posted
Yesterday I had a first-hand look at Murphy's Law in action, and I'm voting to change that to Gerber's Law, based on the experience.
Some of you have seen the truck door Edge print Bob Rochon posted on the Portfolio page a few days ago. Bob has several more vehicles to letter, including an 18' trailer. Yesterday(Saturday) he called - did I have any white vinyl and Edge foils he could use? Today? He had the trailer in a rented garage for the weekend to apply the prints, and was having material troubles.
First, a fifty-yard roll of his base vinyl - Gerber 220 hi-performance white - had the tracking holes punched improperly, which ruined over thirty feet of Edge print. The ruined print had used up his foils, so now he had a job stuck half-done, with no vinyl or foils to finish it til Tuesday.
Bob is a good friend, and has helped me through any number of I'm-gonna-put-a-hammer-through-this-@$#$#%-computer crises, so I didn't hesitate to load up my CYMK foils and a roll of white vinyl and drive an hour and a half to Worcester (aka Siberia)on a Saturday afternoon. He was finishing up one side of the trailer, and we soon went back to his shop to print the image for the other side. Bob loaded vinyl and foils, the Edge began to grind out prints - with a long, wavering streak through the center of the print. We stopped and looked at the materials, soon found the matching streak on a brand-new, unopened roll of Gerber Edge foil.
Try to get a handle on the frustration level here, folks. Bob now cannot finish this job by Monday as promised. This means re-scheduling a busy customer, renting the garage for another weekend, another weekend he won't spend with his family - because the materials sold to him, at premium prices, were flawed and useless. And Bob doesn't fart around with bargain-basement vinyl and foils; these were all GERBER materials.
So my question, having been witness to this clusterf*ck, is, what's a guarantee worth? I'm sure Gerber or Garston (our distributor) will offer to replace the mis-punched vinyl and the streaky foil. But are they going to give Bob anything for the time and aggravation wasted on trying to use this schitt? Are they going to pay for the garage rent, or the overtime pay, or give him back a lost weekend? Where is the accountability here? I'm a rookie at Edge work, but watching this is making me seriously re-think my approach to this technology. What the hell good is a $15000 machine, when the materials it uses - materials SPECIFICALLY RECOMMENDED BY THE MANUFACTURER - have sloppy or nonexistent quality controls? What's Gerber's resonsibility - a $75 foil and a roll of vinyl? You gotta be kidding!
My comment to Bob, before I left, was something on the lines of, if he'd known this job would take two men a week and a half and cost this much money, we could have PAINTED the sonuvabitch.
One thing I do know - I can only write about it objectively because I was just a witness. Bob is a far more patient and forgiving man; if this had been my job, you wouldn't want to be anyone at Gerber on Monday morning.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I know that you didn't write this post to shine a light on yourself but I couldn't help but think what a good friend you must be to drive all that way and try to help.
It sounds like you embodied the true Letterhead spirit there Cam.
What is it they say? FRIENDS WILL HELP YOU MOVE, REAL FRIENDS WILL HELP YOU MOVE BODIES.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3723 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hey Cam, way to go! (What's wrong with Siberia?) I have had the pleasure of taking a Maul to one of my Older Computer Monitors...what a blast! Yeah yeah, I know, I'm sitting here typing on a computer, SO WHAT! I only use one finger to type and I put on 3 pair o'gloves so I don't get a "Virus", by the way, I dropped Peanut Butter between my "V" and "B" key about 3 months ago and it is looking like gangreen now! HA HA take that GATEWAY!
Drive over here next winter for the "Winter Muster" Cam, bring Bob with ya! (Feb 2004)
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
posted
That sucks! I had a sort of a nightmare job this week also, but nothin that serious. I sympatize with you guys.
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I too have personally witnessed what appears to be a declining level of quality with Gerber branded vinyl. The last two 50 yard rolls of 220 gold metallic I received had hole punch problems. First roll had holes that weren't properly spaced on the last 20 feet of the roll. Second roll had tears between the holes to the outer edge of the vinyl on the FIRST 20 feet of the roll. How could QC miss this? With Gerber recently lowering the list price of a lot of there vinyls can we expect the quality to get even worse?
[ January 05, 2003, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Brian Snyder ]
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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What you're about to find out is that the REALLY frustrating part is yet to unfold. If you intend to pursue a claim for the materials replacement, you will be asked to send those defective materials back to Gerber so that THEY can make a determination as to the validity of your claim. You may also be asked to supply copies of the invoices to show when and where you purchased them. When you've jumped through and over all the necessary hoops and hurdles that they will require, you'll probably find that you've wasted more in time than the defective materials were actually worth. That's the value of a warranty, in today's world!
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2689 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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well we will see come tomorrow morning, I'll keep you posted.
If quality control doesn't get their act together Gerber materials division will be feeling the same pain as the software and equipment division.
Gerber name used to mean quality, and this is not my first experienece with holes not alligned into the roll. I mean come on it's their pattern for their machines, you'd think they could get it right I have had it!! This time it has cost me a lot of money agrivation and time, not to mention the flaw it puts in the costomer service from my end.
sorry my mood is showing
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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all I can add is this....."Get a brush and paint and forget about edge prints"!!!
But then again...that is the "Dinosaur" part of me speaking!!!
Sorry...I just couldn't help myself...Very often I watch another sign shop struggle with the same thing...you don't want to be anywhere near that place when they are having trouble printing...so I smile and as I am leaving I always comment: "Get a brush Paco!" Doesn't seem to help tho...cause next week they are all stressed out over that damn machine again! Oh-well
[ January 05, 2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Jackson Smart ]
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1002 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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Jackson, this is not going to be personal at all, but I have sort of wanted to say this for a while now, and I'm using your comment as a convenient opportunity:
I know I'm stepping into a big can of something here that either smells or bites. And I don't want to ruin this post.
I believe in the brush and paint and the joy and beauty and happiness of it all. I also believe that today, if you want to make a real living from sign making, and have no other income or support, it is simply too tough to be exclusive with paint and a brush. I see lip service to it, but have no personal observation of anyone pulling it off, and seen some die hards who refused to update and branch out go under.
Unless customers are in the know, and educated to ask for it,or have sentimental attachment to the look and feel of it, they just don't want to pay for what has become a luxury.
I bought my first 4B on my birthday in 1985. I shakily asked the Tubelite rep who came and stayed a half a day to train me: How am I going to overcome the resistance of my customers to this new look, and the stuck on vinyl. Now that is what has become the standard. Unless you are the last of the hand carved Ukulele builders in the mountains and people are willing to wait for their's til you get to it, every industry has to progress with the inventions of the time. ( my dentist of over 30 years is still capable of pulling out the old watercooled slow drill, and give me laugh gas, but it's cheaper and faster and less painful to just use the modern methods and equipment for relatively routine dental work)
It is now almost 20 years into the revolution in signmaking techniques. I love that I can (plus or minus) use everything available to us to produce signs today, and therefore make a living in a reasonable amount of time spent. That's not how it used to be, as a single mother it took lettering small letters on 18x24's or on 4x8's (before Omega board), or screening hand cut stencils in a dirt basement til midnight- 7 in 7- to see my kid through school(yes it was private) and pay the bills. I don't have to do that any more. I can make the money I need with regular hours and my computers and plotters and have the luxury to do brush work where I WANT to use it. This does not mean I don't have horrible frustrations with the equipment, I am right brained to the max and do not take to learning it easily. Yesterday I broke down and actually cried over my keyboard after trying for three hours to make something work. But the technology is coming out of infancy and things are getting easier and easier finally. Long way from DOS and Gerber scanner 1 to XP and the Edge.
Forgive me everyone. ===============================================
At any rate, back to the subject. they said they know that with the Gerber created problems they could not produce the job in the timely manner that was promised. They said they were now so behind on this and other things as a result, that in hindsight the job could have been done with a brush.
The issue is Gerber's lack of quality control, on something they in essence owe to us who have, since the advent of their 4B put our trust and belief in that their highest priced supplies would be at our side to support us in return.
What happened here is outrageous. I get a knot in my gut just thinking about the waste and frustration and anger. If WE cost someone time and money, we have to eat it. Somehow. Or lose their business. I think Gerber should be notified not only to step up to the plate and make this up - but be notified that all of us will back it up by not putting up with shabby unreliable materials. We should notify them that we are all examining our supplies and will notify them and expect the best which they claim they sell. There can be a very positive outcome to this for us, if Gerber assumes responsibility and tightens quality control - and to Gerber. Let us not forget that we are why they are here. We are profit, they are overhead.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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However...please try to understand the mindset of us "Old Brushheads". I started out in this business learning how to do it the old way...using a brush and paint. I watched the industry start to change...however..I was not willing to face the future. I have always done it my way...so I am comfortable doing it with brush and paint.
Now..since everthing seems to be going electronic...We made a conscience choice to stay with what we knew. So, since my intent was to not slug it out with all the "vinyl" shops that were springing up all over...I realized that people were more than willing to spend the extra $ to get a quality custom sign. I also realized that it was not just about the money...but more about how the quality and service and design and all the little things that went into producing a custom sign for the client. It seems that we made the right choice...plus the fact that we live in a very unique place that supports custom work.
But...I often find when reading about all the grief dealing with electronics and the vinyl industry....I am thankful to be where I am. I realize also that I am not standing in thier shoes at the moment...so I can't get a real feel for thier frustation...so I can only come from my own experiences. I also realize that not "everyone" can do what I do..so they must do what they do. It is all good in the greater part of this game we play.
So...if some of you get upset by some of the seemingly negative comments on this board about paint verses vinyl...please understand that those comments are not intended to make someone look small or insignificant...but rather just someones understanding of the situation...and then oftentimes we "speak before we think"! I know I do.
However...I have stepped up to the future. I do have a computer and a printer. It has increased our productivity by 1000%. I can say I don't know how I did it before computers.
So myra...your points were well taken. You said that you have no personal observation of someone "pulling it off" Well I can assure you the we are pulling it off,,and rather nicely I might add. We are making a very good living doing it with a brush and paint...however.. we use all sorts of things to accomplish our goal (occasionally some vinyl) so it all goes into the mix. There is not just one thing that is appropriate to making signs...but then, I am just an old "Die Hard" and my success does not depend upon jumping totally into the future..I can still do it my way.
Love and Light
Jackson
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1002 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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After Gerber fronts the new materials and the dole for the rented bay, and apologizes to the owner of the truck, I think they should send Rob, Cam and the truck owner for a weekend of fishing in the Bahamas.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6811 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Jackson: You understood me, and I understand you. I am not near the craftsperson you are - I’m pretty good, but not that good. I have to be crafty otherwise. I want to only correct one misconception. I was talking about having experienced and watched sign makers who absolutely will not touch anything other than a brush on principle, and don‘t know how to turn on a computer, and can no longer make a living making signs. They scoff at computer aided anything. Then they fault anybody and everything except themselves. You are not in that category, and I hope I never implied that.
You are balancing the weight of how to execute your work in favor of what you do best and have built a customer support system, and have exceptional talent and skills in the mix.
We are essentially in synch in our perceptions. Thanks for replying.
And Rick: You got it just right. It won’t happen, but just like Peace on Earth, wouldn’t it be nice.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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hahahahah i can just see that happenin....i was paintin when gerber was rippin people for $100 fonts for the 4b. when i took the plunge to go computer/cutter, the one thing i did was make sure i stayed away from GERBER!!! i went with a roland cutter and cut from corel draw in 93 when it was version 3, and had all the fonts i wanted!!! i cut from ARTS& LETTERS EXPRESS also....and was using INSTANT ARTIST 1.0(the original PRINT ARTIST for clip art). the only thing ive ever had that was GERBER was their mask,and its the best of all. iam an old painter....ive seen the move toward "the edge" prints...their ok for what they do...but still wont stick to brick wall or stacco, so paint still has its place...and always will. i got a an ALP MD-1300 printer, good for stickers and 16"x 22" prints(it will panel in 2 8x11's) uses the same ribbons as the rolands. all i need..... for stickers and such. since ive been here in pcola ive had 2-3 times ive sent customers to someone with an edge....so not worth me havein the expense . after seenin how CAS-MATE/INSPIRE & the original PRO-CUT, ans few other companies did to their loyal patrons.....i never want to get THAT dependant on any big company for my ability to feed myself.
[ January 05, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I appreciate everyone's comments here, especially yours, Myra. I've defended Gerber products for years against the folks who say they are overpriced, and I dammwell know Bob has even more. We buy this stuff to AVOID this kind of nonsense - this wasn't a rant because the pie-in-the-sky promises of some Brand X product failed.
When I pay premium prices for premium products, I have the right to demand those products meet certain quality standards. If Gerber thinks the only way to stay in business is to cut corners and lower prices to maintain some mythical ideal "market share", they are another example of the illness of the entire industry. Gee, how many sign shops go down the tubes every year thinking the have to lower their prices and forego quality to "compete"?
The response Bob gets from Gerber is going to have a lot to do with who I do business with in the future.
Work like this deserves the best materials money can buy. Bob thought he had.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1002 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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I saw the post header and thought you were talking about the Giants game... it was like watchin a horror movie--- you know how its going to end but you cant quite take your eyes off of it...
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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I guess some of you have seen the Jobs I do on the edge as well, the edge is a great Machine, no doubt about it... but the aftermarket foils do a great job, all of my work over the last 2 years has been done using aftermarket materials, I do clear coat them with Frog Juice. I have had more trouble using 3m materials, than I ever had using the aftermarket intermediate Calon products, yes folks I use intermediate Calon on all those nice prints, and usually don't have an issue. I'm not saying I "Never" had an issue I did at the beginning, but my supplier came through immediately, and I did'nt have to do a song and dance routine like I have to do with gerber. Like you said they want samples, invoices, dates, written explanations, I wonder how many people actually want to do this. Also it's not the suppliers fault, In Canada ND Grahics have always been great with information and support. But unfortunately they have their Hands tied.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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A couple of co-incidental QC errors don't indicate an alarming trend of any kind and I don't think it fair to assume that Gerber aren't interested in (or are anything other than commited to) your satisfaction.
On the chance that Gerber happen to read this thread, this is probably the first that they hear of your dissatisfaction. Unless you initiate some sort of communication (whether directly or via your Gerber dealer) I'm not sure that Gerber deserve the public flogging they've been administered...and I can't see how you could possibly (or reasonably) expect more than by-the-book materials replacement without discussing the matter with them.
Ken:
In ALL but the most exceptional circumstances, ND GRAPHICS replaces apparently suspect materials immediately and credits your account upon return / inspection of the "defective" product. We then seek compensation from the manufacturer (Gerber or otherwise).
Your experience sounds remarkably different than I would expect...or was this a warranty claim for graphics that failed in the field? If you wouldn't mind, please drop me a note concerning the particulars of your experience...Perhaps we can set things straight for you.
Neil:
Thanks for your compliments re. ND GRAPHICS being great about providing you with information and support.
[ January 06, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:On the chance that Gerber happen to read this thread, this is probably the first that they hear of your dissatisfaction. Unless you initiate some sort of communication (whether directly or via your Gerber dealer) I'm not sure that Gerber deserve the public flogging they've been administered...and I can't see how you could possibly (or reasonably) expect more than by-the-book materials replacement without discussing the matter with them.
I actually talked to Gerber Customer Service today with great positive feedback so far, I encouraged them to read this post as well as others and respond to them much like Jon does. Jon this was not the first time with such problems.
As this is still in transition, I can offer no other info except a positive plug for Hyatts all things creative.
I called my original supplier today which will remain nameless, and asked what they can do about the material, they said the only thing they could do is replace these materials at a cost to me, and when Gerber gives them credit for the defective materials, they can give me credit. HEY I'm sorry here but I feel why do I have to shell out another 500 bucks, I already did that and what I bought failed to perform as advertised. Now keep in mind I have been strictly loyal to these guys since 1993.
So I called Hyatts because they have a wharehouse in Mass, I figured if I had to buy them again, I'd drive and get them today to finish the job ASAP. My other supplier would have to deliver and would be at least a day. In conversation, I explained this whole senerio and Hyatts went out of their way to assume my problem and take my damaged goods, even though I did not buy them from them, and give me credit. They said they would deal with Gerber behind the scenes.
WOW!!! now THATS customer service!!!!!!!
So guess who gets my business now!!! to top it all off they even offered to pick them up by call tag from UPS. And after a recent phone call found out I already have the credit on account. MAN, talk about going out of your way & then some.
You gotta deal with Hyatts, outstanding customer service.
[ January 06, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am sure that Peter Hyatt is smiling right now. Hyatt's started here in Western New York and has been a fixture in the art supplies gig forever.
Their service is excellent. The people are nice. Your report on them does not surprise me.
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6465 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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What a difference a little customer service makes! I also had a conversation with a Hyatt representative, and I liked their attitude. So here's how to keep good customer service coming - support the suppliers that make you happy by performing as expected.
Sometimes this is a tough call. I have personal relationships with the owner and the outside sales rep of one major supplier - yet this company's order-takers are notorious for making errors (wrong color, wrong this or that) and has repeatedly left me hanging on customer service issues. So, despite these relationships, I end up going to a competitor for the majority of my supplies, simply because I get better service. Price is not, and never has been, the issue.
How do you buy supplies? I constantly get offers by fax or mail; great deals on vinyl, or banner materials or magnetic, yada yada. All go in the trash - I'm far less interested in saving $1.50 on a roll of vinyl, than in giving my business to a company that goes out of its way to keep me happy. But somebody must be buying this stuff, cause the junk mail keeps coming.
How do you buy supplies? If your major concern is saving a nickel here and there and shopping all over the map, you don't have much right to complain if the service is negligible.
This is why I wrote the post to begin with. I saw a friend and loyal Gerber customer - Bob has taken plenty of heat, right here in this forum, for defending the use of Gerber-branded materials - get slammed by a series of lapses in quality control. Coincidental? Absolutely. A public flogging of Gerber? No - the jury is out on that, waiting to see how Gerber responds. My first post was a factual account of the entire domino-effect of disaster that sprang out of two bad rolls of material, including the time wasted, the scheduling headache, and the dissatisfied customer (remember him?) whose trailer was not ready Monday morning. I see this, as much as anything, as an example of how powerful this forum can be. Putting it up here makes much more than just a squawk over two rolls of vinyl and foil. It's to show a manufacturer the real-world consequences of a failure of quality-control, and to exert some public pressure on getting it made right.
We all have to work in the real world, where our mistakes have consequences. Its about time the manufactures and suppliers start living in that world too.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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That is just how Hyatt's is, with Peter leading the group! A few years ago Peter personally stepped in when the others were busy and took care of me. He did not act rushed, and not impatient, even though I was one of the little customers, but he made me feel very special in a very sincere way. Mind you, I was not calling to buy an edge, as it was only an order for the copper high performance vinyl for the hotel vans. Go Hyatts, all things creative! Wonderful experiences with them, very professional.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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Bob & Cam great post.... feels like I'm swimming in the old pond again... as a past "volume" buyer of GERBER only products from HYATTS... first and formost make J.D. Iles your buddy.. a true GERBER genius and the reason Hyatt is in Mass. However that said I never got satisfaction on GERBER screw-ups at times I had $3000 to $4000 a month purchases from them. Try and get one roll free for their mistakes?... never happened back then good luck!
I found that doing large prints with the edge fruitless and ALWAYS! set me back time and money... I learned the value of finding a damn good Scotchlite printer and sub the job to them. I'd be more than happy to share my old buddies name in N.Y. as well as my resume for fleet graphics F***-ups and how to find free weekends and profits again!
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
Cam/Bob; I have had the same problem in the past year or so with not just Gerber, but also after market suppliers of foils.Could it be that everyone out there is getting their products manufactured from one mufacturer, and is their industry's evauation of success measured by percentages of comebacks, much like Firestone tires. On a different note I was out cruising your area recently and was passed by a red Pontiac 400 convertable with a cute bumper sticker "CASINO'S ARE SUPPORTED BY LOSERS". Guy driving it looked like an Indian.
Regards, Kurtzman
-------------------- John Kurtzman J.G. Kurtzman Sign Shop 97 Taylor Ave. Norwalk, Ct. 06854
----------------------------------- Creative communication since 1959 Posts: 213 | From: So. Norwalk, Ct. USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I'm guessing that Gerber is, or ought to be, ISO 9000 certified manufacturer. ISO is the International Organization for Standardizaion. That's a quality control certification that the US Govt (among others) requires for large purchases. ISO certification usually requires a 99.9% performance guaranty, AND a written plan about how the 0.1% of mistakes will be dealt with AND corrections made so those mistakes don't happen in the future.
All that is a long way around to say that if Gerber is making repeated errors, then you should look for the ISO certified company that IS making the foils -- and use them.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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I went to Gerber's website yesterday and sent them a question about ISO certification. they replied today that they are not an ISO certifiied manufacturer.
so, maybe one of the aftermarket suppliers is.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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ISO is an interesting topic unto itself. Sometimes I think the some evil marketer MUST have dreamed the whole thing up.
Obtaining ISO certification can be VERY expensive and suck up alot of resources...all with no guarrantee for return on your investment. Sure, you get to say that you're ISO certified (and that does mean something to your customers) but ISO in and of itself doesn't generate revenue. You may well have to raise your prices as a result (you wanna see people squawk and business walk?!)
With experienced management, it is possible to have equally good quality assurance and quality control procedures in place without going to the trouble and expense of obtaining ISO certification. I'm not in a position to tell you Gerber's performance is in the 99.9% range - but I can tell you that the percentage of all of the Gerber products we sell that are reported/returned as "defective" is EXTREMELY small...maybe 1%. I think it would be very hard for Gerber to justify the investment in ISO certification.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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You know for years I always wondered what the heck that meant when you passed a company and you saw a banner saying ISO 9000 Certified, SO I guess it never did me any good. Before today Gerber would have said they are ISO Certified and that would not have meant diddly to me. What does mean a lot and goes a long way is how they deal with and handle what problems they do have.
Like I've said before, Over 10 years of loyal Gerber product usage and I've never had squat for problems, untill recently, and recently I mean in the past year or 2. When just cutting vinyl a lot of flaws can be unnoticed, but when digitally printing, the smallest flaw in a 4'x8' print can be devastating!!!
Gerber is handling this issue with me very well and very attentive, At this point, because it is not resolved yet.
Cam & I also discussed the added cost for such certification showing up in the end product yesterday, And really the certification doesn't mean as much to me as the " proof in the pudding" so to speak.
To be continued....
[ January 09, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have had it!! This time it has cost me a lot of money agrivation and time, not to mention the flaw it puts in the costomer service from my end.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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