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Had a customer come in to my shop today to order a sandblast sign. He couldn't make up his mind whether he wanted redwood or signfoam. I explained to him that the foam is waterproof, that that doesn't split, warp, check, or rot but it is lighter and softer than the wood. I also told him that wood was capable of doing all those nasty things, but redwood was a good choice because of it's relative stability. I explained that the wood, also, was harder and stronger than the foam. I wasn't trying to discourage him or lose a sale but I did give him the pros and cons on both materials. He ended up choosing the redwood. I personally like to use both, depending on the application, but which substrate do you prefer?
------------------ Wayne Webb Webb Sign Studio,Inc. Blastin' "woodesigns" in Chipley, FL "autograph your work with excellence" webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com
Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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There is nothing nicer than carving a redwood sign that has a fine very close grain. The foam is the right choice for large three dimentional graphics. As far as one opposed to the other, I find the foam is quicker to carve, but annoying the way the dust sticks to everything. Finishing, redwood is much easier. A redwood sign finished natural is beautiful. Bill Riedel
------------------ Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. Little Ferry, NJ billsr@riedelsignco.com
Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I sandblasted a mountain of redwood when I had New City Signs in St. Pete., FL. I'd turn my nose up at cedar, and foam wasn't even available then. Redwood ruled for its stability, blasting texture, grain and great selection.
These days I'm located on Cape Cod where sandblasting is unknown and unloved. Carving is the order of the day in this region. Redwood has virtually disappeared as a viable substrate because of it high cost and lack of availability & selection. You pays through the nose and takes what they sends ya. In other regions like the west coast it may be more available but in New England we lean toward other products.
When I look back over major projects Cape Craft has built over the last two years the unchallenged leader in substrates is HDU foam. It has a 10 to 1 lead over wood. But then again, we don't do any blasting where redwood shines.
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I just wrote an in-depth response only to have it vanish when I hit submit.
Given the poor quality and availability of redwood these days, it becomes less and less of an option. I rarely give a client a choice of materials in a dimensional sign. Most clients have neither the experience or the resources to make an informed decision on materials; their decisions are thus limited to design, colors, etc., and in general they seem to appreciate having confidence that I will choose materials most appropriate for their sign, taking into account how and where it is installed and what conditions it will be exposed to. Clients expect us to be the experts - that's what they pay us for.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I give people a choice, too. But I don't offer HDU and wood as equals. I present the foam as far superior, for these reasons:
Foam does not crack or warp. Since there is no grain movement, opening and closing, oil based paint doesn't check and peel like on wood. The foam doesn't retain moisture like wood does, so it doesn't later force its way out through oil based paint (this is a blister).
In addition, I can make foam look like redwood or like marble. In either case, the look is realistic.
When I press people (customers), they will often admit that the only real reason they want redwood is "just the idea that it's wood." It's the same reason at work when people reject aluminum leaf because "it's not real silver." I'm not saying this is wrong or silly. Heavens no. Advertising relies heavily on emotion. Emotion goes into it. In turn, it must appeal to emotion. We're in the business of pushing people's buttons. It's just that I have forced myself to think in purely practical terms on this issue. And I might add that if I were not in the habit of painting redwood signs so that it's hard to tell they're wood, I might not have come around to foam quite so quickly.
But the unpredictable results associated with redwood signage, and the sometimes high maintenance involved, have swayed me in favor of HDU. This is not to mention the labor intensive fabrication of a wood slab. Or the ease and predictability of tooling & blasting foam. I also like being able to paint HDU with car paint.
I do not refuse to make a redwood sign. No way, mama. For good money, I will make a sign out of anything nature provides if I can stand the smell. But on dimensional stuff, I weight my sales pitch in favor of HDU. For example, instead of telling someone wood is stronger, I tell them HDU (I don't say "foam" to a customer) is just as strong if installed properly. And really, it is. It's a heck of a lot stronger than Dryvit finish, which is used on public buildings, or Plexiglas, which is at the mercy of anyone armed with a rock or a beer bottle, or even 23 carat gold that's only 200 millionths of an inch thick and easily ruined by a car key.
I think it's worth mentioning that even though redwood is a natural resource, HDU is made from petroleum, isn't it? So from an ecological standpoint, isn't it a question of which resource you are going to protect? There may be an argument that redwoods only take a few centuries to replace, compared to millennia for crude oil, natural gas and coal.
Still, these are only my opinions. Or, to quote Sandy Ferguson, "I may change my mind at any time without notice or justification, for reasons of my own choosing."
Brad in Arkansas Save a redwood; use up the oil
------------------ Brad Ferguson 4782 West Highway 22 Paris AR 72855 501-963-2642 signbrad@cswnet.com
Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hello, Ya know, I run the Art Dept. at an amusement park in Wash. state. We have both kinds of signs. I've noticed that when signs get hit or bumped by the company trucks, it's really no contest. Redwood can much easier take a hit by a truck better that a foam sign.
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I'mm just an old stick in the mud I guess,I can't see my way passed the cost of foam for what it takes to manufacture it and I just LOVE redwood...I have never had any surprises or had to worry about the end result with redwood.As long as it is available I will use it and it alone.My customers get no choices either if they want foam they can walk across the street and use our neigboring sign shop (they love foam).Well to each his own...
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
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I have spoken to a number of people who say HDU is too expensive... compared to what? My material costs in a carved sign rarely exceed 10% of the selling price, less if I am on the ball with pricing. Given the time savings involved with HDU, I can't see why I'd want to use wood anymore. I carved an HDU sign last summer and timed myself. It was a Saturday, no phone calls, no interruptions, seventy-three letters, from start to finish, three and one half hours. Wood would take three times that. Think that made up for the price difference?
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thank You too, Bernice, and to everyone else for all the replies. Though I've been making wood signs for about 15 years, I'm still learning. There is such a wealth of knowledge among all the folks participating in this forum. Everyone is such a big help.
------------------ Wayne Webb Webb Sign Studio,Inc. Blastin' "woodesigns" in Chipley, FL "autograph your work with excellence" webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com
Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Call me nuts Cam ,I just have trouble justifying the coast of the sign foam when i know for fact there isn't 10 dollars of chemical products in a whole billet.
I know this is an absurd point of veiw but it's one I'm stuck with(I'm old you know) .I believe it is a viable product ,don't get me wrong and maybe if it were half the cost it is, I would look at it in a fairer light.
And besides I just like redwood and can't believe the dust from it is nearly as bad for you as the other,but then I could be wrong...by the way are you goin to Manchester? Drop me an e-mail------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
[This message has been edited by Monte Jumper (edited February 03, 2000).]
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Monte, no offense, but I don't see your reasoning about HDU. Like anything else, it is worth what is paid for it. Is a $1000 sign difficult to justify because it only has $20 worth of material in it? By that standard redwood should bother you even more, as the tree grows for free, so to speak. How about gold leaf? It sells for $300 a pack, which contains about 1/100 of an ounce by weight. Sure, it would be great if HDU were half the cost, but that's a pointless argument. Like anything, it sells at the price the market will bear. As long as it's value as a material outweighs its cost, it will be used. Most of the Canadian shops I talk to still use wood instead of foam, for that reason.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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im a little more partial to the redwood (sometimes, carving foam is just too damn easy) I like to use foam for small house signs like house numbers, that sort of thing anything big, i stick to redwood.. Question to other redwood users: Does the redwood dust make your noses bleed? i get it something awful after these signs hang out in the shop a few days and when I blow my nose, it looks all tie died and groovy yek!
-James Tirico designsigns@msn.com Montclair, NJ USA
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Posts: 8 | From: Montclair, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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