posted
Lady calls me up Tuesday. She has just purchased a new White Chevy Astro Van and is looking into what it will cost to have it lettered for her linen business. She saw a van I did a couple of months ago for another linen company and she got my name from him. Her place of business is over 40 miles away.
She would like this job to be cheap. Letters not too fancy, Black with no other colors.
Are you ready for this? In order to keep the costs down, she would like (1) panel done on the drivers side, well maybe she says a rear door too!! How much will it cost??
So, I told her I'd have to call her back in a day or two.
I can't seem to want to do this job so I was wondering, if anybody would like to tackle this, I'd be more than happy to give you this kind ladys phone number so that she can get half of her brand new van lettered.
Let me know.......
[ January 10, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Mark Neurohr ]
-------------------- Mark Neurohr "Ernest" Paintin' Place 141 Sunnyside Road Kittanning, PA 16201
posted
Hey, bring up the money, how much is she willing to spend. I would say, 'I'm sure I can acommodate you, what does your budget allow for you to spend?' If she says a really ridiculous amount, tell her you can't do anything for her at that rate. Then try to sell her a basic black vinyl lettering job. If she can't do that, then say Im' sorry etc. And hang up.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3942 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I would give her a price as if for both sides and rear. After she gets her breath back and asks how much a complete lettering job is, tell her you always throw in the second door for free. That way you get your proper fee and she thinks she is getting a good deal. Hey, sometimes it works!
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I wouldn't make an art project out of it, just give her what she wants....price it by the letter and put on the transfer tape and tell her how to install it with the hinge method. If she doesn't want to do that, tell her it will be blank amount to install it. No big deal.
I get so many cheapo customers around here that it doen't bother me anymore...I just do it like they ask and save the creativity for the other projects I got going. Those small jobs can pay the rent, so to speak. You never know, that lady may have some initial start up problems with her business, and may come back next year and want something really nice. Like they say, ya never know !!
[ January 10, 2003, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Ogden ]
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Some people, no matter what, will ever see the value of their signs. THE LEAST EXPENSIVE ADVERTISING YOU CAN GET! Pay through the nose for a yellow page ad, but skimp on EVERYTHING else. Remind her that since she is STARTING in business, first impressions are everything.
When people start this with me I explain that I'd rather not do it because it is a reflection on me. I take pride in my work and I'd rather turn it down. I don't want my stuff looking like the new town hack that was pushing burgers across the counter last week, and thanks to a computer & sticka is in the sign business this week.
Would she be willing to only wash half of the linens for a customer? Probably not. if so she won't be in business long.
Just my opinion
-------------------- Skidmore Sign Co. 3806 1st Avenue North Birmingham AL 35222 205-251-6049
Skidmore Signs - Facebook
"Success always occurs in private, but failure in full view."
posted
I have you beat (I posted this a while back myself). One customer I had didn't like any quotes from any sign shop. The owner finally emailed me and asked if he could bring over some vinyl (who knows what brand, size, age, etc.) and have me cut it for him. I never returned that email.
You could sell her some vinyl and an exacto knife and tell her all the letters are on the vinyl, all you have to do is cut them out and put them on - it's really easy and inexpensive. She'll be begging you to do the job for whatever price in short order.
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
quote:Originally posted by Brian Diver: You could sell her some vinyl and an exacto knife and tell her all the letters are on the vinyl, all you have to do is cut them out and put them on - it's really easy and inexpensive. She'll be begging you to do the job for whatever price in short order.
I had a Taxi driver ask last month if he could just get the "plastic stuff" with the letters already marked so he could cut them himself. Said he was in a hurry, had to go to get the cab inspected the next day and it was being painted while we talked.
for $25(CASH) he got 1 yard of black vinyl, with every letter he needed
posted
mark is she in washington county???? hehehehehehe(iam from there)cheap abounds down thata way....to close to west by god viginia. got a better one...lady with a nail place...wants price on "just letters", and she will tell me which letters and how many...in red cause she has a banner and wants to make her own sign!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
For the record, the first linen van I did that this lady saw went for $600. It was nothing more than Kelly Green Letters with a Gold Ultra Metallic outline (nice conbo BTY).
I'm gonna bid this new Astro Van half of the other job, in Black, ONE side and the rear. Oh, and I will stipulate that the van is to be delivered to me (I'm not doing the 80 mile loop)!
Hey OP, ya wanna trade customers?? I make the dumb letters for the banner and you take this Astro van and the lady that comes with it!
-------------------- Mark Neurohr "Ernest" Paintin' Place 141 Sunnyside Road Kittanning, PA 16201
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6812 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bob, Here is my quote, I'll keep everybody posted on any developements.
Rick, I take care of 2 fleets of School Buses (Over 1400 vehicles). I can honestly say I'm not real proud of the "artwork" involved in these jobs, but hey! It pays the bills!! I must admit thou, we worked hard on making these company names as nice as possible while working within the State Guidelines. But then again, they are School Buses!
Shari,
I am pleased to submit the following quote as per my conversation with Suzanne on your new White Chevy Astro Van:
Suzanne expressed interest in lettering only the Drivers Side Panel and the rear doors.
I propose to letter these panels in 2 mil vinyl, Color: Black, rated at 7 years in the typestyle that you have e-mailed me.
Total cost Labor and Materials: $365.00
Van will need to be delivered to me in Kittanning, I will wash, and prep for Lettering and have ready for pick-up the following day.
If you have any questions, please feel free to call me at 724-664-4041.
Thank you for your business!
Mark Neurohr Paintin' Place RR#5, Box 126E Kittanning, Pa 16201
-------------------- Mark Neurohr "Ernest" Paintin' Place 141 Sunnyside Road Kittanning, PA 16201
posted
Mark, Some customers our there think our labor and time is worth nothing to us. I had a guy stop in and asked me to quote his van and said before I started to do the art and if he like it we would negotiate price...I told him the price was not nagtable and creative services were a certain amount. We went back and forth over price but he wanted to see the art then we would talk price (like my creative time was free). He was in the garage door business so I told him that I might want to buy one of his doors for my home...His eyes lite up. So I said I'll tell you what...put me in a garage door and If I like it we can negotiate price and purchase... He got the jest and we have done over 6000 with him in business sence. I think sometimes customers need an Illustration to see both sides, like your customer how a good visual image is as Important to her customer base as the good dress and apperance she puts on to go see a perspective customer on a sales call. Its not always about money.
Good Luck Rick
-------------------- Rick Whitmire Trick Communications & Signs Box 1124, Hudson, WI Posts: 132 | From: Hudson, WI | Registered: Nov 2002
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Mark, You Might Want to talk her into a Five year vinyl, It's a third the cost and and Orocal has some nice stuff for the Price... I deal with bottom feeders every day... Sure the Price might not be what you are used to getting, but It's a job and I've found that alot Of new Businesses don't really have the resources for start up, and the last Avaliable dollars seem to fall on the small sign Guy's Lap.. Make her feel like a million bucks and eventualy she will loosen the purse straps (when she feels she can do that) and I'll bet she won't forget the favor.. Anyhow you Know what they say, If she likes you she will tell ten people ... She doesn't, double it.. I sure know the frustration. If she becomes a decent business and you did your part, you will see the work again. Then when she has money, You Will see a better return..... Good luck Jim
P.S.
-------------------- James Barrett Mall city signs 2631 corlot st kalamazoo MI 629-342-4225 mallcitysigns@msn.com Posts: 8 | From: Kalamazoo MI | Registered: Jan 2003
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people shouldn't forget that the amount of vinyl needed to do the side & rear of a van (1 color) is probably less then $20, so saving 2/3 allows you to pass about $13 savings on to client. Not worth the loss of quality.
To save what little you will by going to a cheaper vinyl is the worst advice anyone could give. You will save nothing when this vinyl fails, and it will, because you will be redoing it for free. This is not to mention the damage done to your reputation and credibility.
I was at a Letterhead meet in Stratford, ON a few years back when I sat in on a discussion group led by a sign guy out of Windsor. He had the audience of newbies dazzled with his jive song and dance about how he was the best, the biggest, baddest sign dude around, did 4,000 trucks a year, yadda, yadda, yadda... Then he drops the bombshell and says he letters all his trucks in intermediate calendered vinyl because it was a third of the cost, customer will never know the difference, why should you spend the money on more expensive cast vinyl, put the extra money in your pocket, typical crap...
I laughed out loud and started to walk away shaking my head. He asked what my problem was. I asked him what he did when the vinyl failed, the people bitched, and he had to redo it? He says... "So you have to eat 2-3 jobs a year." Then I asked him what he did about all the ones that don't come back to bitch?
I wonder if he ever thought about how many people didn't come back to get it redone just as poorly as the first time it was done. What was his reputation worth? Obviously, not too much. The funniest part was, that the guy actually did some excellent layouts and such and was ruining it by cheaping out. Too bad.
Why is it that some sign people think that cheaper vinyl equates to a job that is 40-60% lower in final cost? Your labor and associated material cost are constant. It is only the cost of the cheap vinyl that changes. Nothing else. You save $20.00 and leave $100 on the table... Go figure.
Anyways, before I get accused of having a short attention span, I think Mark should give her a three tiered... Good, better, best thing. It works for us. He knows what he has to get for the job. I don't. I only know what I would have to get for the job.
If this type of customer bothers anyone, they better get some thicker skin or quit. They are nothing new and will always be around. Personally, I like them... they give us such great fodder to pass along our horror stories at Letterhead meets. The truth is always better than fiction... LOL!
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6465 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Well said Buddy!! This is one of those jobs that I really don't care if I get it or not (don't want to sound stuck up or nothing, I just got the feeling from the get-go that this lady was someone I'd rather have a competitor deal with). I mean, ..... give me a break!! I told her that I letter a TON of vehicles a year and that I look at every vehicle that goes down the road and have NEVER, NEVER.... seen only one side lettered at one time ONE A BRAND NEW ASTRO VAN TOO BOOT!! (Is it that I only can see one side at a time)??
As far using calandered vinyl.... wouldn't waste my time. Like you guys said, same time too make a layout, same time to install, why skimp to save a couple bucks??? I don't even like using calendered for banners!! Cast is the only way to go..........
Anybody want this ladys number, I'll give you the job!!! (unless I get what I gave her for the bid I posted earlier)..!!
-------------------- Mark Neurohr "Ernest" Paintin' Place 141 Sunnyside Road Kittanning, PA 16201
posted
It sounds like the guys that come into our studio...
"Hey mate, we want some signs on our truck..You know..those stickers you guys do....How much for the stickers mate..come on, Just stickers, Dont try and Bulls**t us mate, those Black stickers..
WHAT ! 500 Bucks for Stickers ! get F***** you rip of mongrels !"
Thats life in Cheapo city !
regards
Peter
-------------------- Peter Artistic Design Solutions Adelaide, Australia artisticdesign@bigpond.com Posts: 24 | From: Adelaide ,Australia | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bruce, How many sign shops are in your area? what is your competition level.. I ask this because it sounds like you have the ability to pick and choose your customers by price alone.. Have you ever used Oracal 651? I have used this vinyl on over 51 commercial vans at the owners request and the failure level is (0)....five years running... I do believe telling Mark to tell his client to go **** herself would be the far worse advice then a five year vinyl.... I'm not suggesting that Mark give away his work, just that he may have an option for his cheap customer.. Had I known that a simple suggestion on this web site would create such frustration I might have kept my big yapper shut... Jim AKA worst advice ever
-------------------- James Barrett Mall city signs 2631 corlot st kalamazoo MI 629-342-4225 mallcitysigns@msn.com Posts: 8 | From: Kalamazoo MI | Registered: Jan 2003
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Most vehicle lettering Jobs are on New Leased Vehicles, I'd say 90% of them. Intermediate Calon Vinyl is warranteed for 5 years,, The Average lease is 3 years. I've had more problems with so called High performance, super duper Vinyl than I ever had using the Intermediate Calon. period.
With all respect Bruce I don't have many failures with this Vinyl, I really don't. I don't use that much 2mm Vinyl, and to tell the truth, I've had more failure with that stuff, and I'm usingn the cheaper stuff 90 to 1,
Maybe the Calon is not being used that much in the states, or is it? If you are spending $10,000 a year in vinyl and you can save $6,000 and you don't have a problem and you have repeat customers, and there's new customers coming in the door everyday, it don't take no rocket Scientist....
[ January 12, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Thanks Mark, I'm new at the whole letterville, I will probably find that all the residents have a certian personallity... This is what makes it a community. Mark I can tell you I would like to rip my hair out at this type of client your speaking of.. They thik that our time is free. I cerenterly mean no disrespect to Brue or anyone here at letterville, Thier help in just the few days that I have spent here, could have taken years of discovery... Mark, Or anyone.. In your area what is the basic Price for a one color/Hp vinyl Job? (A Van Three sides) In my area the picing is like a nightmare, the pricing is all over the place.. It seams that everyone Prices buy the situation they are in finacially at the time of the sale.. This makes it tough to be competitive, and probaly why I snaped on Bruce.. (sorry dude..) Jim
-------------------- James Barrett Mall city signs 2631 corlot st kalamazoo MI 629-342-4225 mallcitysigns@msn.com Posts: 8 | From: Kalamazoo MI | Registered: Jan 2003
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I'm in South West Pennsylvania. I can't tell you a price of a (1) color full size van job like you asked because I usually upsell to at least a 2 or 3 layered sign. On these I charge $600.00 period! It takes less than a day, probibly less than $100 in materials. I call that a GOOD DAYS WORK!! Problem is that I don't get nearly enough of these types of jobs due to my demographics. I'm in a really small town, word does get around and I take them whenever I can!
This gets back to the original thought behind this post. This lady wants ONE Friggen side of her BRAND NEW ASTRO VAN lettered as well as the rear door(s). What could she possible be thinking??!! This is the kind of customer I have NO PROBLEM passing by UNLESS I can make money on the deal!
My quote was $360 someting or another and if someone else chooses to take this job for $200, or 300 dollars, THAN THAY CAN HAVE IT AND I'LL GIVE 'EM THIS DEAR LADYS PHONE NUMBER!!
To me... it's a waste of time dealing with this typw of client.
Let's say you take a job like like this for a couple hundred bucks, maybe you need to get better established in your area. What do you think they'll expect the next time they need something lettered?? CHEAP!! What do ya think they tell all of the other busineses they network with??? "This guy is CHEAP"!!
(Same word keeps comming up, doesn't it)!!
Again.... ANYBODY WANT THIS LADYS PHONE NUMBER??
BTW, haven't heard a word from her since I submitted my bid!!
-------------------- Mark Neurohr "Ernest" Paintin' Place 141 Sunnyside Road Kittanning, PA 16201
posted
Mark, We actually had a customer ship us his truck,from Nantucket,to have only the driver`s door lettered.Seems he like to frequent the local bar and didn`t want anyone to know about his liquid lunches. He could park the unlettered side out when he was @ the bar. In over 20 years that is our only single side lettering job. Maybe it`s a Cape Cod thing,we also had a guy take the doors off his truck and bring them to us to letter. Kind of nice,we put them on the smitty sticks and lettered them standing up.Either way we charged full price for the jobs. Rob
-------------------- Bob & Marcia Peach Peach Signs Inc Sandwich, MA rpeach9828@aol.com Posts: 1021 | From: Sandwich, MA | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Maybe it`s a Cape Cod thing,we also had a guy take the doors off his truck and bring them to us to letter.
That reminds me of when I was very young, my dad didn't have anyplace to letter trucks in the winter and the weather was bad. He'd take the doors off and letter them and then prop them up in the living room to dry while he did the oher one.
Some place I even have pictures of the hood and doors of a racecar he lettered and then left in the house to dry. He used to paint Wally Dallenbach's car for him - they went to high school together.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3723 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Mark, you know what's crap? Ive got sign shops doing three side one color jobs for $120 in my area.. you can see why cheaper vinyl is a part of my business.. I think there are 16 sign shops in the BOOK last year and 3 more comming.. mabey we should move to spain.... HA HA Jim
-------------------- James Barrett Mall city signs 2631 corlot st kalamazoo MI 629-342-4225 mallcitysigns@msn.com Posts: 8 | From: Kalamazoo MI | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I don't get it. Customer asks for 1 side and the rear. How about giving the customer what they asked for? Isn't that the way business works? Costs you less, takes you less time....you charge the customer less. If you went in to buy a 27" TV and the salesman told you to go F##%^ yourself or said that he only charges the 36" model price, what do you think you would do?
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
had a guy bring me a tow truck today yea, sunday....his truck got wrecked sat nite and this is a loaner till he gets his fixed(maybe 2 weeks at the most)and to pick up tows...he MUST HAVE THE TRUCK LETTERD AND DOT numbered. now....how many would put HP VINYL ON THIS? and charge full price? for 2 pieces of vinyl 18" x 26"? and this is a repeat customer...(who by the way is buying a couple more new trucks this year) $50 job....(i already had the layout in the computer)for little over 4 feet of calendered vinyl...hes happy iam happy......and ill get his other trucks..
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
You know, some of the "self righteous" know it all posters, really need to get off their high horse and quit slamming other sign people for using calendered,intermediate, 5 year, premium vinyl or whatever else works for them. You are displaying some pretty large cohonies when you assume/lecture that your way is the only way, especially when you have not lived and worked in that particular sign market.
Guess what!?!? In my very low populated market I rely on repeat business! I DO NOT WANT 10 YEAR VINYL ON THE SIDE OF A VEHICLE OR A SIGN!!! Duh! I need and get their busness in five years. Quality five year vinyl works very well for vehicles and signs. Anyone who does not think so, must not know how to install vinyl properly. Anyone who has had to replace good 5 year vinyl within a year or two has not installed properly.
You know what? It does not equate to a job 40-60% cheaper! Where do you get that idea??? It has nothing to do with the cost of the vinyl. You charge for the service, period. What you are doing, is educating your consumer as to a reasonable life for a sign. That is the way our capitalist system works. It is a fact with every product you buy. There is a built in shelf life, at the end of which time, the consumer is expected to replace the item. That is how the free market system is set up to work. No one makes a product to last 10 years! Why should sign people be expected to? Not in original condition, anyway. For cripes sake, use a little discretion when you decide to shoot from the lip and trample on someone elses post.
To Steve: If I thought this lady was good looking, you think I'd give this job away?? Nice try!
Robert: I like your 1 door story! If this 'ol geezer I'm dealing with had a decent excuse like your customer did (liquid lunch), I'd have no problem with that! Hey BYW, what's "Smitty Sticks"??
James: If my competitors were like yours doing a 3 side, 1 color job for a buck and a quarter, why I wouldn't sweat it! Let those Knuckleheads take all those inexpensive jobs. I'd concentrate on good design, quality materials and upsell the job. I guess this also ties into my response to "RaveOn".
RaveOn: I really don't understand your theory on using calendered material to get repeat business in 5 years? (BTW, this is only my opinion and doesn't justify myself as an expert on the subject nor the editors of this Board). Here's my example for discussion using this ASTRO Van:
Assuming that I got this job, it would more than likey cost the customer $600 for a multi colored striping and Lettering job using 2-mil Cast material. Material cost=$100, Total time 8 hours, profit $500. I shouldn't ever have to letter this van again for at least in 8 years and by that time it has enough miles and depreciated to it's max that the owner is likely to replace it with a new one.
Using calendered materials will take the same amount of time, same amount of material (at a lower cost). Here's how I would look at this one: Total cost to the customer: $475 Material costs= $45 total profit = $430. I JUST LOST $70 my not using premium materials!! Go Figure! Then in 5 years, van is still in decent shape but the lettering has become faded and falling off (make me look bad) and I now I gotta REMOVE this stuff a job that NOBODY lies to do and reletter the van on a JOB I ALREADY KNOW THAT I DIDN'T MAKE REALLY GOOD MONEY AT!! Phew...
Bruce: didn't forget you BTW, check one of my earlier posts and you'll see that I did in fact give this lady a bid for what she had asked. It's not that I'm unwilling to do this job, I plan on making a profit! Isn't that one of the reasons why we're in business!
Steve: I will guarentee you that she's a Dog and far from good looking or else this post never would've began in the first place! If she was good looking, why I might've done the job for nothing more than the entertainment value in itself!
[ January 13, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Mark Neurohr ]
-------------------- Mark Neurohr "Ernest" Paintin' Place 141 Sunnyside Road Kittanning, PA 16201
posted
Hey Mark, do I have a disease? Lol Man you better watch what you say, there are a lot of competant female sign people reading this board, If I were you I'd watch my back, you might have a straight edge thrown at you.
[ January 13, 2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
The more I think about it, I think the kicker here is the 80 mile round trip. You damn near would have to charge the same price as the full job to make it worth your trouble. If she brought it to you you'd probably sing a slightly different toon.
For straight text, one side/rear....$365 sounds a bit high to me......if she brings you the truck. If you make the drive your probably about right.
In our market, basic 1 or 2 color jobs on vans that size usually go for around $300-$400 complete, installed on our premises.
We also use 3 mile on certain vehicle jobs. Probably a good deal of them. Can't say we have ever had a customer come back and say the letters should have lasted longer. I think alot of customers use some sort of common sense and realize that it is really just a sticker. Not all of em, but a majority of ours.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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