posted
I for the past several weeks, have been on a mission to get a supplier within 2 hours of me to supply Dibond. 2,3 and4 mil......Everyone wants to handle Alumalite and tells me that everyone prefers it. I don't catch the drift here. I suppose that if you were to use the Alumalite in full sheet, totally framed with no cutting, that you might consider it to stand up to higher side pressures as the say they will warrant anything up to 110 mph. ON THE OTHER HAND...The products are almost equal in cost, The Dibond is very rigid and has a much better dent resisting face. You can handle the edges much rougher without damage. You can use a saw or drill on it without ripping the edge. You can file it on either side without ripping the face from the plastic innercore. Once you break the fragile surface away from the innercore you have a real problem. you don't have to seal the edges of Diblond. The face is much flater that alumalite. It doesn't have and impression on the face where the paper sticker imprints the aluminum leaving a dent like alumalite where it has been stacked. Why in the world would anyone prefer alumalite over Dibond. I am not sure that you can get the Dibond in the cutesy colors. Maybe thats it. I'm probably going to upset some suppliers here, but maybe it will be worth the time for them to evaluate what I am rattling about. Somebody stop me....... Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
They're just telling you that so they don't have to bring in a shipment. We stock both and Dibond is preferred 10 to 1 by our customers.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Dibond is imported, and Alumalite is from Laminators, the same people that make Omega signboard & Lustreboard. So some suppliers that carry Alumalite have been selling Laminators products for years and are reluctant (or slow) to moving towards the other manufacturer. Dibond is by far the superior product.
posted
Bringing this back to the top, because I have a method to my madness. If I get enough support on this subject, I plan to take this post and give it to my suppliers. If I cannot get them to handle it, I'm going to try to become a supplier. If I cannot, I may very well become a manufacturer. After all, its just aluminum laminated to plastic.
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I like Dibond. I use it. I also enjoy Grain Belt. Grain Belt is not made with Dibond.
------------------ Mike Meyer SignPainter 575 1st Street Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956 (507) 843-5951 EMail-mikemeyer@sleepyeyetel.net http://www.markfair.com/mikemeyer check out this great web site..www.grainbelt.com
Posts: 3617 | From: Mazeppa, Mn usa | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
When your right your right Bronz...there is (in my opinion) no comparison in products.The Dibond is far superior...I've used them both and have no intensions of using the Alumalite again. One other thing you didn't mention is if water gets inside the alumalite and freezes you end up with another texture you've not seen before.Well, It's just my opinion...achieved by trial and error.
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
posted
Dibond is great! It is far superior to its lighter weight laminated cousins. A product that is similar is Alucabond, which we use a lot of. A very cool trick that can be done with either is to router a v-groove in the back, cutting through one aluminum layer and the plastic core, then bend. It makes very slick-looking bends.
You can also bend a Grain Belt. No v-groove necessary.
posted
I use Dibond when my supplier has it in stock, other wise I have to use the "other" stuff. I guess they both have their uses but Dibond does finish out nicer.
------------------ Greg Gulliford aka MetroDude Metro Signs and Banners 1403 N. Greene St. #1 Spokane, WA 99202 509-536-9452
posted
For those of you which have never seen the stuff: It can be routed or jigsaw cut into a monogram shape with fairly small and long protrusions, and after filing or sanding, and painting look just like a waterjet cut piece of solid aluminum. You can mount it off surface for a nice 3-D effect. Thanks for the comments. I would welcome a rebutal on this subject, as it appears everyone feels about the same way I do. I talked to a larger supplier yesterday and they said they would stay with alumalite because of the prepainted colors. He also agreed the Dibond was a superior product, but that his average customer was too lazy to paint the Dibond. Do any of you have a problem finding suppliers in your area like I do? Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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I'm with you on this one as Dibond is a far better product in most ways then one. The things you mentioned about capping, water biuld up, etc.. is a concern. But here the cost factor is different on the 2 products.. Alumilite is around 25% cheaper but then you still have to buy the capping strips at $7.00 per length..X 3 not makes both products around the same price... Dibond has a thicker gauge Aluminum and as you said does not give area for denting as the there is no hollow core to it... Tell your suppliers that there is some good advantage to stocking a few sheets of it and annouce that they carry it. I bet that they will stock more in the future
Good Luck. Raven/2001
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I live in Michigan but do have suppliers out of state. Who are some of the suppliers that might ship Dibond. I am very interesting in trying it.
------------------ Laura Butler Vision Graphics and Sign 560 Oak St. Lapeer, Mi 48446 810-664-3812 visiongraphics@tir.com
Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Hello everyone. My name is Garrett and I am a Customer Service consultant for Laminators Incorporated. We manufacture Alumalite, Econolite, D-lite, Omega Signboard, Lusterboard, etc. I've just been turned on to this site by one of your frequent users and I've read quite a lot of your posts. I'm very happy to see that a great number of you are pleased with our products. I also must admit I am shocked to hear many express more of a preference for Dibond over Alumalite. I greatly respect all of your opinions and recognize you are all professionals in the sign industry. I would like to hear all your comments (and don't feel like you have to hold back). We always want to improve our product offerings and quality. Some of your comments are eye opening. Perhaps I can address some of your statements. Dibond has been available to the industry almost ten years. It is far from a new product -- but just never caught on. Alumalite is only about five years old to the industry. Alumalite is much lighter and over twice as strong as Dibond. Alumalite comes in more sizes, colors, and is the only panel offered in a cost saving single face version. It is for these reasons that most of the distributors choose to offer Alumalite. I definitely agree with you that Alumalite is susceptible to edge damage and denting since it has a lot of air inside the core of the panel. But both panels will dent with the exact same amount of force. There is a difference in the denting however. When you dent the Alumalite, you will achieve a deep but narrow dent. When you dent the Dibond, you will achieve a shallow but wider dent that will transfer to the other side of the panel. This will not happen with Alumalite, Econolite, etc. In the end, however, you have both Alumalite and Dibond denting -- in most cases equally objectionable. When you are cutting Alumalite, Econolite, and D-lite you must be sure to use a Carbide-tipped blade with 30 or more teeth on the blade. This will prevent the edge ripping or the aluminum pulling away from the core (if this still happens to you, let me know and perhaps there is something else we can offer to correct it). You do not have to seal the edges of Alumalite, Econolite, or D-lite. You may do so for aesthetic purposes but the panel is warranted for 5 years WITHOUT edge cap. Monte and Pierre made reference to water freezing inside the panel. How did this happen? Did you seal the bottom of the panel but not the top? I have taken your comments to our head engineer. We have performed extensive testing on our panels but have never had any delaminations from such an occurence (even with the bottom of the panel sealed and the top of the panel open to water during a brutal freeze/thaw cycle test: 72oF down to -15oF after filling the flutes with water). The most we have ever experienced was a slight wave to the panel which was even very difficult for our engineers to notice (I would be happy to show any and all of you the results of our testing if you just email me your fax number). If you have had an instance where delamination has occurred, please contact us so we can replace the defective material and determine the cause so we can prevent it in the future. We are in the industry to service you and if we do not hear about these instances we can not help you. One statement which was very surprising was that our product stickers were leaving an indentation on the panel. We were not aware that was happening. We have never received a call about it. I had our Sample Department bring us a sample of our product to look at that and, sure enough, there was a slight indentation there. I have since taken the sample to our Quality Control Department. We are adressing the situation soon by adding equipment to print our serial numbers on the masking instead of using labels. Our sincere thanks for making us aware of the issue. I can assure you that it will be rectified soon. I hope all of you will take this opportunity to express your likes, dislikes, concerns, or comments so that I can help all of you understand our product and use it to benefit your company. Also, we have a great "How-To" section on our website (www.signboards.com) which I hope you will visit. We are interested in offering a new version of our website that is application based. Our idea is to offer you specific applications that you can select. Then the site will customize the best "how-to" instructions for fabrication and installation of that application and create a bill of materials you can use for quotation at your distributor. Does this sound like something you might use? If so, would you email me and let me know your thoughts? If not, what would you find useful? Thank you.
Cordially, Garrett
------------------ Laminators Incorporated "The Omega Panel People"
Posts: 3 | From: Hatfield, PA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Garrett, Thanks for your reply to this post. I had credited your product with probably standing up to better sidewind pressures. This, of course having to do with the trussing action that the corragation would provide. I would very much argue the dent resistance as I just went out and did a test. Each of 5 different speeds of hammer blows both in the air and with a solid backing, resulted in 4 to 5 times more damage to the Alumalite. Granted; if I were to have used a sledge, both panels might have appeared the same. I have not myself had the freeze probs, but I do seal my edges, at least on the top and sides. Take a piece of Dibond and do some drilling, jigsawing, routing, filing and the like on it and see how nice the edges are preserved unlike alumalite........Now, it is certainly not my intention to bash your products, except for to make some changes for both you folks and the consumer. I am an inventor, with 5 patents in hand. I know that their is nothing patentable about the dibond process or at least the solid meat sandwich approach that they use in lamination. I would think that after doing the tests for yourself that I speak of here, you might consider at least adding a line of solid sandwich aluminum, for which you already possess the equipment..... I would very much like to be standing on your side of this, believe me. This appears as an opportunity to simply add a couple of items (2 and 4 mil) Thanks for commenting on my post, and after reading through them again if you will, please count the contradictions to my opinion. Next time we post, I hope that it is on a more positive note. Thanks again for your concern.....Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Garrett, I have spoken with people from your company in the past about different problems with some of your products and they have been very helpful. I will also have to disagree about the susceptibility to denting between Dibond and Alumalite. Alumalite dents much more easily, and the edge integrity is also not comparable. I do, however, like the product and especially the fact that it comes in a good assortment of colors. I have never experienced the freezing problems that some of the others have mentioned, and I rarely seal the edges unless for cosmetic purposes. The fact that you are now making the 4'x8' sheets with the flutes running parallel to the 8' side is a very good improvement since the material is so much more likely to bend (and crease) along the flute. I think it would be very good if your company would produce a product similar to the Dibond as an alternative, and see which one the customers prefer first hand.
posted
Dear Bronzeo and Brad, Thank you for responding! I will agree with you on a back-supported panel test that Alumalite will dent more in the face because it does not have a solid core, however on an unsupported test Dibond will dent more severely and the dent will even transfer through to the other side. We compared the impact resistance of both panels through a test called the "Gardner Impact" test and found Dibond to dent more substantially when unsupported. I have the results of the test which I can fax as well. Each panel has a scenario in which it will dent more than the other. In the end, both panels dent easily and both are objectionable.
Cordially, Garrett
------------------ Laminators Incorporated "The Omega Panel People"
Posts: 3 | From: Hatfield, PA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I just went and did 2 more tests on the two materials. Dibond still resisted denting much better than Alumalite, in the unsupported tests. What percent of the time would one think that either product would be used or stored in an unsupported manner. My hammer demolishes alumalite with the same blow that hardly dents the Dibond. Again on certain tests, like shooting a 357 magnum at it, you are going to achieve similar results. Every time I move Alumalite I have to worry about how fragile it is in every respect. Dibond not so. My other complaint that I believe I forgot to mention, is if an edge protector is expected to be used, it creates a caddy look to the finished products. I would think that if the company manufacturing Alumalite would put its efforts into improving towards a better product, it would have a much better future. I wouldn't think that they could be considered "copycats", as its simple lamination techniques. I can't imagine that these facts are arguable, and I thank you for your comments, but your time may be better used trying to get a "new sammich" . Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
[This message has been edited by bronzeo (edited February 02, 2001).]
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Let me point out one other thing here for the Alumalite company to consider. All the people that have posted comments to this thread before todays debate came up, are professional or rather "very professional" signmakers. Much moreso than myself being relatively new to the trade. They have nearly all chosen Dibond as a superior product and some will use it exclusively. The only rebutals that I have had in favor of the Alumalite product, is it's availability in different colors for the signmaker that doesn't want to custom color his pieces or the one that just doesn't get into the finer line of custom signmaking. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't occasionally do that also, needing to put out a quicky, less expensive piece. The point that I'm trying to get to is that there is a whole different market that your company can get to out there, if it will just produce the "other type" of product. Let me guess that at least 80 percent of signmakers that have access to both products would gladly purchase it from your resourse, if you care to mfg. it. Otherwise they will stickin with the other guy. Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Well, we are always trying to improve our product and that certainly will not stop. I thank you for your time and appreciate your comments. I will be available should anyone have any questions and I can certainly fax any engineering data should anyone desire.
Respectfully, Garrett
------------------ Laminators Incorporated "The Omega Panel People"
Posts: 3 | From: Hatfield, PA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Colors?!? I have yet to find a New England supplier of ANY laminated material that stocks any color other than white! The closest I've come is the sample swatches, but try ordering something other than white and all we get is the three-weeks-special-order story, or the we-don't-have-warehouse-space complaint, and it gets old. Having recently tried Di-bond, and liked it, I'll use it again - certainly all those mythical "color choices" aren't going to influence my decisions.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hi Garrett, Will your products ever be available in Australia?. I am a broken old man from lifting heavy compressed wood products which break down quickly. Please get an Australian Agent soon. If you don't know any then I can put you onto some. Regards Dave
------------------ Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesig@dingoblue.net.au Downunder "If we did all things we are capable of doing, we would literally astound ourselves" - Thomas Edison
Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
We have used quite a bit of both products, and really like them. On large HDU signs we have used the Alumilite as a backer, and it worked very well. The "Pleasant Harbor" sign on our website is 8'x10' and backed with Alumilite. For smaller signs we prefer Dibond, because of the ease of finishing the edge. I have also noticed Alumilite denting and scratching easier while working with it. Our suppliers carry white only, if i could get the other colors i would buy more. I think both products have thier uses. Have you considered a Dibond like product?
I have used alumilite extensively since its inception, there are 2 main failures i see in the product.
1. The corners are very suceptible to delaminating with a slight bump while turning a panel or standing it against a wall.
2. I have a few signs probably 18 months old without edge-cap that i have looked at and the edges have started to deteriorate!!! We use edge cap on every panel now.
Overall i am very happy with this product but feel that there is room for improvement. Also I have looked over our orders from last year and we used over 200 panels with very little problems at all, alumilite is the only thing I use for billboards now, and my employees really appreciate the weight difference.
just my 2 cents.
------------------ Signs by Shawn 314-462-3317 kmccor01@mail.win.org
Posts: 241 | From: Troy, MO, USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
This has been a really good thread. Yet another reason I am a resident and supporter. Being in both the sign business and retail clothing experience gives me a unique perspective. The gentleman from Laminators handled himself well. He does need to consider the points of the denting, corners delaminating/tearing, and the finished look of the edge. I haven't had any Dibond, I know where I can get it. It sounds like it is solid core. That's what I don't like about Alumalite. A white or colored panel with black corrugation showing. I don't want to take the time to put on the edge cap...it tends to shrink and the corner opens. Too picky? It's my way of having a FINISHED looking sign. Dibond sounds like it can eliminate some problems. Color choices are few for Dibond. Laminators, why not build upon a built in distributorship and make a product similar to Dibond? From the sound of this thread...you will win 'em over because more distributors equals easy access which makes it more likely for people to buy. Thanks again Garrett for the high road of conversation and those who have posted up to this point. Mick Samsel
------------------
Posts: 499 | From: Cherokee, Ia USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Yes, thank you Garrett , you have been very diplomatic about this rant of mine. Perhaps a new product could emerge in the wings. If it does, my posts will not have been in vain. I wish you and your company the best, and I guess my message has got to you folks, as I somehow hoped it would. What you do with it, is up to you. Sincerely, Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I also use the Alumalite for its weight factor and smooth finish.For colors, I will paint as per request!I find that taking your time and being careful with the product,will elimenate any denting from the start. I applaude Garrett or any other supplier with the sense to see the benifit of this board for reasons he has stated."SERVICE" hope this helps
------------------ PKing is Pat King of King Sign Design in McCalla,Alabama The Professor of SIGNOLOGY
Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Pat, Alumalite is lightweight, that I will agree on. As far a smooth, Dibond is much smoother, or at least flater (much). As far as being careful, I really don't have to worry to much because the supplier has usually already done it in. I use 3 suppliers, so it's not just the carelessness of one or any of them for that matter. Let me describe my last piece (and I should have sent it back) Alumalite,,, One side so rippled from the lamination rollers so much that I can count every corrugation in it. The other side with a recurring dent about every 14 to 16 inches the entire length of the piece, indicating a mfg. problem (this I'm sure was corrected after the fact). 2 dents in one edge, that I was able to cut off (many times, I am without this ability) Let me try to recap my statements. Dibond, is way less prone to most types of denting.....Dibond has a much smoother or flatter face ....Dibond leaves a lot nicer edge which can be filed to look like solid aluminum when finished.... Dibond routs much nicer....Dibond's edge does not need a cheepy looking piece of plastic on its edges for protection and is much less prone to pressure delamination (dragging the edge away).....The price of both products are almost exactly the same. Alumalite is lighter weight, boasts a stronger side strength and comes in an assortment of colors. I like the side strength. I'm not sure if the side strength is better than the 4 mil Dibond as I don't have but a small sample of it to test. All, the elements that I have spoke of are without question, at least to myself. My statements are certainly not set in stone, but I do have that contracted with a local monument company. Bronzeo
Sunday AM: I'm posting my last comments to this thread, so as to allow this sucker to sink to the archives. Thanks to all that have posted. I have no vengence toward Alumalite, and wish them the best, but wished that they would produce a solid core product in their line. I prefer solid core vanilla Pat. Ha.Ha......
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
[This message has been edited by bronzeo (edited February 04, 2001).]
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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after posting on this topic this morning, I went and installed 4 4x8 sheets of candy apple red alumilite on a car wash customers building, I remembered the post about the corogations being changed in direction, 2 of the panels had the corogations running horizontal and 2 had them running vertical...Is this just some old and new stock or is this a random thing???
thanks
Shawn
------------------ Signs by Shawn 314-462-3317 kmccor01@mail.win.org
Posts: 241 | From: Troy, MO, USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Shawn, all the sheets I have purchased in the last three or four months have had the flutes running parallel to the 8' side. I currently have about a dozen sheets in the shop, and all of them are like that.
posted
I am getting my dog out of this fight! Hope who ever makes Diabond will give you a salesman fee.My only question about your most recent purchase that you went into great detail about the flaws in the Alumalite is on't you look at the material BEFORE you buy it?Even a lumber yard will let you pick out the pieces you want to buy for your particular project. I really don't know the situation in MO. BUT down here in the South,the customer(me)gets the say so on what he purchases!If I decide that a substrate needs to be ordered out of town and shipped in as to give MY customer the best product.I inform my customer of the decision and he usally agrees because he knows I am looking out for HIS best interest in producing quality work. Sorry but I do not let customers or suppliers run my business.There are too many of BOTH and my reputaion is more important than that. Just my opinion( I like Chocolate as opposed to Vanilla)and will buy the same.
------------------ PKing is Pat King of King Sign Design in McCalla,Alabama The Professor of SIGNOLOGY
Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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on't you look at the material BEFORE you buy it?Even a lumber yard will let you pick out the pieces you want to buy for your particular project.
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