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Twenty years ago sign production companies were limited in what they could offer customers in terms of personalized work. "Businesses were limited as to how they could express themselves because the industry just couldn't handle the custom work.," said Ray Titus, President of SIGN*A*RAMAź.
Computers changed that. With improved technology in hardware and software, virtually any request can be fulfilled by SIGN*A*RAMAź, and done so in a short period of time.
......from thier website.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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yea and they sure can paint some great signs...
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Whats the complaint? you all eat and shop at franchises everyday. What I want to know is why persons doing signs bad mouth each other when some never even had a crayon in their hand!
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Joey....as I type this, I first want to say Merry Christmas to you. I hope you are doing well.
Franchises are not my favorite for many reasons. Most of the time people buy them without any previous sign knowledge. (I know how people twho don't know their stuff bug you) Most of the time their work sucks. Not ALL the time I must add, because I know how many disect the schit outta everything anybody says. Some of the time they have a bad attitude towards other small businesses. I have actually heard owners of one franchise say they want to 'put all the small sign businesses out of business.' How nice I like meeting other sign shop owners. I haven't had pleasant experiences with any franchise as of yet. But with every other sign business I have. And Last but not Least........look at their logos! Do they suck or what?
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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It was Ray's Dad, Roy, who said something to the effect of "I could give 2 sh*ts about what you do with your franchise as long as I get my money." Referring to the franchise fees that are collected every month. This story was told to me many years ago by a perspective franchisee who was debating on going into the sign business. Needless to say, he didn't go with Roy.
Havin' fun, Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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"FRANCHISE" is espiranto for "lemme clean out your bank account"! The only reason there are franchises, is so the guy who started it can make money,.....YOUR money. Some franchises are real goldmines, like MacDonalds. But I'm convinced that the Sign fanchises are "slight-of-hand" deals. The people who create the franchises are pretty fast talkers, convincing novices that they'll make a bundle if they follow the rules. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it doesn't! Then there's the public, who'll buy anything if it's cheap enough. Personally, I'd rather go out of business on my own, without anyone's help!
[ December 17, 2002, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
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I think, like franchises, a lot of people here got started on your own, with no previous experience, so tell me how different are most you in that regard? A francise is only as good as the person who runs it, a sign shop, like what you do, is only as good as the person who run it! In my profession designers rip on sign shop owners like yourselves all the time, I think it's totally unfair! And though I think there are a few here who can't design themselves out of a paper bag, my view is that I look at the passion in which you get the job done, the wanting to learn, the expression of brother and sisterhood involved in being a sign person, franchise bashing is unfair because you could be bashing some very talented people that have the same goals you do, having worked at one, though not a pleasant experience, had little to do with being a franchise, but that my boss was not very nice. Anyways I said my peice I feel better now.... Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rick you are right about it not being nice to bash franchises. However when people buy them just because they need something to do...or buy them thinking 'gee what an easy way to make money' ...it doesn't always mean they have the passion. Those of us who started from scratch didn't know much about signs in the beginning either, but I think the difference is having the desire to make the signs nice looking, effective and something you are proud of, instead of just having the desire to hopefully fill your bank account, and screw all the other sign businesses in the process.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I agree Cheryl, but I also don't like putting that kind of judgement on anyone, since I don't like to be judged that way. I believe to think that a person finds it a good work to get into, fullfilling, artistic, and a decent living, the franchise owners getting into for the wrong reason will most likely not survive without the real love for the craft anyways. I have worked for non-franchise shops also, in it for the money, with no real passion, was it fun to work for? No! But I had it and that was what made it fullfiling for me (for the time I was there). But that is my experience in this business, I think if I was a small shop owner, and introduced myself to a local jerk franchise owner, I could very well have the same viewpoint. But I'm employed at design firm and freelance and make signs at home, and at a different level then they are in this business, so I tend not worry about them at all. Intersting postings.... Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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The ONLY differences between an independent sign shop and a franchise shop is that the franchise folks are out $100,000 for the right to use a branded business name that will hopefully make people comfortable with using them.
I'll use McDonald's as an example - it doesnt matter where you find a McD's, everyone knows that the food tastes the same no matter what store you get it from.. even though it's crappy food, people are comfortable with the crappiness and the speed.
The sign franchises are trying to create the same thing, a brand name that people can trust.
All of Cheryl's comments, and this isnt meant to be deroggatory nor an attack on Cheryl, can be applied to EVERY sign shop on the planet.
How many sign people get into the sign biz without having ONE SHRED of knowledge about the business? A LOT! Ya just learn it along the way. If everyone in the biz knew all there was to know before going into biz, this website would not exist.
How many people get into the biz without ONE SHRED of artistic talent? Too many for me to list, I tell ya that includes many people here in Letterville. You can't tell me that of 7,000 registered sign shops, all of them have a high degree of talent! You hone the skills along the way!
None of those points are specific to franchise shops, they can apply to ANYONE.
What it boils down to is this: Your talent only carries you so far. There is a point where you have to have some business savvy.
The guys that are selling the hopes - Franchises, books about how to make money in sign biz, books about this and that - those are the guys rollin in it because they know business. They know you can always sell somebody some hope in a book or a bottle - lead the horse to water - but it's up to them to make it work - can't make the horse drink.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Yep Mike, you are right about the business sense. Alot of talented people have zero, and alot of franchises have alot. I have just had bad experiences with franchises, and I know there are plenty of nice franchise owners who do great work. I just haven't met them.
My bet would be that those who started making signs many years ago had artistic talent way back. They possibly fell into the sign business. Most of the oldtime signpainters I knew were artists for sure.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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I have to agree with Dan comments, my boss is on his third book, and though it is a good tool for self-promotion, it is a whole lot of work for such little or no return. I think more people, like Dan or my boss tend to want to share knowledge, and spotlight others good work. It's true some who write articles can be swayed by manufacturers and product makers, but as a whole its the sharing should be appreciated. It's funny though that if you look at the levels we are all at in this business, we tend to have misconceptions about each other, and tend to comment on things we observe from a distance. I know I do it, and I have worked at almost every kind of signshop imaginable. I have to say being here that the craft is still very much alive, and we have some very talented peope we can learn from. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Your book teaches techniques and design, I'm talking about books that promise money. You know the difference between "Here's how you can create effective logos which can lead to increased income" versus "read my book and you will become a millionaire in the sign biz." Talent/skill versus business sense/hope.
[ December 17, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I posted the comments because I belive that this is what the perception is to new owners. That customer needs were not being met. I can't say myself, I was in school 20 years ago. All I know is that it did raise my eyebrows.
I knew that the post would bring the back and forth pro and con and that's cool.
A S-A-R opened (again) in my town. I stopped in for a Howdy do. Nice guys. The owner has another business, so rookie status does not apply here.
Yes, thier first signs look like my first signs, plain and simple. I get to watch any progress that is made in design and execution. An experiment of sorts.
I just attended the sign show in AC. It seems to me these shows cater to the quick sign shops with increasingly faster and easier software to produce even more professional looking signs.
I saw one software package that lets the sustomer choose a logo layout from a catalog of thousands of images. You simply type in the customers name and presto, it centers, kerns, and fits everything perfectly.
I saw another scan and trace an image, and them locate the typestyle that was used.
We all know none of this technology works well unless your imagination is in gear before you start. I call this job security.
I just found the mission statement a little ironic. Needs of the customer.....hmmm
You all got bigger trouble than the fanchise shops.
Now the franchise shops are in trouble.
Every printer in your town will be in the sign business if not already. Sooner than you think!
Digital printing is in, outdoor durable inks are in, print shops have their stores already in place, their sales force is already taking print orders, and now when they get the print order, they will get their sign order as well.
Maybe they wont be able to install the graphics on a van or truck right now, but it wont take too long to figure out all they have to do is hire someone with sign experience.
Its sooooo easy for the print shops to go in the sign business. All they have to do is upgrade their wide paper inkjet printers to ones that will print on banner material and vinyl and contour cut as well.
Sol Jets are a very affordable $20,000 dollars.
The reverse is that a sign shop could buy tons of paper copiers and become a print shop...for maybe a few bucks....$300,000.
I think we are about to enter another whole new era of dark red Brush Script letters with black shadow on a white background, as the printers now try thier hand at makeing signs.
How long before the printers start carving? I hope to retire before they start printing dimensional signs by the ton.....ha!
Seriously, the local wide printer/photo processor is having a tough time. First the wide format printer companies started to sell to anyone with a PC including all his customers, then the photofinishing business started the big downward spiral as digital cameras started to replace film.
The traditional printing business also is being squeezed by the digital technology and too much competition ...heck we send out printing to Canada. The local printers cost about 5x more even though there is one every few miles.
We are seeing a graphics consolidation, for instance we do small carved signs, screen printing and Edge printing work along with vinyl and banners. The computers allow us to tackle a much wider variety of work than was possible a few years ago.
Competition will continue to increase, we are even getting email from India, they want to do our digitizing work overnight. Imagine-that, we can sub work out to India!!! Just like GE, Intel, and the rest of the big boys.
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1726 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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Can you say "Pyramid" the only people getting rich in the franchises are the people selling the franchise...the more franchises they sell the higher their profits...if one falls by the wayside another takes its place.
We started our operation on $47.00 that puts us $99,953. ahead of the game.
If a franchise is the only way someone can see getting into business more power to them...I'm just not geared that way...we'll always shake their hand and tip our hat.
Oh and what planet do you live on Ernie...A clean restroom in McDonalds?
[ December 18, 2002, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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I've just spent 3 days on a pair of 8' x 4' perspex panels cutting and back spraying the way we did back in BC and I know in my heart that the customer is getting a far superior job than translucent vinyl stuck on semi transparent perspex that turns yellow in 6 months. That is how franchisees do that sort of work because they can knock it out quick and probably won't be around when the vinyl fades and curls. What I am coming at is this: 1. They destroy the pricing fabric 2. They show no pride in their work 3. They have caused us to get less than what the job is worth. 4. They use cheap materials. Some vinyl jockeys are very adept at learning the trade and do very good work and show natural talent and charge respectively for what they do, but a lot do not understand the old ways of signwriting, when we had to spend hours laying out a sign and then second coating certain colors. Then along came computers and prices went straight down and every second client was an "artist". Now every job we do has to be checked out and signed off before commencing work. I never did that in the old days. The very job that I started talking about above nearly ended up in an argument. The cutomer was fine but then he wanted his wife to check it out and that is when the sh#^ hit the fan. I don't mind if someone tells me they don't like what I have done, but I won't tolerate being told by a bitch that because she had been in "desktop publishing" my whole design was wrong- because she learnt that "all caps" was bad and that no more than 4 fonts should be used. I I hadn't already picked up the perspex I would have shown her the door. I did tell her that I had never worked for a desktop publisher before and that as far as I was concerned it was a new buzz word for a button pusher. When I did my apprenticeship the "graphic art" shops were called Advertising agencies and they employed commercial artists who arranged Letraset and composed a design by the "cut & paste method and used gallery cameras from which the tradesmen would then utilise overhead projectors to aquire a very desireable sign. (Sometimes). Thanks for the platform and I will now step down.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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I guess I was having one of those 40 year flash backs. Comparing the new MacDonalds bathrooms to the old service stations that were surrounded by junk cars.
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1726 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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I don't get why everyone complains.....because it hits home? Every industry is gettin like this. I'm sure the local hardware guy really had passion and cared about his tools before old Home Depot came by. We've all shopped at the Home Depots and Walmarts, whether your gonna admit it or not. Does that make us Hypocrites? I figure if your as good as you think you are you shouldn't have any problems. If you have problems, then maybe your not quite the salesman & artist that you thought you were. Get over it and go knock on some doors and hand out some flyers.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bruce, you're 100% correct!......HOWEVER........ a "minor" problem is that the average purchaser is not all that interested in anything other than "cheap" and "now". Look around.....CONVENIENCE STORES>>>>>FAST FOOD>>>>>>WALMART>>>>>>etc. etc......NEXT......SIGNS BY THE POUND! Not to say some of us are "creative" enough to overcome anything, BUT.....us sign people aren't anything more than "average" in most aspects of talent and business savvy. So, many of us will suffer along with all the other businesses going in the dumper!
i'm happy to be in the sign industry. my customers are all nice people. when i'm working on a sign, the hours fly by. i was on a scaffold two weeks ago painting on a brick wall, and noticed my stomach was growling. i'd been working for 4 hours without a break. i've never missed a lunch break before at any other job i had -- this one's just a lot more fun.
my customers are smart enough to know that if they want a McSign they can go to a quick shop. my customers don't want that. i've got a small niche of people who want "nice" rather than "quick".
Don't blame the franchise shop if you're losing business to them. Instead, sharpen your marketing skills AND check to see if you're out of touch with your customers.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Hey Skooter we are 'discussing' not whining. I absolutely love my job too. And I have great, very SMART customers. But let's face it....there are alot of dumb asses who don't care what their signs look like. And so they go.......ho ho ho...to the franchisO. I send some there.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:1. They destroy the pricing fabric 2. They show no pride in their work 3. They have caused us to get less than what the job is worth. 4. They use cheap materials.
I appreciated David's comments here, but it is also true that sign makers of this type have always been around. They were snappers and knock-out artists. It's just that the difficulty of mastering brush lettering kept their numbers smaller in the past. Now, just as the computer has set us free as designers from the pencil, so it has allowed sign producers to proliferate. No doubt cabinetmakers once similarly lamented the advent of power tools: "Now everybody can be a cabinetmaker!" And surely this is true of every industry. Maybe of every human endeavor. Franchises are easy to target. They are highly visible. The computer was the target before that. Perhaps there was a time when store-bought lettering colors were ridiculed: "Real sign painters make their own." Should a person not presume to make funiture with power tools if he has not first learned the art of hand joinery? Surely there were at one time craftsmen who viewed the power saw as a sell-out.
A franchise is just a method. Like a computer or a power saw, it's a tool. Inherently, it's neither good nor bad. Why then does it inspire animosity? I think it may be because of it's emphasis on the bottom line. But is this not as it should be? While it may seem noble to pursue our beloved craft without regard to maximizing profit, it is, I believe, a mistake. I am working for a sign company now whose CEO came up through the accounting department. It has been a revealing experience for me. The salaries and bonuses are very good and the benefits are excellant. Service trucks are new or nearly so. The paint booth is state-of-the-art. The shop is warm enough to work in a t-shirt, and when I need a tool or some supply item, I fill out a form and give it to the "production support" person, who often buys it and brings it to my area the same day. Safety rules are in place and enforced. We even have a janitor that cleans up our messes in the shop. Suppliers have told me that this company always pays their bills on time.
All of the above things are made possible because the money is there. Making the money is the first priority, as it supports everything else. A franchise is just another way of doing it. It is a method for business that has succeeded in many industries. How successful it will be in the long run for the sign industry remains to be seen. Maybe it's not a good fit, but it's not the root of all sign evil either.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Here we go again, blaming someone else for your own problems or your own lack of moral decency.
Most of the problems we see in this country (USA) are the result of people refusing to take responsibility for their own lives. It's way too easy, (and it sure feels good) to point the finger at the other guy, instead of taking a hard look in the mirror at what you have become.
I especially find it disturbing to have Dave from 'downunder' refer to a woman as a 'bitch.' I am also dumbfounded that no woman on this board has bothered to say anything to him about it. After all, we're all caught up in the 'feeling better' euphoria by putting someone else down, so we miss the slurs and the disrespect of our own 'friends.'
I visit a few sign related message boards, and never have I seen a tirade against franchise shops. Not once. Only on Letterville. And this topic pops up about every 6 months. It's like a junky needing his fix, time to feel good again.
I visit this board almost every single night. I learn a lot of great things. I post once in a while, not very often. I tire of being flamed.
Like Brad in Kansas said "Franchises are not the root of all sign evil either".
Please people, lighten up. Look in the mirror. Learn to live with yourself. Maybe you'll start to see that we are not out to destroy you.
A franchise owner, and proud of it.
-------------------- Stephen Bolin Signs By Tomorrow Holland, MI Posts: 78 | From: Holland, MI | Registered: Aug 2001
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Let me first admit, that at the moment I work for a franchise. Only I had gotten in to this art a few years before. I had tried to get my own business rolling, but had very little cash. I am only 23 years old, and I have just moved from Massachusetts to Florida and bought my first home. So needless to say, I currently have to do this to pay the mortgage note. I can tell you, my first day was horrific! The owner was eye-balling vehicle lettering!!! So what do you say on your first day? Well, this was my test to see if this going to work out or not. I said what the hell are you doing? He said what do you mean? I explained that his method would only hurt him, and he was willing to learn, so I have shown him alot, some I have learned by trial and error, and some that all of you have taught me. Hell, he wouldn't even think of using Red Helvetica now. He now takes pride in his work, and puts alot of effort into it. But I must tell you, I still haven't shared this toen of Letterville with him, some things are best kept unsaid. I guess I'm saying is sometimes you can find a good one. Hopefully some day, I will be in a position to go on my own!
Thanks for teaching me the right ways, Brian Caissie
-------------------- BRIAN CAISSIE
7 Dewey St. Unit 11 Natick, Ma 01760 Posts: 99 | From: Natick, Ma | Registered: Jan 2002
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If everyone would invest half as much time in mastering their profession as they do blaming everyone else for their problems, there would be no time for this discussion.
The times they are a changing. Face it, deal with it. Aint goin away and aint gonna change anytime soon. Sink or swim, eat or be eaten.
Technology will continue to change the face of the earth and the future of the sign industry. Figure out how to use it to your advantage.
Letterheads have no god given right to the sign business. This is America. Land of opportunity for anybody.
I taught myself this business and I intend to teach myself how to survive in it. The art part is the easy part. The part we have to learn now and the most important is the business part.
I expect one day to see WalMart selling signs. I hope that I am smart and savvy enought to beat them to it.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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well....i can only speak for myself...and i can tell ya that i'm up to my eyeballs in sign eqpmt debt.(i like living on the edge...fear of failure is such a motivating factor) AND...cause i'd rather die owing tons than go with $$ in the bank...with that said i can't see how paying for a franchise(personally i think they are f**king you and ya aint laying down to enjoy it) would put the the franchisee in any better position than me regarding the almighty loans...hence, i don't worry about them taking business from me...that would mean they have to work as hard as i do...and if they are willing to do that then they are just as deserving as the next person for success. without the passion ya aint gonna get far anyway and i think that goes for any business...hell when i first started (10 yrs ago)i was an accountant/artist wanna-be. i'm still learning everyday...and i don't see any straight road ahead of me for awhile. there's always going to be the "video killed the radio star" scenario as long as technology thrusts full speed ahead. and there's no stopping the shortlived sign shops that will spring up because the trust fund baby didn't know what he/she wanted to do with the yearly check(apparently giving it to me has never been an issue)...when they get bored and figure out that they suck they'll move on to something else(like a restaurant/bar). i've seen this b4. cream rises to the top so don't lose too much sleep. jump on the techno band wagon if you want, take chances and enjoy what you do.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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and I have worked at almost every kind of signshop imaginable. I have to say being here that the craft is still very much alive, and we have some very talented peope we can learn from.
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