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I recently started to work in a small town sign-shop together with my wife. I have been working with web design since 5 years ago overseas and kind of slipped into sign making when we the shop owner offered us to buy the business. I’m trying to learn as much as I can about sign making and this forum has been a great help! We live in a small town with two sign-shops (including ours) and my question today is: Do you actually go out and try to get more jobs or do you wait for the jobs to come to you? I’m afraid that if we sit around at the shop waiting for more jobs then we won’t be doing this much longer. I just love this work and I’m really trying hard to make this work. We would appreciate any comments about this…
Thanks David
-------------------- David Nyman Nyman Signs 100 South 8th Street Escanaba, MI 49829 Posts: 80 | From: Escanaba, Michigan USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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Well; yes - if your not busy you should by all means go out & pursue work - check out who the larger Real Estate agents are around you - look around your territory for signs that need re-furbishing - call on them. Most of your larger sign companies bypass that type of work. There's plenty of work out there, believe me. Word of mouth is extremely important. Always keep your appointments; give good service; you will succeed.......a few samples of your work to show around to potential customers wouldn't hurt........Carl
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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Lately I haven't even been waiting for the jobs to come. They have been coming before I am ready for them. But, that is after 15 years of chasing down leads, treating my customers like friends, making sure they receive a quality product, making sure they are HAPPY with the product as well as the service, etc...
One thing I have done is to drive around town, looking for signs starting to show wear. I would come back to the shop, figure a bid, and usually a new design, then just walk into the business, ask for the owner, and present it to them. After completing the sign, I would stop back in after about 6 months just to see if they were still HAPPY. By this time they are normally ready to order something else.
Best of luck to you.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2317 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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I had a job yesterday that should have taken about 30 minutes to install. Simple lettering and scrollwork/linework on a glass door with "etchlook" vinyl. As I said, should have taken 30 minutes or less... This was at a local insurance office.
OK, back up to last Friday when the owner of the agency came in to my shop to discuss having his window lettered. He told me what he wanted, gave me a copy of his logo and I told him that I would go to the office to measure up the door, make him a quick sketch and shoot him a price.
As our conversation was coming to an end, he jumped in with "Since I'm here, I should tell you that our office could write up a competitive policy to what you have now" - he went on to tell me that my type of business was considered "low" risk and several thousands of dollars of insurance could be very affordable. This only took a minute or so to throw out that information, but this guy is doing the fishing thing like it is second nature. When I was lettering the door, another agent decided to discuss insurance with me, making the job last a little longer than I had planned.
The thing is this: These guys are successful because they go after sales. This is the same thing we need to do in our business. Go to any sales seminar and you will learn that you must always ASK for the sale. I used to cringe at the thought that I would have to resort to tactics used by used car salesmen and inurance agents, but you have to do something to boost your business.
What a problem for some of us in the sign business. Many of us are skilled in our craft or crafts, but not very skilled in communicating with people. Some are living the reclusive, temperamental withdrawn life of an artist who is offended by those that can not appreciate the amount of ourselves that we put into our work. We suffer because we can't seem to switch into the outgoing extroverted personality of the SALESMAN.
The advice above is good, following up and being punctual is what you must do. Don't kill yourself though. If someone comes to you with a project that needs to be designed, give a realistic time frame in which to accomplish this. The customer's time table may be different than yours, but somehow you will arrive at a compromise and get the job done.
Word of mouth is great. Your ability to promote yourself in conversation is a very affordable method of advertising. If you can develop your skills in knowing when and when not to do this you will increase your success. You can print your own business flyers, open your local phone book and TARGET the types of businesses that you would like to work for. On direct mailings, they say that if you get a 2% response you have success... now convert that 2% to sales with follow-ups and salesmanship. I send out flyers once each year. I choose new businesses and also send to the ones that I had responses from previously. In my mailing at the beginning of 2001, I have received an 11% response and all were sales. Several of those businesses are now repeat customers with large projects. Many of these customers SPREAD the word by mouth or by parking their newly lettered vehicle at a job site with other contractors.
MOST of the work we do walks in the door or calls us. I am advertising more this year than I ever have before (NOT THE YELLOWPAGES) and that has seemed to be a good thing as well.
Promote yourself. I can't tell you how many people tell me that they never knew what I did, or they never knew I was here, or that they are glad that I'm here.... How are they going to know who you are or what you do if YOU don't tell anyone?
Reading this over, I thought of my wife who can take the worst situation ever and look at the bright side of it. For example, I could accidently gouge out my eyes today and she would tell me how much money I will save on eyeglasses or contacts in the future, making me wonder why I had not gouged out my eyes years ago. You get the idea.
So, here's my way of looking at this to see if you can sell yourself. Do you like what you do? Are you any good at it? Does it make you proud of yourself? Are you helping others with your work? Are you helping a business to increase their profitability? Are you saving lives by directing people how to enter or exit a parking lot? Does it make you feel good when you have completed a job for a customer and that customer thinks you are some kind of god? Does the excitement that they express make you feel like you have achieved anything? Anything GOOD? SURE IT DOES. Why can't you tell other people about this?
You are going to take money for this. The insurance man is going to take your money too. You are going to pay for something that you hope you will never use. You are ticked because you have to spend and spend and spend for this service and you don't want to see anything for your money spent. On the other hand, you are too afraid to NOT have it, and probably required by law. Won't you feel better promoting signs? Won't you feel better selling something that will put money in your customer's pocket? Now he will be better able to afford his insurance because of all of the money he is making because of the sign that you made for him.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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Welcome to Letterville, David. I'm in a small town like you, and my advice would be to try your best to make sure you get some good repeat customers. You can't live off the guy who needs one sign every ten years. Get your foot in the door with the construction and trucking companies and wherever there is potential to do multiple jobs. Make sure you tell them that you can do all these jobs, sometimes people are funny, you do a sign for them and they "never thought of" that you could be doing their vehicles also. You have to educate them as to what you can do. Best of luck to you and your wife. Oh, and have fun!
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Hey David, small town politics being what they are, sometimes it seems like everybody will already know that you make signs, and some people (the other sign shops, for instance) will feel like you're treading on their territory.
the truth is that a bit of competition probably helps everybody. i've also found that there is more demand for quality sign work than there is a supply -- even in a "big" city (i'm in San Francisco).
you might start by just introducing yourself to folks. let them know you're here, who you are, where you're from, etc. that's just "being polite".
you might also find out what kinds of work the other two shops do, and see if there's an area of sign making that you're interested in that they aren't good at. maybe its painted signs, carved signs, or neon. Or maybe its a customer type -- they're serving the businesses in town, and you can serve the outlying areas. there's always a profitable niche to go after that nobody else has. (the trick is to find the niche you WANT rather than getting known for doing stuff you don't like).
and, if it hasn't already been said, don't try to get work by having low prices -- it will hurt you and the rest of the sign makers. since you're coming at this from a web design background, i'm sure you can offer some design services that the other shops can't (or don't). play to your strenghts.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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By all means, get out there and make your presence known!
One mistake it seems most people make is throwing money at a problem then wonder why they don't get many bites or sales, ie: brochures and direct mail. Spend $300 on 1000 brochures, $200 to mail those brochures to the locals, to get 20 bites? No thanks!
You don't have to spend a single dime for advertisements, mailers and all that jaz.
You do want some business cards though cause you're going to hand one to every person you run into. *THIS* is marketing.
I wouldn't even waste the time to find failing signs, create sketches and prepare bids then drop in dead-cold on businesses you don't even know. If someone did this to me (if I had a storefront) I would think it pretty dang ballsy of them to take it upon themselves to not only decide I should need a new sign, but to come in with sketches and price quotes.
If you're going to burn the time to drive around finding old signs, you may as well just drop in and introduce yourself right then and there and toss out a business card. Since you are taking over an existing sign business, it's the perfect opportunity to let them know that "Such and Such Sign Company" is under new ownership and can offer some additional services.
Don't be a hermit, just visit the businesses surrounding the shop, not to make sales but to introduce yourself and shoot the bull with people.. and of course to hand out some biz cards. Many times you catch them at the right time and will pick up all kinds of work.
You can even offer to trade business cards, you'll put a stack of *their* cards on your counter, if *they* put a stack of your cards on their counter. Hit up the local retail stores for this one. If your small town is anything like mine, EVERYBODY owns their own business so all those retail customers are potential sign customers.
It's all about the "Piggyback", forming "alliances and allies" that will put you into a business circle and bring more work as long as you return the favor.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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On direct mailing. Being the cheap son-of-a-gun that I am, I printed my own mailers. I designed them too. I did not spend a pile of money on brochures and the like. The way I look at this is that YOU are a creative person in this business. You have to take some rough idea from a customer and turn it into a potential money making tool for their business. Why aren't you doing this for your business?
Targeting your customer is a creative process as well. Pick up your yellow pages or better yet, pick up the local weekly paper and look at the people who are advertising every week. Pick out the types of businesses that you want to work for,like trucking companies, real estate offices, contractors...................these people are spending money on advertising and will become repeat business for you. Mail THESE people a flyer. You don't need to spend a plie of money to do this. Do this in your spare time or down time if you have any. Make that time productive.
Being creative or cunning or selective with your advertising is not the key, it is ONE of the keys to your marketing program. Yeah, you have a marketing program. Or you should.
Become a bull artist and sell yourself.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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Small town here, same situation. My advice? Differentiate yourself. Be above and beyond, be unusual, be classy, be cool, but above all be professional. I am still working on this, and all it entails, but probably the number one thing is dependability.
Customers may forgive you for a mediocre design, but not backing up what you say? Fergit it.
Be on time, and deliver the goods. Practice design and make it a point to make every sign you produce better than it has to be. Sign your work.
Ask for endorsements from your clients. Make a GOOD sign and brochure for yourself. Have an impressive selection of samples and a clean showroom.
HECK, I don't even have all this goin' yet myself, and I have been at it since 94, but I DO believe it is a formula for success.
Now that you have heard the typical, I am going to throw a big curve into the mix!
Yes, we have brochures, mouse pads, calculators, and even shirts to give to our clients...
but none of that was used to get us where we are today!...we use those items to keep us where we are!
We don't walk in to any business, I am an absolute hermit and I darn near have to know that the job is mine before I will go to a clients address.
Now...you might be saying...wow...this guy is crazy...ok...call me crazy...many do..but I can say that the below method is working for me!
I take the quiet approach...I fill my studio with all kinds of fun stuff and look for ways to get attention!...Find some artistic, fun, crazy media to learn(LETTERHEAD MEET) that can be used in your business and take it to a new level!...make these and stick them in your window!...
Heck..I am in a building with NO retail sales on a dead end road and I just put out some really crazy signs up front (against city ordinance) that I can call art...why...FUN!...It sure creates a buzz from those looking!
I was asked last night how I can put in all of the hours that I do...and my answer?...cuz I LOVE IT!...beats bouncin a ball around on a course!...I would rather take a piece of wood or clay and set up in a park and sculpt. And if anyone has heard the ole Alton Gillespie trick....attach a one shot can to your fender!...boy will that get attention!
We are planning to open a retail location this next year and my goal is to make sure that it's not for Joe Nobody who wants pricing on vinyl lettering cheaper than the other 62 sign shops in the area!...It's going to visually say...don't enter without a lot of money!...How am I going to do it?....By visually showcasing all of the talents that we have and puttin on a show! There is no better way out there than that!
SO!...stick something UNIQUE...CRAZY...FUN in the window every COUPLE OF MONTHS and you will have all the work you need!\
OH...did I add that I started in a house and did very little signs without a tutor or mentor and never worked for anyone before?...BUT I LOVED BEING CREATIVE!
[ November 12, 2002, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Robert Beverly ]
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1033 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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well i can only speak from my experiences...and this is what i've learned in the last 9 1/2 years living in small valley with 2 other sign shops.
producing a quality product should be your priority...with that of course is great service.
being flexible will go a long way..i'm not saying let your customers walk all over you...but i never have a problem lettering a vehicle in the early evening or on a weekend(with notice). if you have a customer that gives you alot of business then try your best to accomodate them.
i have never nor will i ever try to willingly steal an account away from my competitor by low balling or bad mouthing. if i know my competition has that account i stay away(some may say that's crazy...but i sleep good)if the customer is unhappy they will call me...and they have...i have gotten and kept many accounts by being ethical, hard working and consistant(talent helps too). be consistant in your pricing too...because people talk. i letter tons of contractors and i pretty much charge the same for them all...providing the designs have the same number of colors and/or graphics. you can't charge one guy $200 and some other guy $250 for something similar a week later because you need the cash that week.
word of mouth is the best! if people like your work they may tell a friend...if you screw them over and do a crappy job they'll tell anyone that will listen. last but not least...have a good sense of humor.... i'm sure there's something else important i'm leaving out but i have to go!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Thanks a lot for all the response I got here. What a nice welcoming. This shop has been open since November last year and we started working there early summer. As far as advertising, I think that people still don’t know what we do. We try to spread the word as much as we can but I guess we need to go out and promote our self harder. My problem is that I would rather sit in front of my computer in a dark room with my headphones on while designing rather than being out talking to possible customers. Me and my wife love this work and its FUN going to work in the morning Some here suggest I need to go out and promote myself to other businesses in town, give out our business-cards, flyers etc? I’m sure I’m going to ask you tons of other questions later on. English is not my native language (Swedish) so I’m a bit scared of going out there talking about things I’m not sure about. What we do is vinyl - signs, banners, license plates etc, and we do not do wood-carving, painting and bigger jobs at this stage in the game but hope to get into this area as well. We got a lot to think about here. But we’re way too stubborn to give up
Question:
How do you all do your pricing? We have a chance of doing a semi-trailer where the vinyl itself will cost us approx. $400. It’s two sides + back, about 28'x 10’each side (except the back) and I’m guessing it will take us about 3 days to do this one. What would be a fair price for this? By the way, this semi-trailer job will lead to a fleet of 18 trucks to start. We want this job!
Thanks again for all your great answers and suggestions, we really appreciate the many helpful responses
-------------------- David Nyman Nyman Signs 100 South 8th Street Escanaba, MI 49829 Posts: 80 | From: Escanaba, Michigan USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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I use the Sign Contractors Pricing Guide. I use the full size version, which costs about $25. There are a lot of good reasons to use EstiMate software, but the pricing guide is printed and you can take it with you.
I take it with me when I meet a potential customer. I can flip the book open and they can see the prices. It takes the "mystery" out of price quoting, and lets my customers know that i'm not just pulling numbers out of the air. for the basic vinyl sign work you're describing, the pricing guide will get you 95% accuracy in estimating. when you've been at it a bit longer, you might want to then consider some estimating software.
for the semi trailer truck project you mentioned, the guide gives you suggested pricing for lettering on the truck doors, trailer sides, trailer back, cab front, and even the deflector on top. there are add-ons (such as reflective vinyl, etc).
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Thank you for your answer ScooterX, do you know where we can buy the "Sign Contractors Pricing Guide" as well? I bet it will be very useful:)
David Nyman
-------------------- David Nyman Nyman Signs 100 South 8th Street Escanaba, MI 49829 Posts: 80 | From: Escanaba, Michigan USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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What town in Michigan are you located in? I was born, raised and frequently go back to a small farming town in the thumb. I have friends and relatives across the state. Also there are several Michigan based sign shops that contribute to this site. Maybe one of them near you could be of assistance in pointing you to some good markets.
Very soon Michigan becomes snowmobile and ice fishing crazy. Telling the local snowmobile club about your ability to personalize their toys could be a good way to get to meet a cross section of the community. Be sure to let them know about the other types of signs you make. Some of these snowmobilers will be the contactors and real estate barons that others have mentioned as good markets.
As for that 28' trailer. We did a 28' back in August with a 6'x10' digital image on a Alumilite panel and bunch of cut vinyl text. The DI was designed by a graphics firm and inkjeted by another firm (to my specifications). Both of their bills went straight to the client and I don't know what it cost them. We built the layout, cut the vinyl in premium (some text had shadows), assembled the graphic on the Alumilite, bolted the Alumilite to the trailer, removed a little bit of old vinyl from the rear roll up door, and did a couple of revisions to the layout to accomodate changes that the cable TV/internet services provider wanted. All of the application work was done in bay at their location about 15 miles from our location. We had about $300 in vinyl and about 35 man hours into cut, weed, tape, make and install time. Probably another 15 manhours into selling, designing, coordinating, procuing, engineering, fabricating and patching up egos along with a few other things. Also went on a wild goose chase trying to have a bus advertising style frame made to hold the 6'x10' DI. We told the client upfront it wuld be $3500 for our part and held that price when we wrote the invoice. I would of liked to have charged a few hundred more to cover the changes and the wild goose chase but my wife overruled me. The client is a good long time client and we have done many trucks for them over the years along with all kinds of other jobs. In fact I am going to go see them tomorrow regarding a new image on their office building. Before you set your price on this job give a long hard look at how many rivets you are ging to have to burnish the vinyl over. We base our time estimates on 2 minutes a rivet to burnish in addition to the time to apply. This can add up to a lot of time if you have a couple hundred rivets to make look right. It is the reason why we chose to go with a Alumilite panel for the digital image.
It sounds like you hae a potentially good regular business prospect on the go here. Don't spoil the opportunity upfront by giving them a great price. He will only come to expect it on every other project. Instead set a price that you can make a decent profit on then do a little something extra when you get the job. They will remember the extra effort you put into the job when it comes time to dress up the fleet.
I look forward to your contributions to Letterville.
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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We’re from Escanaba in the UP. That trailer job you did sounds very interesting. Rivets… I never thought of that. Not even sure how to do that… Time to learn something new I guess:) We have been promoting ourselves better since last time I posted here and this forum has sure been a great help. Thanks.
-------------------- David Nyman Nyman Signs 100 South 8th Street Escanaba, MI 49829 Posts: 80 | From: Escanaba, Michigan USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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