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So far I don't see much conflict in this "political" thread ...everybody seems apposed to war. Let it run for a while Steve
Just wanna add my two pennies worth .... very selfish reasons for not wanting a War.
1. My son is 19 and in the Australian Army Airborne. Ozzie has heaps of our best troops backing the USA right now in the Gulf. SAS, Airforce and Navy. If all hell breaks out my son goes too.
2. I plan on being in USA for the first two weeks in March. If war is on I'm sure terrorist activity will increase everywhere and even if it don't, security is going to be extra tight. Who needs that on a holiday?
BUT, we are coming to USA. Yer can't put off crossing the road because you think a truck might be coming hahahahahha
posted
Thinking of our Aussie brothers here, I just watched Gallipoli tonight on the History Channel. A very good reminder of the horrors of war and the hubris of those that go in thinking it will be such a cakewalk.
I think buying duct tape is a good idea, but maybe for sealing the mouths of the many who don't have a clue as to what they are talking about in urging this war on.
When exactly did America become an empire anyways?
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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I know many of you are experiencing more stress than usual right now. It has to be especially hard for those with young families. We'd like to see Letterville used to express your fears and hopefully get some sort of understanding and support from your Letterville Family.
So how are you all coping with this added stress? How are your kids coping?
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
What amazes me is the lack of military/political intelligence. Supposedly, we can read the date on a coin with sattelite photography. We can also tune in on electronic data, and decode it at nearly any level. We have equiptment that sees in the dark, and that can hear anything from remarkable distance. Also bombs that we can place down a chimney. Why can't our leaders, take care of the problems at hand, without the envolvment of the general population? Insiders or special tactical forces, could get these jobs done it would appear to me. Nip it in the bud.. Maybe I have watched too many movies......
I for one believe that the effort is genuinely in our behalf, be it right or wrong. I just never understand the killing of innocent brothers and sisters, be they right or wrong.
As for the improvement of world economies, it is going to require lifting the cloud of funk that covers our attitudes. I'm pretty sure that some closure on the Middle East matter is needed for this to occur, but a long drawn out evolvement is not the answer. Use some intelligence.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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The world would be a much differnt place with out war. However, how do you achieve it? The Romans had "Pax Romanvs" (1000 years of peace) I wonder how they did it? Will the end justify the means? This war is meant to bring peace and stability to that part of the world. Israel lives with DAILY attacks like 911. Women are treaded like garbage. "Criminals" are usally killed on site or publicly beheaded with no trial etc... We are not fighting the people of Iraq, we are fighting the government. We want only to bring peace to the people. Things like education, art, or even Taco Bells. This war is needed. Not all wars are justified. But this one ,In my opinon, is.
-------------------- Lee McKee McKee Studios Birmingham, Al Planet Earth (sometimes) Posts: 277 | From: Birmingham, Al | Registered: Jan 2003
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Apparently none of our opinions matter to our government. More people are against war than for it in this matter, including me. Its a war of politics, not for the security of the world. Our main worry should be the members of the Al Quaida and their forces. Those are the people we have to worry about. They are the ones that will attack us on our own soil. IF this war happens, our wonderful free country, will forever change, for the worst. IT will be a country of shut ins, afraid to go anywhere, to do anything. Always wondering what will happen next. The danger is not in IRaq, its right here at home. And it will increase dramatically if we allow our leaders to carry out their threats.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Myra, I wish I had your capability to type the words I feel about war. you GO girl. I like reading what you have to say.
I see my friends sons leaving for the armed forces. I see my sons friends signing up. It is a very scary time.
People cancelling their vacation plans.....people stocking up on duct tape???? At stop lights you just mind your own business and look straight ahead. Yes it is getting to be an uptight world.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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As much as I like the passive attitudes, I myself don't believe that things (terrorist attacks) are going to subside at all by using them. The world has inherited their leaders in many different ways to take care of these problems for our various societies. If it weren't for these types of issues, we wouldn't need armies and navies, etc. These issues could/should be taken care of by those people directed to do those jobs without envolving the public. I don't need to know that Saddam was defeated, in a cure for world peace. I don't even want to hear the Poof! I want civilized people to enjoy their lives, without the up to the minute news. I am all for fair shakes, but also for Pooooofff, when it is best for mankind. That meaning a direct hit on the problems, with maybe film at 11:00. I think this could go a long way in diverting terrorist attemts and successes. Just my opinion. In order for passivness to work at all, requires that all are passive. No such luck.... bronzeo
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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the question of the day yesterday on MSNBC web site was STOP THE TALK AND GET ON WITH THE WAR? you can answer yes or no and then it will let you see the NATIONAL polled answers. i checked it last nite a 2 am and it was 52% to 48% in favor of continuing talk. there was another poll in time magizine web site: OF THESE COUNTRIES, IRAQ, N.KOREA, U.S.A., WHICH IS THE GREATEST THREAT TO WORLD PEACE? U.S.A. came out at 70+%, being the greatest threat. just thought id add these if any missed them.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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This is a war of the mind folks. Terror will not go away if we just sit on our hands. Iraq is Not Al-Quida. However, They both hate us for the same reasons. We will not stop at Iraq. We will next step in at Isreal, then India, then Korea, then Indochina, then who knows. As soon as we make our move the world will turn upside down. The only way to stop it is to give the people of these countries the right to choose. I don't mean force them to accept our western ways. We like free thinking. We accept governments other than Democracy with open arms. We love you Canadians the way you guys are, Socalism and all. The point is that these people have been fed garbage for hundreds of years. Islam is a beautiful religion. Islam teaches peace and tolerance for others. The religion these people follow is NOT Islam. Their "government" has twisted and changed Islam into a tool of fear to warp the mind of other wise peaceful people. This is what must stop. We have to change the minds of these people. But, first we must remove the demons that run the show. I'm happy to see that we can discuss all this as community. Artist have a generalized passive, don't hurt anyone, point of view to most people. But, I know we all think differntly. It is a wonderful thing that we can sit in the comfort of our office chair and debate the pros and cons of life it self. I just wish everone had that power. I think that this is just about all I have to say abut this. I hope I didn't make any enemies among you guys.
-------------------- Lee McKee McKee Studios Birmingham, Al Planet Earth (sometimes) Posts: 277 | From: Birmingham, Al | Registered: Jan 2003
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I think the American Government has our intrests at heart. I do not believe this showdown with Hussein has anything to do with oil. We have a saying in Texas, Remember the Alamo, even after 150 years it brings response to terrorism. I believe 911 is our call to make a firm stand for freedom everywhere. If Bush can't do anything but Threaten, Hussein will never be eliminated. His people can't protest. I believe we let the Iraqui people down once, when Geo. Sr was president, they were rebelling all over Iraq, and we let the soldiers go home. This cannot happen again. Bush needs to be firm and real about the whole situation. And I think he will. Just an opinion of a guy who supports his God, His Country, and His President. I hope those of us who stand behind the President will send him an e-mail and let him know he is not standing alone. MailTo:president@whitehouse.gov Bill
[ February 15, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Bill Biggs ]
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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David; The meaning of war was once defined to me as..."Mass sacrifice for the philosopy of the state" by a Camel driver who has turned sheep herder. The Butch family are oil people, they have surounded themselves in management with oil people. The guy they are persuing sits on the worlds 2nd largest oil reserve. Butch's daddy says we want that oil son, go get it.Butch Jr. says how dad? Butch Sr. says start a war son, we have plenty of 3rd world immigrants to fill the military ranks thanks to "Elleo" who got you into office, right son? Oh yeah thats right dad, I'll call Jed right now. God I love this "Plutocracy". Yessah son, keepem ignorant and makem live in fear...let our thoughts energize their desires. Life is just a costume party, many century's of traditional philosophy dressed in current clothing...
J.G. Kurtzman
-------------------- John Kurtzman J.G. Kurtzman Sign Shop 97 Taylor Ave. Norwalk, Ct. 06854
----------------------------------- Creative communication since 1959 Posts: 213 | From: So. Norwalk, Ct. USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Is this a war for oil? I don't think so. We'd have it already if it were. Do I believe France and Russia want peace for oil? Yep. We know that they are already owed billions by Saddam and have been given certain oil rights. Taking out Saddam means the possibility of France and Russia losing billions that they can't afford.
Dubya said early on in his campaign about the need for Saddam to obey the 16 UN resolutions. He didn't. While I don't believe for a second that Saddam had anything to do with 9-11, I do believe it has become a catalist. 9-11 has reminded us of what is possible if we let our guard down and let evil fester like a boil on the butt of the Earth.
Watching the protests in New York and England today tells me that Dubya is probably right in what he is doing. Look at who the protesters are - socialists and Communists. Now, before someone rolls his eyes at the word "Communists", I suggest checking out the group ANSWER that is organizing these protest marches. It is a branch of the World Workers Party. These are the people that hold men like Stalin in high regard. While they talk a convincing game, I suggest looking at who they support. Frankly, anything they support (such as No War in Iraq) makes me highly suspicious.
Some would argue that we could just contain Saddam. We've been doing that for 12 years. It hasn't worked very well. And, how long do you propose that we continue to contain him? Until he dies? And what do we do when Uday takes over? Do we continue the containment? How long? 5 more years? 20? 50? How much money are we willing to spend then? And, if we continue containment and inspections, doesn't that serve to help keep Saddam in power?
In Blix own words, inspectors are not there to try and catch Saddam in the act. They are there to verify his compliance with the terms of the cease-fire. They know what he has based on his own record keeping. There are tons of stuff unaccounted for. He says it has been destroyed. Its his job to prove it. He hasn't.
No one wants war. I certainly don't. I also don't like the idea of letting someone like Saddam winning. I don't like the idea of him being in a position of being able to blackmail the world by being a source of weapons for Al Qaeda either.
[ February 16, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
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socialilist and communists....that line is from 1952....McCARTHYISUM!!!! this is 2003!!!! 2 words that struck fear and hatred into this country and ruined many lives by just "implicating" an association with anyone connected to its belife and the stigma and meaning still have power today. also its another word for the "division" of "your either with us or against us." so it helps this govt do as the terrorist are trying to do, keep this country IN FEAR AND DIVIDE THE POPULATION. if you buy into it then THEY HAVE WON... this an excert from WORKERS WORLD...... We put our ideas into practice. We are in the student movement, the labor movement, the women's movement, the lesbian/gay/bi/trans movement, the anti-war and anti-racist movements. We fight hard for a better life right now, but we know that nothing is secure--not our jobs, our homes, our health care, our pensions, our civil rights and liberties--as long as capitalism exists. So our goal is a society run by the workers, not just as pawns in a capitalist political game but as collective owners of the social wealth. sorta tells you that they are for equality...so are most of us, but it DOESNT SAY THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP THAT IS ANTI -WAR! as for ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ANTI WAR... THEY DO NOT BELONG TO OR ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS GROUP, AND THIS GROUP WAS NOT THE ORGANIZER FOR ALL THE WORLD PROTEST MARCHES TODAY. this is how things taken outa context. this group of people dont make up 1% of the anti war demonstrators.......i know iam not a supporter of this group nor iam a communist. words have power, i know, just play a little word association with yourself, BLONDE=DUMB, POLOCK=DUMB, JAP,JEW, WOP,RAGHEAD, all bring up an image that has been formed in your mind....depending on how you where 1st introduced to these words. DICTATOR,PRESIDENT,KING,PRINCE,QUEEN, or whatever name of a ruler or head of country you choose all have some "predisposed image" in our minds. if you call bush president, it has one meaning to most, call him king, it changes who he is. its just an example dont take it any onther way. so this is a tactic used all over the world to garner support for each groups agendas. am no scholar by any stretch of the word, but i try to "say what i mean & mean what i say"...........
[ February 16, 2003, 04:36 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Appolgies to OP. The angry faces weren't meant to be towards anyone that is posting here. Honest. It's ALL about how I felt watching NYC burn from across the river and all the loss of life. It still makes me sick to my stomach thinking of it. And to think of all the others that will lose their lives, Americans, innocent(oppressed) Iraqis and anyone in between is just as sick a thought. 
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