quote:Why is it all the suppliers think we ALL want the cheapest crap we can lay our hands on?
Because Vinyl Jockeys started the rot years ago and now it is too late to go back!!
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've been down this road so many times trying to see the logic in using "cheap" vinyl.
My basic cost using premium vinyl (mostly Callon2)is $90/metre cut using 600mm vinyl or about ten times material cost ... ie about $9/metre buying full rolls. If I do the same 1 metre job in "el Cheapo" Vinyl for $90/metre I'm going to save my self the princely sum of $3 maybe $4 in materials. Or do I pass the saving on to the customer:)ie: $96 job? Or do I use the same formula and say 10x $6 material cost = $60 job ... hell no ... same labour content!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've seen Intermediate vinyls curl off signs within months. Either you have brought your sign shop a bad name (for sure) or your going to have to replace it. But the damage has been done hahahahaha
And don't come the "short term" sign thing either. I've had "short-term" coro signs being used year after year after year for events etc.
Finally, I cannot see the reason to tie up huge amounts of my hard earned money in stocking vinyl. I got heaps layed out on rolls of premium. If I duplicate the whole color range again in intermediate I'm stocking at the very least 50% more. Ain't got the room, money or worries of what we used where, for whom, and when Besides, vinyl has a shelf life or haven't yer noticed !!!!
posted
well thats the same logic my local supplier uses...stock all kinda oracrap....i use avery A5 or A8 and he dont have it, but i got it in oracal...no thanks.....like monty ..iam doin more paintin......big letters....require ONE SHOT!!!!and i can outline em a lot quicker then if i woulda used vinyl....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Oracal has been good to me. What problems are you having?
-------------------- Tom Bahr Custom Signs of St. Cloud, Inc. St. Cloud, MN 320-255-0588 tbahr@astound.net Posts: 71 | From: St. Cloud, MN | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
oooweeee this could press a few hot buttons - last time I checked the "blessed" avery 8 was still available nationwide - there are numerous suppliers who would be more than happy to ship it to you overnight - meanwhile, on the friendly site here we got people calling a merchants products "crap". However; I do understand the frustration when a supplier discontinues a line that you use. I recently had the same experience with steel sign frames I was buying from Ameriban for a particular customer who demands a certain type frame. They are unavailable in my local market (Memphis, TN) but I can have them shipped from Bull Steel up North - Imagine having to eat the freight on 30 of those babies!!! (30 - 24'x36' real estate frames) - as I just had to - oh well, I still made a nice profit on the job - and yes, Oracal went on the faces.........
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
I've seen so much "PUSH" to use Oracal from suppliers & magazines. To me It's a major flood of the product into the market. If a supplier doesn't carry what I use, then I have no problem using a new supplier.
I will not allow a supplier or some corporate sheep hearder to stop me from buying what I consider a superior product. I stock mostly 3M as well.
In my opinion Oracal has not proven to me anything more than it's cheaper than most other vinyls. I have a free roll to try and when I do and it stands the test of time, then maybe I'll consider it.
[ December 12, 2002, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Just out of curiosity, how many here shop at Walmart?
With the economy as tight as it is around here, I can understand Monte's supplier's comment. Its a financial move on their part. If they can sell a product that they believe to be comparable to Gerber/3M and sell it at a lower cost, then that may be what they have to do in order to increase sales and stay in business.
This isn't just a vinyl jockey thing. It's human nature. Many sign painters I know are tightwads always looking for a "deal". So are their customers.
posted
I've been using NOTHING BUT Oracal 751 and MacTac 9800 for EVERYTHING for quite a while now. They both have given me excellent results in weeding, adhesion, and "looks"! The Oracal people are doing some creative marketing, but maybe they have a good product! WORKS FOR ME!
posted
Well being I am in the supply Biz let me give you my 2 cents. Most people want the quakity of 2 mil cast premium vinyl at the cost of the 3 mil calandered vinyl. Then when you tell them the price, they tell you that they can order it from so and so for 3 or 4 dollars a roll less. (Then they pay the frieght.) Then they call and want a sheet or 2 of metal or some other substrate that will have to be shipped to them motor freifgt and the story is altogether different, they do not want to pay the freight cost plus a pallette charge. Now remember these same people will tell you that your vinyl or application tape is to high. Go figure and if you can figure it out you have me beat for sure. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all you wonderful Leaterheads. Fred Floyd Carolina Vinyl
-------------------- Fred Floyd Carolina Vinyl Wilmington, NC USA Posts: 62 | From: Wilmington, NC USA | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I havn't used much Oracal But have had some real bad experiences with MacTac 9800 I had to redo 3 or 4 signs due to pealing not to mention all the extra vinyl I had left over that I was afraid to use. Now I use Kapco Ultracast it's great and I don't mind paying a little extra for piece of mind.
posted
This is an interesting topic to me (as anyone who knows me would guess).
Here's how I see the problem...
For starters, both the sign and sign materials supply markets are heavily oversupplied. You can blame the "vinyl jockey" newcomers for this if you like, but I blame the companies who lowered the cost of entry to this business by selling cheap equipment (that's a matter for another debate altogether, however).
In this oversupplied market, many signshop owners and many sign supplies distributors lack knowledge about the materials and their applications. Likewise, many have weak sales & marketing knowledge/skills.
The factors above combine to result in too many people reaching for the most obvious, and apparently easiest solution to combat the increasingly competitive nature of this business: sell cheaper than your competition. In most cases, rather than reducing costs by enhancing efficiencies, the easy solution is to buy cheaper. This approach creates a downward spiral subject to the law of limited returns...and is therefore not a good solution. Think about it: the cheaper you buy and the cheaper you sell means that you have to do that much more work to yield the same results.
Anyone new to the industry or looking for a better solution would be better advised to be more knowledgeable than your competition, develop your sales and marketing skills (ie take some courses) and to differentiate yourself from the competition -- offering more value to your customers and charging a premium for it.
Phew! It's been a while since I soapboxed like that...now I need a nap.
Have a good day all!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Herein, lies the formula for self-destruction.
Don't blame it specifically on "vinyl jockeys", blame it on the trade.
The "computerization" of the trade has been a double-edged sword. Saved me from lettering lots of 1/2" helvetica...but took people who couldn't hold down jobs at Burger King and put 'em in the sign business. BUT..and this is REALLY important, we allowed it to happen.
Most of us "veterans", from the B.C. ages (before computers), started seeing the "non-hand letterers" pop up in our towns and cities in the late eighties. Now, there's NOTHING wrong with vinyl-only shops. A good layout is a good layout, beit from a sharpie marker or a mouse. What happened, was, they had no experience in not only the design aspects of the trade...they had nothing to gauge their business experience, or lack thereof, against.
Let's face it..there have always been bad business people in every trade, the difference used to be, you still had to know which end of the brush worked.
So we bitch about the "Instant 1 Hour Signs by Tomorrow On A Budget" shops. We shoulda been befriending 'em. Showing them the ropes. Courteously aising them with their design AND business skills. Instead, we bitched.
So the end result has become, "if it's spelled right, it's a quality job" syndrome. All upper case Brush script on an arc. Red copy, Black shadow, on a blue truck. We all see it every day.
I'm sure, that most of these shops would prefer to do quality work. I know they'd all rather make better dough! But as a trade, we failed to address the situation, and educate both our new-found competitors, as well as our clients.
And hence, the price wars between THEM began. Well, business being so business-like at times, those wars spread to the "mixed-media" shops. And now it's effecting everyone.
What the manufacturers are doing is responding to their customers. That's also an important part of business. The "RACE FOR THE BOTTOM", as I call it, is no longer just shop oriented..it's becoming a vendor thing. When enough people ask "how much" vinyl is gonna cost...eventually cheaper vinyl gets built.
I never asked what materials cost. I needed 'em. besides, my CUSTOMERS paid for materials..I made my bucks offa my designs and labor. But now it's all "who can do it the cheapest".
And, before you start throwing stones at any one company...it was GERBER who first tried to attract "non-signpeople" into the business, by advertising in Popular Mechanics, and other non-trace publications, with leases programs, and promises of making a living with one corner of your kitchen table.
So the race is up and running. We can still probably save the trade we love, but we have to work at it. Educate your local newby..in a polite and caring way, cause ya better damn-well care.
How did this conversation start...bitchin about OraCal?
Man, do I get sidetracked..hope I don't get hurt climbin offa my soap box.
posted
I presently use nothing but Oracal. Ive used the 651, 751, and now the 851 which is an eight to ten year vinyl. The new 851 has the same qualities as 3ms best premium. Ive had nothing but good results out of it. Thats just my experience with it. I too was a hand lettering signshop for quite a few years and made the move into vinyl and went through some brands that were not up to my expectations. Oracal is. My supplier is an Oracal dealer and that works out good for both of us. I have a friend that runs a very busy signshop, and does mostly custom type work, and he used alot of Avery, but had quite a few problems with it. Especially lifting in certain areas. He changed over to Oracal and is happy about it. I guess its just a matter of opinion. But Joe, it definitely aint crap.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
I really don't want this to degenerate into an "us and them" post.
My term "QUIT USING IT" was referring to "CHEAPER AND/OR INFERIOR MATERIALS" and was not intended to single any one product out...My apologies to Oracal (I never should have used a name of a product).
Never the less being a BC myself I can point at the destruction of other premium paints that have gone by the wayside this is the same thing...(better promotions by other products)instead of the preferance by the end user.
Oh and by the way...anytime I want quality I don't go to "Walmart" looking for it.
I have other sources for my vinyl...one is 750 miles to the N.W. they ship it to me in 2 days I can buy it by the yard (same price) there's no tax coming across the state lines and it comes here cheaper than if I buy it in town and they have a better selection.(all uf this has made them one of the largest suppliers in the country, they must be doing something right). Sure I use them alot...but I'd use the local guys if only they'd let me.
[ December 12, 2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
If a customer is not happy with a design or layout from a cheaper shop don't you think they would go elsewhere the next time. Why worry about shops that produce garbage it only makes you look that much better! If all a customer wants is helvetica bold then you should offer it to them at a low price along with giving them options for higher quality work for more money. I don't want anyone leaving my shop thinking I'm trying to rip them off so I show them the entire price range every time 1 color vinyl to carved gold leaf then I let the customer decide if he wants to be a cheapskate or if he wants quality
[ December 12, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Richard Doyle ]
posted
If I can't get the product I am looking for localy I find it SOMEWARE ELSE! Kind of like QUALITY get what you want where you can get it. Charge the customer for the inconvenence!
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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They probably have a higher profit margin on the other brand.
If the suppliers make $2 more net profit per roll selling the cheaper stuff, and since they can bank on most signmakers being cheap-o's they can sell the SAME volume of a cheaper product at a virtually negligible reduced price and make more.
Most signmakers, and I see this a lot right here on this BB, count material costs as *their* operating cost. They just don't "get it" that our sign customers should be footing the bill for materials, not us. They'll jump on the bandwagon so they can save $4 per roll.
A couple days ago I got an ad from Ameriban for a Holiday Special.. You can save $4 on vinyl bought on a 50 yard roll. I bet there's a whole lot of people jumpin on that one.. Let's save $4 on a roll of film that can bring in $2,000-$5,000. I don't get that.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
In theory,this is a great idea.....but in reality,the majority of the people here can be just as cheap as the customers they bitch about,and while it's not 'kosher' to admit that on this post it's hardly a secret,how many times have you read someone here say "well i already have XXX product here so i'll just give that a try and keep my fingers crossed.it should work"......look at the heat roger took by suggesting people spend $20 on rapid tac...people having hemmorrhages b/c they could suggest a way to jackrig some kinda garbage in a bottle that may or may not work b/c they could make that for $18........or go back and re-read some of the stuff that made you sit back and say jjeeeeeeeze i can't believe that guy is gonna try that......... EVERYONE is guilty of it at times,it's human nature...if it wasn't monte, no offense, but you'd find a supplier closer than 750miles from you to get Gerber even if you had to pay $$$$X more a roll,there has to be one. I fully realize the point of this post,believe me,i'm a supplier also and customers ARE NOT a picnic,let the price of something increase $.50 over what they used to pay and all you'll hear every time they walk in the door is how you're depriving them of making a living and more assorted whining than a nursery school at snack time. And anyone that doesn't believe that or wants to call me full of it is more than free to take my place for a coupla days and find out for themselves.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Jon Aston and Brian have it right. The "downward spiral" of sign prices lead to a cheapening of materials by manufacturers.
A case in point is MDO. Everyone claims the quality is going to hell. The fact is, Simpson still makes it's Signal brand MDO, which is the best ever, but the sign shops that cut each other's throats on pricing don't want to pay what Simpson costs - instead, they bitch to the suppliers, who buy and stock cheaper grades of MDO, which go to schitt in a year - just so people in the industry can keep selling cheap signs. Suppliers are like the rest of us; they operate on supply and demand, and most of them haven't got the space or the capital to tie up with expensive products, as long as their customers - the sign shops - beat them up on price and force them to sell cheaper products.
This is why the really good quality materials are available only through special order or specialty suppliers. It's been that way for brushes and gilding supplies for some time now, and will soon be the same with paints, and possibly even with top-quality vinyls. High volume suppliers are not going to tie up capital and inventory on better-quality materials for an industry that continues to sell itself as cheap vs. cheaper vs. cheapest.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
"This isn't just a vinyl jockey thing. It's human nature. Many sign painters I know are tightwads always looking for a "deal". So are their customers."
I gotta agree with Glenn. Many years ago, B.C., I used to do a lot of wall work. I used to know a bunch of other wall dogs. Some of them were always turning me on to surplus houses where you could get red enamel for three dollars a gallon:( No thanks fellas, course they in turn thought I was nuts for using One Shot lettering enamel on walls. ( I've still got some twenty year old ones out there working though
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
i will explain MY opinion...and reasoning for calling it ora-crap. 651 is all ive ever tryed. its like cutting the plastic that all the auto parts stores package their display items in!!! you know when you buy something thats in those plastic sealed for life containers that you need a hack saw to open. ive only ever BROKEN one cutting blade....and 651 was what i was cuttin. ive tried a couple rolls(outa nessecity to match a color that was already being used) it really "stinks"(the oder of it gives off effects me adversly)and its almost as unmanageble as that chrome vinyl(which i also dislike). these are my personel objections....in no way to detract from their other products...which i have never used....i did the online free roll of 851....6 months ago...still aint seen it. dont matter. i use AVERY, and like it,BANNERCAL & PERMACAST from ameriban....and i will put their premacast up against any other HP VINYL. also i use GMI CV-300 intermediate, high gloss like oracal 651 but much more comformable(softer, and easier to weed). so if i offened any one with my mis statement...its MY OPINION...and iam allowed that.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hi all! This is a great post and boy do I hear from distributors in different parts of the country how a lot of those "vinyl jockeys" will buy whatever cheapest economy film they can or shop around to other distributors to save to a buck or two a roll.
Let me try to address our position since we were originally fingered
Distributors that chose to stock our new 851 film did so only after extensive testing on their part and feedback from some of their key cast film users. Our products are engineered to outperform competitive films in their class at a competitive price, not to be sold at bargain prices, though we cannot control how distributors choose to sell it.
I'll avoid sounding like a selly merchant but I encourage folks to try it, you just might like it.
We are still offering a free 10yd roll to anyone who wants to test it for themselves through Dec 15th (call today or register on the website). Let me know if you have registered and haven't received your sample.
I'm happy to talk to anybody at length directly anytime and thanks to all the loyal Oracal folks out there!
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Joe, Our 651 Intermediate is definitely denser than other intermediate calandared films, though I can't explain how the blade broke (I've never heard of another case and I'd be perfectly happy to buy you another blade or give you a roll of film to try it again).
It is engineered that way to give it better opacity, dimensional stability, and conformability. I'll admit it's might be a little more difficult to work large curved areas, but on rivets and complex surfaces, it's the best film in its class.
I may never be able to sell you on it, but I'm going to keep trying to convince you to give it another open-minded shot.
I talked to marketing and am personally making sure that sample goes out to you in the next couple of day.
Please, please, please...anytime anybody has a question or issue, let us know and we will do everything we can to take care of it. I won't ever say we never make a mistake, but we will do everything possible to take care of our customers. We aren't a huge impersonal conglomerate with 10,000 different products, we make pressure sensitive graphic films and we care.
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Monte, I'm curious if the supplier in question has also stopped selling other Gerber products besides the vinyl.
I've heard that Gerber has some strict requirements regarding distributors having to stock large amounts of product and equipment. I think this resulted in several former Gerber distributors to stop carrying their products. They just couldn't afford having all the equipment and supplies in stock.
So, it may not be only because they think they can sell more vinyl that costs less... they may have freed up potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting around in inventory.
-------------------- EmpY Mayo Pardo #138 South Elgin, IL. Posts: 436 | From: South Elgin, IL | Registered: Nov 1998
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That is why my local paint store stopped carrying OneShot and Muralo. Both required my supplier to order a minimum amount. The problem was the minimum amount would stay on the shelves for at least a year or so.
----
For the past few years, most of my t-shirt customers wanted Hanes brand shirts. Lately, they've been switching to Gildan which is a heavier weave and cost 25% less. Personally, I prefer the Gildan, not because of its lower price, but because it just seems to wear better. The nice thing is I can sell it for 10% less than the Hanes and make a higher profit margin.
With this tighter economy, we are all looking for ways to be able to compete and still make a reasonable profit.
posted
I'm new to the sign business and don't know Sh** from shinola about the different brands of vinyl. I have to depend on the suppliers, brochuers, and websites like this one to educate me. Yes i went to the BIG show at Charlotte last September and attended several seminars about the sign business and I suscribe to every magazine that I can find. I have worked for myself most of my life and don't believe in selling anything cheap, especially my labor. I'm sure I'll have some vinyl letters fall off of a sign and I'll hopefully learn what caused it and correct it. But you all claim to be good at what you do. If you are and you know the difference between quality and price then you can explain it to your customers and won't have any problem. Please don't be offended by any of my remarks. I respect all of you and your opinions, experience and advice. And I hope to learn something from all of you and if I can share anything or help anyone, please just let me know.
-------------------- Robert Richards Southern Ad Specialties Carrollton, GA 770-830-1501 sasga2000@a0l.com Posts: 138 | From: Carrollton, GA | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Brian...(from your post)"How did this conversation start...bitchin about OraCal"?
Read it all again...(I may have poorly worded the post)but the message I was trying to deliver was...everytime we fall for buying something "cheaper" we are knocking the legs out from under truly "good" products and the suppliers do it to us time and time again...they obviously have their own agenda and seemingly pay no attention to our wants needs or desires...we are afterall the ones paying for the product shouldn't we be able to get what we want?
The supplier hasn't a clue about how long someones product lasts...nor do they care...they base it all on what someone tells them. The sad part is they never listen to what the customer (me and you) tells them.
I must say however that I'm impressed by Kenneth Sandlins observations and I'm pleased to know there are some product people paying attention to what goes on here at the Bull Board.
OK I've said enough ...i'm starting to rant now! I'll leave it here!
[ December 13, 2002, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
ken....you need to puta lable on the boxes of 651....USE ONLY IN WELL VENTILED AREA!!!! iam serious when i said it STINKS..and that it does make me feel terible...i have sensitive lungs, you got some serious carcinigens goin on there!!! and the oder it gives off is nasty. also have they corrected the length...i used 20" rolls and they are 19.5!!!! i have a mobile sign shop..and when i did cut the oracal in it with the doors open..people said "what is that smell?"
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I recieved my free sample. In fact i got a couple of free sampels.... It was fine cuttting ..
However, 3M red cast was the foulest smelling i've ever used.... Teh roll just settin in the closet stank up the entire office..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
OP, Blaming the vinyl for the bad smell eminating from your mobile shop is like blaming the dog for brown air!
Curtis, By "3M cast" do you mean 3mil? I am confused (don't worry, though, it's my normal state).
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Thanks Monte, I think all of us here absolutely agree. Healthy competition should keep all prices reasonable, not drive out quality products.
You will just have to take your business to the supplier carrying what you want to buy. Mercedes and Kia are both doing a brisk business...
Joe, generally, intermediate and HP films use solvent based adhesives which have distinctive odors and different formulations might give someone potentially sensitive to it a reaction. I'm sorry if it did in your case, I'm sure that didn't help how you feel about Oracal!
BTW, how many of ya'll sniff a new vinyl? I was surprised when I entered the industry at how many people not only feel, stretch, tear, but sniff test vinyl. I wonder if the strength of the smell has to do with the aggressivness of the adhesive and the strength of the solvent?
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I am glad to see someone got there free sample to try. I sent off for mine several months ago when they had a post here trying to get people to try it. Still no luck.
The supply and demand thing happened to me a couple of years ago in the airbrushed t-shirt business. I have a preference of textile ink that I have always used, but one of their competitors advertised better and now I can only get the "good stuff" from the manufacturer. I would hope they can stay in business, because they have a better product, but most of the time they can barely get a small ad in the trade magazines.
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1737 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Oracal does smell bad! And it is like cutting hard plastic. Never before have I gone thru as many blades as I have while using Oracal. Kenneth, I know you are doing a great job trying to fix the adhesive problem with Oracal. However too many times I have tried it 'just one more time' to see if it worked, and I always end up ****ed off again. I have gone back to my original supplier and use Arlon again.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
jon..again you dont read well...i said i hadd the doors open, which means i had the 2 front sliders and both rear doors open, almost as good as being outside....i also agree all vinyl has oder...my god iam an old snapper worked outa the back of my van with one shot, mineral spirits, lacqure thinners and easy off(dont inhale this)....so i have a tolerance to some oders...but the oracal 651....is like nothing else, it aint good inside your lungs, made me short of breath. after effects also...kinda nasuated. yea i guess most people like things that dont set off their olefactory sences...like women, and perfume....i like a light sweet non lingering oder. i get really sick at my stomach when i go to malls/parties..and this woman(always one) who didnt take a bath, but put on a gallon of EVENING IN PARIS, or one of them liz taylor perfumes. when she walks by, you can smell her for 15 mins after shes left!!!! sorta how the smell of oracal hits me.
[ December 13, 2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I must not be able to smell because i seriously have to put vinly right up to my face to even notice a smell. I can remember about 15 years ago when i wlaked into my first sign shop job, the vinyl smell was very noticable. Even customers notice it now, but nobody in our shop can smell it anymore. We use loads of Oracal and probably change our plotter blades about once a year, if that. I think OP has plotter/platten/rubber strip issues or either his blades are very cheap. As far as any odor, you can't even compare Oracal with Laquer thinner!! come on! I can't say enough good things about Oracal.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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bruce got 2 differnt plotters....aint a plotter problem, as for the oder....well i know guys who work septic tank trucks....and they dont semm to be bothered by THAT ODER!!!!! does that help any?
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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