posted
I have an D.F. 8'x30' housing adittion billboard to repaint (the original was mine).
It is half painted graphics and half vinyl lettering.
I have done repaints in the past over vinyl and all is well for the first year or two then the back ground paint starts to lift (only where the individual vinyl lettrs exist).
The obvious solution to this is to remove the vinyl letters (not going to happen)another could be to do an overlay (haven't ruled that out).
My question is...could the vinyl be rolled with "Ticote" (allow for cure time) then coat out over the top? Another thought was to precoat with "X.I.M. then coat out.
Has anyone else here encountered this problem before ? How did you solve it? What were the end results?
hmmm?
[ November 16, 2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Hi Monty, I consider it a mistake not to remove the existing vinyl lettering, when you paint over them there will always be an outline of the existing lettering which can be seen. My advice would be to do an overlay.
-------------------- Brian the Brush brian the brush uk Yorkshire, UK www.brianthebrushuk.com Posts: 123 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Monte- One Shot makes a vinyl primer that is perfect for this app. I've been using it for years to prep vinyl for airbrush fades with One Shot Lettering Enamel and the stuff holds like a pit bull. For me, the 'edges' that Brian mentions would be a problem on any type of job except a billboard- it's just not an issue from fifty feet at 40 mph. I've only done one billboard with it and the paint still looks fine 8 years later- one coat of primer and two coats of One Shot Bulletin Color.
good luck!
-------------------- Jay Nichols ALPHABET SOUP
~the large print giveth and the small print taketh away~ Posts: 176 | From: SW Florida | Registered: Mar 2002
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I am right now having to deal with a comeback over this very issue. Customer wanted to use old boards, couldn't turn them over so opted to paint over old vinyl. (It was baked on from the sun and very hard to remove).Customer wanted to save a few bucks...and I went along with it.( I recommended new panels)
So I ty-coat over the vinyl and repaint with one shot. Now two years later its peeling where the vinyl was. It looks to me like the paint held to the vinyl OK, but that the adhesive just disintegrated. The flakes that are coming off are VERY loose.
I have sworn never to paint over vinyl again in that kind of repaint situation. Will only do new boards from now on. I don't think you could remove the vinyl when its real old like that for less than what it would cost to just replace them.
If you get forced into painting over old stuff like that I would get it in writing that you cannot guarranty how long it will last.
Well anyhow...thats my experience so far.....
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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it would seem to me that if they have enough money to be building a SECOND housing division, then they really ought to be able to pop for the cost of the panels to cover over the old stuff. i mean, how far should one go to try and save a few bucks?
(i know, not really an answer, just my rant for the morning)
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Isn't it amusing how a client wants to save some money, basically bullies you into doing something you didn't recommend them doing in the first place, and then have the nerve to come back TWO years later and beef to you because what you said was going to happen happened. To top it off, they probably want you to do and repair or replacing at your expense...
Stand firm, brother. Tell them to do it right this time or live with it. Just my 2.4 cents worth...
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6465 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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You know what I tell the bullies? I tell them that it will cost twice as much to go that route, as it would by buying quality substrate to start fresh. (peeling vinyl or painting over it I tell them is at Least twice). They seem to start listening, simple as that.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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Hey guys don't turn this into a bash the customer post...They're not the culprit...the facts are the dura ply material is not old enough to consider throwing it out...yet the vinyl is "fried" on there and frankly I don't care a thing in the world about spending one minute of my life removing vinyl especially while standing outside on a ladder and plank rigging.(just not my idea of a good time).
As has been pointed out in an earlier reply the "ridges" of the vinyl letters are of no concern (distance from the road)I'm just looking for a legit method for coating this thing out.
If one exists I'm still interestd!!!
So far two reply posts have tried the the same thing (one reports pleasure with the fact that after 8 years it still looks good (Jay)...the other says after 2 years it all failed because of adhesive problems (Jeff).
With such different results it's difficult to make any kind of decision on which way to go.
In other words I'd like to hear more on this subject...I know now I'm not the only guy to encounter it.
[ November 16, 2002, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
In my case the offending side of the sign was the south facing side. The north side is OK. But I feel adhesive failure will occur at some point, no matter how good the paint is stuck to the vinyl.How long before that happens, who knows?..depends on conditions. Direct sun seems to hasten the results, though.......
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Monte I have several billboards at the track like this. At one time or another vinyl for whatever reason was opted instead of paint and then painted over with a new ad.Sooner or later no matter how ya treat the vinyl lettering it will start to peel up in a manner from the layer of paint it was applied to. Another layer of paint will not seal the vinyl layer down once it starts to peel.
If the ad you are doing is only for say 12 months you will be ok if the vinyl underneath is less than it's intended lifespan. But no way once it starts to peel can you seal it down,...its going to curl up sooner or later. I've made it a point to tell my clients that this is the probable outcome unless the vinyl is removed and most times they don't want to justify the initial cost but they always want to complain when the inevitable occurs. Either way the end result is going to be eaier to deal with an "I told you so" than excuses down the road.Odds are the client will not understand and place the blame on you in the end unless you warn them and charge extra to remove the vinyl.
Incidently the vinyl I speak of was the highest quality vinyl as I worked for the original shop that installed it in the first place when it was originally done and the backgrounds were sprayed with centari.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Timi brought up a valid point - do you know what grade of vinyl you are coating over? I would think that makes a difference.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I would go with the overlay. It has been my experience that vinyl expands and contracts at different rates than ANY substrate. This is usually not noticable, until you lock it in with a coat of paint. All that pushing and pulling with no place to go finally causes the paint to crack, and the vinyl to curl.
If it is temporary, you should be OK, but then I have some "temporary" signs out there that are over 10 years old.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2316 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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Since I was the one that did the job originally, the vinyl is all H/P (wouldn't use anything else).Also since I'm not one that likes to re-do things and since I hate overlays I have opted for removing the old faces and replacing it with new.
I'll put the bid together in the morning...we'll see where it goes!
Thanx again!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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