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Been working on replacing a double sided pan face sign and I took measurements off the original a while back. I had them molded and got them in applied graphics and it was off to install. This was my first so I wanted it to be right. Took the old one out and slid the new one in and I started to realize that it was almost all the way in and I still had almost 2 feet sticking out! Man, what a disaster. I re-measured the old one and it was 119 1/2". My new one was 141 1/2".
I don't know for the lfe of me how that happened. When I measured the original, I slid the face out a little to get a measurement, then I looked at the tape, wrote the figure down and looked at it again. I had a friend helping me, he was holding the other end of the tape, I'm wondering now if he was hooking the tape on the face or the cabinet, if it was the cabinet, that would bring the measurement to around 141".
The face supplier opens on monday, but I talked to someone from another company to ask if it is possible to reform it to cut the length, he was'nt sure.
Another option I'm thinking if all else fails is to extend the cabinet itself, but the bulbs are 120" and there would be a gap of lighting on the ends, or find longer bulbs and move the light fixture recepticals to the ends.
It's just a flat pan face with translucent vinyl, the guy told me I may be able to heat with a torch to reform it myself.
What would you do? (besides freak out)
[ November 23, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Tony B ]
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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I hate to say it, but I think you are going to have to chalk that one up to experience! Get accurate measurements and have new faces formed. There's an old proverb in the carpentry trade, "Measure twice and cut once." Getting longer lamps won't work unless the ballasts are changed also. Good luck!!
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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One other thing you might think about, the people who provided the new faces may have gotten your order mixed up with someone else's. There may be another guy frustrated because his new faces are a bit too short. It worth checking into.
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Roy, By actually stretching the cabinet, I would be moving the end wall that holds the ballasts, so that's why I was thinking that would work. But then I bet it would be a nightmare to get the bulbs just the right size.
I trying to make this adventure the least costly as possible, getting new faces (they ran me $429.00 each) I would of corse lose all profit and may have to dig into my pocket before this whole thing is finished. The good thing is the new ones should be cheaper, they're shorter!
I wonder if I could go with just a flat face (no extrusion at all? I have heard of hot spots, but a flat face would save me some dough. Anything I could do to go this route and not have the hot spots?
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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If by hot spots you mean the presence of bulb lines showing through when lit, I doubt you can avoid this if the cabinet is too narrow. I don't know exactly how deep it needs to be, but I believe at least 10 to 12". Don't make the mistake of making the incorrect faces to cover another mistake. Boy, I know the temptation but it will come back to haunt you.
Good Luck Tony.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2787 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Yes, I was referring to the bulbs showing when lit. I just went and measured the depth of the cabinet and it's 17". I hope this idea of a flat face would work. Any expert advice?
Thanks for the replies.
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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You will be fine with a 17" cabinet aS LONG AS THE BULBS ARE 6" FROM THE FACE AND 8" APART FROM EACH OTHER.
Extending the end is a possibility if you know how...and then run lamps vertical to offset lighting embalance.
As for the pan face you have, I really doubt that it could be trimmed to fit and still look right!
The above are the only choices I have...just make sure you have a thick enough sheet of acrylic, that won't bow in and out...I am just not sure of the height is why I mention that
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1033 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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My opinion(and that's all it is) it would be cheaper to replace the faces than to extend the cabinet properly.
As far as flat faces, I have always been told that 8" to the center of the bulb would cause "hot spots". With a 17" cabinet, you are looking at 8.5" if the bulbs are centered.
Personally, I would bite the bullet, do it right, and order new faces, then have some really cool wall decorations to remind me to measure correctly the next time. It may wind up costing you a little money, but not near as much as an unhappy customer will.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2318 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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Robert, you know the idea of running the bulbs vertically just might be the ticket. It would'nt be that hard to extend the ends of the cabinet All I would have to do is unbolt the sheeting, make 4 cuts ,weld the extentions, fill the gap with new sheeting, put in the new vertical bulb fixtures and that would be it. I have a friend who is a welder who could do it. (I weld myself but I'll let him do it)
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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Did u make suer yer tape was level and straight when u measured?
Even a small bend will ad inches.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Tony, Order the new pans and do it right; it will pay off in the long run if you are in business for the right reason. Take the mis-sized pans back to your shop and remove the graphics now while it is still relatively easy. Try recouping at least some of your cost by selling a cabinet the size that will take those faces; or...the pans can be used on a wall or a free-standing sign with new vinyl graphics. Fasten through the flange and then apply trim over the flange. I think you will find that it will look pretty good and should last a long time, too. Marvin Meteer Main street Sign Company
-------------------- Marvin Meteer MAIN STREET SIGN COMPANY P.O. 274 Wyalusing, PA 18853 "Just try'n to do what's right for everybody involved." Posts: 17 | From: Wyalusing, PA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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How about extending the cabinet on each end and put two vertical bulbs, one in each end and run them off a 2'lamp ballast? Leave all the present wiring the way it is.
Suggestion #2 would be to order new faces the correct size and put them in. Then order a sign cabinet to fit the odd size faces you have, and then you can hope for someone to come along needin one that size. Wire the new box vertically,since the length is an odd size.
One more thing...You better remeasure the sign cabinet one more time. The new faces should be 1/2-3/4 of an inch shorter that the actual length and height to allow for easy sliding and also for heat expansion.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Another thing to consider is that extending the cabinet may violate the maximum square footage of the municipality your customer is in. Also, since you are in a hurricane area, the extra size may cause the sign to be out of engineering specifications for wind load. The specs have a large safety margin built in so the sign probably would not be unsafe but, if out of specs, would be outside the law. You could be hanging an Albatross around the neck of both you and your client, creating a tremendous future problem.
On the other hand, the two lamp ballast idea is probably the best way to extend the size without having to rewire and relamp everything.
I recently spent $800 on a redo when the client's contractor broke a Granite face we fabricated. The face had cracked during the sandblasting process and we had seamlessly epoxied it back together, however, the installer over torqued the fasteners and broke it. I could have epoxied it again and touched it up but I purchased a new slab and replaced it. The customer was very grateful and the goodwill I bought was worth much more than the $800. I also cut up the remnant and have used the pieces as samples since it had various Gold leaf and paint fill finishes on it. The samples have sold more than the $800.
Eating your mistakes can be an expensive meal but it is fat free and there is no cholesterol. In the long run, it is usually a beneficial dinner to partake of.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5107 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I just got in touch with the client a while ago. I explained what happened and told her a few options I was thinking of. She was very understanding and I told her that it would be taken care of. (I threw in some door lettering on the job so that might help) I think I'll be taking the good advice on here and get new faces. I will ask the guy I got them from what can be done to see if he can fix it. (He's only 45 min away) It would be nice if he bought them back from me, probably not but would be nice, ya never know.
Right when this disaster happened, I knew I was in for a lesson, I got those when I was in the trucking business, only that one costs $10,000.00. I told my helper, yep I need something like this to happen early in my career, they make the best lessons. Can't get me down though, I do what I gotta and keep on truckin. You know what they say, **** happens.
Thanks All, Tony B (super oversized pan face sign salesman)
[ November 23, 2002, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Tony B ]
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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Glad to see you opted to replace the faces...I'm surprised no one mentioned checking your local sign code to see if you could even extend the existing sign (I'm assuming they have a sign code in your town)
If your getting what you should for this job you shouldn't lose any money (break even maybe).
One more thing when you call your supplier ask first what dimensions they believe you gave them...(could get lucky) no sense in throwing yourself under the bus until you know for sure it's your fault.
Oh and just so you don't get to thinking bad thoughts about yourself or your helper...I once worked with a sign salesman that measured a shadow on the ground (didn't want to climb a ladder in his suit...makes sense) and turned the diminsions in as fact for a $10,000. electrical retrofit sign... needless to say it didn't fit... and guess who ate that one (one commission after another til the sign was paid for).
All in all I'd say your getting off pretty easy...just call it lesson learned (I know you won't do it twice..trouble is even after you measure the next one you'll go back twice just to make sure...btdt
Good Luck!
[ November 23, 2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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There's no code where I'm from. (or none that would prohibit this) It's a small town, actually a village. I like the idea someone mentioned if I were to extend the ends about putting in 1 vertical bulb on each end. I could fabricate the end pieces myself beforehand and have my welder to come on site to join them. There would be no cutting at all, just adding the end pieces, then putting in the sockets and wiring the bulbs to the existing ballasts. I would be extending the cabinet 22"
I can't wait till monday when things are open. Then I can find things out. I'm just trying to weigh my options. You see if I have to buy new faces and vinyl, it's gonna kill me. I bid the job around $1,685.00. The faces were $450.00 each, vinyl around $212.00. So you see, I'd be coming out of pocket to fix this, that's why I'm thinking of other ways to go about it.
What would you guys charged? 5 x 10 x 3/8" w/ TL vinyl?
Thanks for the replies.
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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Been there. Your idea of using flat faces would very likely work. A 17 inch wide cabinet is plenty of difusion distance for the lamps. We can get .150 white polycarbonate for around $5 sq. ft. also weve had good results in using sta-tuf which is also avail in .150 thickness. One thing to take into consideration is the retainers, you may have to attach a few self-tapping screws thru the retainer...thru the panel and into the sub-frame. This is just for some added protection against panel blow out. I'd recommend driving around and finding some similar sized signs with flat faces...you'll find a bunch that have even less cabinet width and look fine. Finally, get a list of a dozen local sign companies that replace faces and let them know you have some nice blank pan faces for sale at a discount. Good Luck...you'll probably drive yourself crazy re-measuring, doubting yourself and remeasuring for awhile...been there too!
Also I would likely mark-up the faces 40% ($1500), then figure $8.50 a sq. ft. for the cut and applied translucent vinyl for the first side and 65% for the second side $701 and then $85/hr.for the installation.
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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I don't think blaming others is the way to go.You should have measured the box and not the face.You are in charge not your helper.Sorry but it had to be said.Only my Opinion.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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Hi Randy. I'm not blaming anyone, I'm just wondering how this happened. I never blamed the helper, just thought that while we had the face slid out about 2 feet that he had hooked it on the cabinet, that would make the measurement come to around 141". I thought I might have mis typed the dimensions, but I found my original measurements from the jobsite and they have the wrong measurement on it. I am taking the blame and this will cost me. I can tell you that in the future I may take the digital cameraa along to snap shots of the tape measure just to be sure!
Live & learn.
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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