posted
Warning to vendors, if your sales drop it might not be the price.
We recently got an order of HDU from a vendor we have been using for years. We specifically ordered signfoam but they shipped us brand X. Apparently there are now 4 brands of HDU to pick from and they picked the cheapest.
Fine, they saved some money, but we got material with bubbles and surface damage. Calling them up we got a takeit or leaveit attitude from them.
I guess we leave it, this new england vendor won't be getting any orders from us again. When the quality is bad I don't make a fuss I just drop them off my list.
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1725 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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Whether it be poor quality or poor service, I will not continue to do business. In today's world with so much competition there is no excuse. Either they want us as customers or they don't.
posted
This is a continuation of my earlier post about our supplier dropping High performance (tried n' true)vinyls and substituting them with "cheaper" materials. I find it hard to believe that it is for the venders (you and me) benefit.
In someways I blame the H/P providers for not having a sales staff that is creative enough to keep their product at the fore.
Sure there are a lot of vendors that buys the cheapest product possible.But as "Bushie" (from down under) has pointed out...it doesn't change the labor factor...in fact in your case it increases the labor factor...which is much more serious than adjusting for a fixed price of materials.
One can only hope that someone (anyone) from the suppliers are reading these posts.
Tho I doubt it!
If they are I wish they would speak up and let us hear their version of the truth...maybe we could get some sort of dialouge started on the "if's and buts, whys and why nots"
[ December 12, 2002, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
I haved given my suppliers a "Do Not Substitute" letter that should be on my file somewhere. When the order is placed, either a brand is specified or the product number is specific to that brand.
If something else is shipped, either I refuse to accept it or send it back. So far, I have had no problem with being forced to pay for something that I didn't order.
Some suppliers refuse to stock the items that I use, so they don't get my business. When a salesman asks, "What can we do to get your business?" I just tell them. Most of the time they say that not enough people use that product and that they stock something else that is less expensive. That's fine with me. I'll just order it from someone who wants my business.
One of my main complaints with suppliers is trying to get a special order on something that no one seems to have in stock. For instance, I needed some P-B Resin and none of my suppliers who handle Coastal Enterprises products kept any in stock. In fact, I had to explain what it was. No one was really interested in ordering any for me and when I found a person that was actually capable of going through the process I had to wait four weeks and go through a bunch of phone calls because they "forgot" to place the order, or I got a response of "Now, what was it you wanted?".
I will have to admit that most of my suppliers give excellent service. Just occassionally I need something that is not on their shelf - that's when the "system" goes into a tail spin.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I often wonder why some outfit a thousand miles away can carry something yet the local suppliers can't. I've been in business for over twenty years, the majority of my supplies come from out of town. When I still had my shop , a sales rep from one of the local suppliers came by. "Why is it you don't buy anything from us" I sat him down and wrote a list and asked if they carried anything on the list. He said "No, but we can order it for you"..... gee, how special
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
to continue George's comments... Yeah, suppliers will "special order" materials, if you are willing to wait several weeks, or buy large quantities (sure, that's what I need, 50 sheets of MDO taking up what little room I have left!)
Want to find out how suppliers think? Try SELLING them a high-quality, premium-priced product. I've been down this road with the bracket business - they'll stock the cheapo crap brackets that sell for $12.95, while telling me "nobody will pay for" what I make... then turn around and tell their customers that a better product isn't available. I KNOW they do this, because I've had friends specifically ask for my products from suppliers who have seen my samples, and have had salespeople that give them misleading information. Meanwhile, the purchasing agent for the supplier won't return a phone call. What that tells me is that "customer feedback" only works in one direction, and that purchasing agents are primarily interested in volume sales, rather than quality materials. But then, whose fault is that?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
my take on this supplier/material thing...its backward lowballin. so many new vinyl shops opened in the heyday(when they 1st started)the suppliers had most of us by the proverbial cahonas. now a days these suppliers are finding that along with the increase of sign shops=increase of suppliers!!! now suppliers are like sign shops...all doin anything to get your business.....and they try to get the price of their vinyl competitive with the next guy(which they had for many years, all about the same price)now i got em callin 2-3-4 a week....hey joe have i got a deal for you on......... we all get it. biggest deal they are pushin is drop shipping cost...and then ontop of that they are lowballin other suppliers prices....so now its a buyers market in this trade....no longer i got what you need ...so you will pay my price!!! example:AMERIBAN couple months ago i get mail flyer...3'x8' or 3'x10' 10 oz. white banners for $9.99 EACH if you buy 5 or more!!! so i bought 10!!!!! sold all but 3 since(at 5-6 sq.ft. per banner)....normally a banner this size cost me $20 or more... i like it...finally we are getting some of the money back we spent when the supplier was makin all the money....they drop ship most are doing it for $100 some $150 sale....if you plan your orders, dont just order daily...you can get say 2 rolls intermediate 20"x 50yrd.(these are 15-20 lbs) for a good price so you can pocket the shipping cost..or spend that on more material. i have an old book from GREGORY 94-95 and they have decreased their prices considerable from then till now.....same with most others. i think you will see the trend continue....as more suppliers show up...now its SIGN SUPPLYS NOW, OR FAST SUPPLIES, SUPPLIES BY TOMARROW....what goes a round comes around.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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This probably won't make you feel any better, but I thought I would share it. I ordered a 4x8x3/4x18# sheet of SignFoam last week. I needed to cut 4 pieces ranging from 8"x12" to 14"x20". I could not find a place on either side to cut any of these without at least one 1/16" hole in the surface. It had the SignFoam stamp on it, and it was covering 2 holes.
I am a firm believer in paying a little more to get a quality product ( whether it is to save me production time or to enhance the quality of my product), but when the high dollar guys don't have quality either, it makes you consider trying brand X.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2318 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I also went shopping for a new supplier today, after being told that a regional office of a national supplier wouldn't ship a $540 - 15 yd roll of translucent inkjet film by express post as requested. It's not about the shipping costs, It's just that I live in a remote area and express post is the fastest way to get small, rush orders (3 days vs 5 days by courier air). It's rare that I need orders in a hurry, but when I do it's important to me that the supplier is able to follow directions. A supplier that I haven't used in a couple of years, was happy to ship the order as specified. This morning I checked pricing on items I use regularly and made 1 call to negotiate freight on normal orders and guess who'll be getting my business in future..
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
OK…I thought I might weigh in here, there seems to be more then one issue to address so I will take them one at a time.
Ernie first. I am sorry that you ordered SignFoam by name and received something else. That has long been one the most frustrating things we deal with, and you would be surprised at how often it happens. There will always be choices for consumers and as a product manufacture we recognize that the customer has the ultimate say so. We have always tried to make our products as accessible as possible, and we will continue to expand our coverage when possible. Please let me know if you ANY additional help in find a SignFoam dealer to meet your needs.
Now on to Monte. I can only speak generically to your post; however, I think many of the same principles apply. The root of the problem is that there are very few products or materials that were actually created for the sign industry. Most have been produced for years for other more industrial applications. The majority of these other industries are far less fickle regarding the quality of these materials. The sign industry does not have this luxury; quality is essential from start to finish to insure success in this “visually driven” industry. So the first one in the sign industry does the R&D and adjusts the quality up to sign industry standards, if they didn’t new products would never make it. Then the next guys see all his product being sold into the sign industry and says “well I can do that too”, he looks at the prices and say “and cheaper as well”. He (the new guy) makes a pitch to a buyer who, in many cases has never made a sign, and the buyer says this “looks” just like what I am already selling, and it COSTS LESS!!!…He (the buyer) wrongly assumes that the customers will be more then happy to buy and use this less expensive new product. Now here is where it gets complicated. Before distributor (A) realizes that he has made a mistake and his customers don’t want this new cheaper version of what was a great product; distributor (B) hears about the prices being quoted by the competition….panics, and brings in the cheaper product in order to compete.
I feel like I have too much time on my hands, or maybe should not have had that last cup of coffee. The world may not be fair, but market forces are at work. Insist on quality, be willing to pay fairly for it, and charge your customers according. If we all do that, everybody wins.
Raymond, right on!
This brings me to Ernie. Ernie, I cannot begrudge your comments one bit. I would be no more interested in pay a premium for less the premium material then you. Let me first offer my apologies that the SignFoam you purchased did not meet your quality standards. If the SignFoam you purchased was unacceptable to you then it is unacceptable to us as well, and we will replace it. That being said, let me take a moment and explain some changes we have made to minimize this problem in the future.
HDU manufacturing can be broken down in to two main parts, chemistry and processes. Chemistry is where we control physical properties like cell structure, and strength. Processing is where we control things like warping, and pinholes. The pinholes you described can never be completely eliminated; anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something. We have gone to great lengths control them, and will often produce hundreds of sheets without a pinhole. Pinholes come from air that is trapped in the mix as turns from a liquid to a solid. Air gets mixed in two ways, first in “mixing” and then in “pouring”. We have in the last 6 months made some significant changes in both these processes, and have seen incredible improvements in the quality of our sheets. The mixing stage involves large buckets holding hundreds of pounds of liquid chemical. There are large spindles that turn at a high rate of speed, this spinning causes cavitations, the cavitations pull air down into the mix. We have engineered and constructed all new mixing vats…no more cavitations. The pouring stage involves transferring the liquid from the mixing buckets to the molds. We have tried every conceivable method of transfer imaginable. The trick is getting from the bucket to the mold with the material “folding” on itself, easier said then done. But we did it, I can’t say how, but we did. As a result you should see a noticeable decrease in any kind of pinholes in the sheet. I wish I could promise defect free material for everybody, every time, but that is not the real world. I will however promise you this, if you are not satisfied with our product, we will not be satisfied, If we cannot make it right, well help you find a supplier who can.
I hope I was not TOO long winded here; I will try and check in more often so I can write less. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any other questions I can help with.
Regards,
Joe
-------------------- "I don't bother saying anything that doesn't take a long time to say"
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