posted
Me and buddy were having a conversation that turned into a debate, so I thought this would be a good topic for here. So, here goes.
The senario...
You, as an artist hand draw with ink and pencil a rendering of a famous race car personality. Let's use, say Larry Dixon, NHRA Top fuel Champion sponsor by Miller Lite Brewing, among a host of others. We will use him for no other reason than he is the reigning TF Champion.
In this drawing you depict Larry from the shoulders up, you can see many of the patch's on the top of his shirt with lots of different companies, He has a Miller Lite hat on with NHRA stiched in the side, his Top Fuel Dragster with the huge "Lite" graphics, right down to the smallest decal, In the background is his Freightliner Transporter with all logo's perfectly, and lets not forget the NHRA Championship trophy.
You originally plan this a just something you did for "You". Then low a behold someone see's it and wants to make "prints" of it and sell them to the general public.
The debate is, Do you owe any royalties to Larry Dixon, what about Miller Lite??? Then there is Don Prudhomme, he owns the car. What about all those liitle contingency decals you painstakingly got just right????
What about the guy who did the original paint scheme for the car??? And last but not least, let's not forget the NHRA. Their name is everywhere, especially on that Championship Trophy. What abot the shop that designed the trophy. What about Wally Parks, he is on the trophy???
Even if you did not pay any royalty money out, would you need a "Letter of Release" from ALL parties involved?????
Remeber, this is your artwork in the fact that what you saw (maybe not at the same time) you stored in your minds eye and was then able to arrange in just the right order so it would flow evenly from your brain, thru your neck, down your arm, all in a logical manor and coming gracfully flowing from you minds eye to the pen to the paper. Your arangment, you got the car angle exactly as you saw in your mind. Larry never looked better except for the stubble he missed just far enough away from his side burn that you "do" notice he missed it. The trophy almost reflects light from your table lamp, you nailed it so good. And that transporter, you could have sworn you smelled diesel fuel as you laid in the last few highlights.
I will reserve my opinion for later on as I want other peoples opinions and not just to agree/disagree with anything I say.
BTW, I have drawn several race cars and drivers for my own personal enjoyment, but the "person' wanting to make prints is strictly [b]Hypothectical[/] at this time. Believe me I would love someone to have that much admiration for my drawings but I am satisfied just drawing for me and my son. He is so inqusitive(sp?) wants to know why I put each line where I put. He wants to learn so bad. In fact he is and going to be a lot better artist than I ever will be. Especially if he doesn't take after his father when it comes to being "SOOOOOOOO" critacal of his work. He is just like me right now, Nothing ever looks good enough and we always look back at it and think what could be done different or "this or that" doesn't look right...you know the drill!!!
Can't say I've given this any great thought, but don't imagine there is a copyright issue involved.
Wouldn’t it be the same as drawing a street scene and requiring copyright releases from all the architects, homeowners, car designers, street sign and furniture designers etc, etc.?
Arthur
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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Not sure but I seem to remember not too long ago someone getting sued for selling "drawings" of the Three Stooges. I would asume there would be some type of permission needed to sell someones likness.
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Troy,..did he pose for you? if so then you own the copyrights,....if you did the drawing from a photo,...who took the photo? If you took the photograph then you do,...as for reproductions if they include logo's and such, you of all people should know they belong to their respective owners and are copyrighted to protect them from reproduction and abuse. The best bet is to show the artwork to those who own any rights to copyrights shown and get permission and license for reproductions. Most major race car teams address copyrights pertaining to names/teams/logos and license such for reproduction and marketing,including the individual drivers and their personal namesake.It is big business down here in the carolinas.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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In my opinion, if you sketch the likeness of any person, from your minds eye, relying on no other copyrighted resource to create the image, then you flat-out own it. And you may do with it as you please.
You might, however, have an issue with the use of the subjects' name.
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
Instagram: Purcell Woodcraft
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 902 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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I don't see how any person can own any other persons image even if it was reproduced from the eyes and head. Your eyes, brain, and head are only tools just like a camera.
Nobody owns my image except me. If you want to use my face to make money then give me a percentage of it and go for it unless I say otherwise.
It comes down to the issue of legality and enforceability, two very broad issues of practicality.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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As a celebrity or public figure, you can take a picture of him yourself and sell it (as in the tabloids) and I would assume everything he wears goes along with it (airbrush it all out and show him nude???) Those patches and stuff ARE being worn for the purpose of being seen and associated with him, so if the image of him is legal, then the image of the patches should be too.
-------------------- Bob Sheers 24 Hour Services Columbia, MD USA 410-995-3655 bob@go-to-airport.com Posts: 140 | From: Columbia, MD, USA | Registered: Sep 1999
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Seems to me like it should be OK but remember that lawsuit Corel got hit with after using the drawing of Hedy Lamarr for CorelDraw 8? That image was a contest wining drawing that John Corkery did using CorelDraw. I think he got permission from the photographer for the photo that he used for the drawing but after the lawyers got done Corel still had to settle with Hedy.
-------------------- Chris Elliott 1longshot@classicnet.net cell 62084two2232 Posts: 686 | From: Scottsdale, AZ & Anthony, KS, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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Well, I see it pretty much like this.........
Opinions don't mean squat...!!!
If ya don't "know", you can open a big bag of worms for yourself !!! Research it where you can get "Qualified" information... Last I heard, there were no "Bottom-feeders" around here.....
If it were me, I would take the completed artwork directly to "Larry Dixon", (or who-ever) and if "He" likes it........Ask "Him" what it would take to get something going with it.......or if he would even want to........He might just buy it as a personall one-of-a-kind piece for himself........
But what the hell would I know.....?? heheheh
.......cj
"bottom-feeder = lawyer"
[ February 10, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: CJ Allan ]
-------------------- CJ Allan CJs Engraving 982 English Dr. Hazel, KY 42049
posted
I must say, I am not amazed. This place once again has showed me different points of view and all are valid.
As I said, I would reserve my position, but we have had enough response so I will put in my 2 cents.
When I wrote this post I had a clear position of... even though "you drew" the original, someone else did all the designs for each company and therfore would be a copyright infringement if you tried to sell it. As well as most drivers have thier "likeness" copyrighted.
What has made me think is the "Photo" aspect and the newspapers/tabloids, not sure how that is legal when I think about it that way. Camara vs. Pen and pencil????
CJ, I have checked with 3 "bottom feeders" (my Dad, brother and sister-in-law) but since none of them practice this type of law, they would not feel comfortable giving advise that could be wrong or simply out-dated.
If THREE (3) lawyers won't give advise on this subject, because they don't "Specialize" in this field.........shows how complicated it can get !!
And that's the way all lawyers like it...... Job Security for them.....!!
I would still do it the way I suggested, or just hang it on my wall. If he goes for it......they have plenty of bottom-feeders working for them to work out the details.....
........cj
-------------------- CJ Allan CJs Engraving 982 English Dr. Hazel, KY 42049
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The restaurant I eat dinner at every night has hand drawn portraits of the famous dead Nascar guy. Im not into it so don't know much about the drivers. I think its the number 3 guy or maybe its and 8?
I met the artist who drew them and they are extremely good portraits some with the car in the background. I asked him what he sold them for and he told me the portraits are free but the frames they come in go for $100.00
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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I've Actualy put some research into this myself, as I paint hollywood celebs. From all I learned, an artistic representation of an individuals image is legal, as for the logos, I'm not sure. but when pop art hit the scene, Andy Warhol reproduced the campbells label, brillo boxes etc. He even reproduced Marilyn monroe and elvis to name a few, using actual photographs and production stills. He was never sued.
-------------------- Glendon Vollmer Icon 9 Design Studio 211 Morris Cr. Crum Lynne, PA zodiaxart@yahoo.com Posts: 12 | From: Crum Lynne, PA | Registered: Feb 2003
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Having been the one doing the suing over a copyright infringement, I can tell you this much -
A: it's who has the best lawyer (read that, cubic money)
B: the parties involved (big co. vs. little guy, two little guys, etc.)
C: the opinion of the judge (you may want an astrologer and bio-rhythmist to plot your court date...)
In the case you described, I can assure you Prudhomme would send you a letter wanting money. He has never let a penny get past him. The rest are a cointoss, as some will let it slide and chalk it up to free advertising/public relations, while others would sue your pants off.
Kenny Youngblood would be the man with the answers, as he has done numerous portraits/prints just as you describe. (www.youngbloodart.com)
At least around here, the decision on what is 'infringement' is solely up to the presiding judge, or jury, if you can get that far. What he/she sees and how they see it, is all there is to it. Nothing scientific.
It may be that the issue is not a copyright but a "trademark" issue, this is even more confusing.
Information regarding portraits and the like can be found in the "Lanham Act" that can be accessed by doing a google search for that topic. There are numerous web sites dedicated to the explanation of this act. They all confuse the hello out of me.
Quite a bit of legal jargonese.
Hope this helps.
Steve
-------------------- Steve Aycock Designs 3489 Oswald St. Johns Island, SC zaor@warpdriveonline.com Posts: 124 | From: Charleston, SC | Registered: Feb 2003
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I think that using the image of a celebrity or public known person to make $$$ without his/her permission would be an infrigment to the law protecting their right to control the commercial use of their image/identity. so you must ask.
then again, being the creator of the art, if you sell your artwork to that guy and he use it to promote himself you can collect royalties.
the logos on his gears? may be fair use cause it his part of his image...may be a trademark issue
worth .02cnd
É
-------------------- Élaine Beauchemin scrip Lettrage Scripsit inc. St-Hubert, Quebec, Canada www.scripsit.net Posts: 1096 | From: Saint-Hubert, Québec, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
That image was a contest wining drawing that John Corkery did using CorelDraw. I think he got permission from the photographer for the photo that he used for the drawing but after the lawyers got done Corel still had to settle with Hedy.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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