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i've been doing more and more work with paint, and less and less with vinyl. well, i looked at the work i've been doing, and the kind of work i want to be doing, and realized that pouncing is my future. so i bought an electropounce (should be arriving tomorrow).
the next thing is to get a sheet of steel -- any suggestions? what guage or finish or whateve do i need to ask for? (i'm sort of at a loss when i cant get it through my sign supplier).
my assistant is going to be really happy -- he's the one that's been doing most of the pouncing (with a wheel). i've already warned him to not use the steel rulers. any other tips or tricks we should know?
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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An electro`pounce works using an electric charge. Negitive wire attached to the sheet metal, and the other end, the positive end, has a pencil like probe, which arcs through the paper creating the perferations by burning small holes.
Never touch the probe tip. You'll get shocked. The shock isn't all that bad, but it's enough to; not let it happen again.
Very good tool to have, if you do alot of hand painting.
About the sheet metal. Almost any size will do. You'll have to adhear it to some kind of backing, like; a wall, or a MDO panel. I don't know if a 4X8 is big enough. Three 4X8s standing up is a good size.(8X12)
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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A 4x8 steel sheet like the others said. Avoid heavy galvanized coatings, as the galv. will make the spark jump around too much...but other than that most any light gauge will work OK. The little tips can be sharpened once in a while and it keeps the pounce holes nice and neat.Its funny how you can touch the metal backing while your're pouncing and it won't shock you, but watch out for wet floor or wet shoes. If you create a ground path to your feet you will get shocked... sort of like grabbing a spark plug.
You never did say any more about your plotter...I gather it pounces but isn't working right on your system??
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I used to love the Electro Pounce, great for freehand, use like a pen. For the metal I used an ol'metal drafting desk cabinet, slight angle work top which was 3ft by 6 ft and had locked cabinet space beneath.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Scooter, Sheet metal works the best. My easel is made out of 10 ga. metal. A piece of metal window screen stretched over your drawing board will also work in a pinch. For work on rough walls, the screen actually works better, because it blows bigger holes in the paper. Be sure your ground wire is firmly attached or you'll wire yourself for sound.
-------------------- Jerry Mathel Retired Grants Pass, Oregon signs@grantspass.com Posts: 916 | From: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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A little more info on accidentally shocking yourself. We used to pounce on a metal rolling table. I rested my leg against the table leg, no problem until I touched the tip to my finger, got me on my finger and my leg. It won't do any permanent damage but while the tip is touching you it feels like you're being electrocuted. DO NOT use metal rulers to pounce a straight line, if you do you'll only do it once. Great tool though.
-------------------- Dennis Goddard
Gibsonton Fl Posts: 1050 | From: Tampa Fl USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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seen the same thing in a dermatoligist office...they use it to remove warts!!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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To avoid flaming, keep it moving. Did I scare ya? I did have a student start a flambe on some patterns she was pouncing,...she was staring at it like "a deer in headlights" until I came over and put it out. I use magnets to hold down my paper. Also I use a piece of plain butcher paper as a bottom layer and then my pattern on top of that and then proceed to pounce. I find that the spark is smaller and it gives me cleaner results. Oh yeah, keep away from the magnets too.
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I once heard of a bloke who had a hip replacement and when he got zapped the little steel bolts in his hip shot his leg up in the air. probably a bit like Viagra.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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All the above. I think my sheet metal is about 26 gauge "black iron". Galvanized will cause your spark to follow the lines of the pattern of the zinc coating - and I don't think stainless would work at all (?) I know magnets won't work on it. >> Be sure to ground it <<
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Scooter,...check with your local sheet metal suppliers and get a 4x10 or 4x8 sheet of paintlok. They only cost me about $20 here and they will work perfect if you have a wooden easel.Another tip is to use magnets to hold your patterns in place,a good source for these is any automotive stereo store as the young kids are always blowing speakers,and ya can rob the old ones off the blown speakers. Best advice I can give ya is to make very sure the pounce is grounded well to the metal backing and keep it clean,...no tape or paint so as to keep the arc straight when pouncing.Once you start using one you'll never want to go back to the old pounce wheels again.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A good Auto-Dimming welding helmet might be a good investment too, from the sounds of it, sounds like you might have images of small arcs burned into your eyes kinda like sun spots.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Another word of caution. Make sure that the wooden yard sticks do not have a build up of graphite along the edge - the spark will run along the graphite, especially on a humid day.
Also, after using it for several years the cord may get a short in it and generate little shocks right at the top of the handle. I just wrap it with a bunch of electrical tape and everything's fine.
If you put a layer of kraft paper under the pattern you are perforating it will create a larger hole.
Years ago I knew an old signman that always licked the end of his pencil before he started to draw....did the same thing with the electropounce. Not once but twice.
Those things won't kill you but they will scare you enough that whatever is in your hand will not be there long.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A got steel for my easle from a customer who's in the local sheetmetal workers union. You can probaly find the local union's number in the yellow pages. They'll know where to get it but they may not tell you unless you're in a union.
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yes, kraft paper under your pattern makes bigger(better) holes.
I worked in a shop once where, the new guy using the Elecro just "happened" to use it with the ground wire detachhed, OUTCH!!!
CAUTION... if you've traced a patern off of something, using solvent to make the paper translucent, let it dry REAL WELL before using electro.
and, to "kingize" things, it should be called an Electroperf......
John Lennig / SignRider
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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If you use a pencil for layouts and you're heavy handed like me, DO NOT rest your free hand on any pencil lines. Not quite the zapp as when you knock the ground wire loose ( and from looking at the above posts I can see I'm not the only one to experience that one ) but it still gets your attention.
When I had my shop it was two doors down from a tattoo parlor. It was a hangout of sorts for a lot of bikers, and I'm talking real bikers here not the "wannabees" that are so prevelent nowadays. They would often stop in my place to shoot the s**t or see what I was working on. One day a couple of them saw me using the electro pounce. Once they found out it could shock you a contest soon developed between them to see who could hold on to it the longest. Ya know, beer, boredom and testosterone is a dangerous combination. Of course, once they found out it was adjustable..well things just kept getting more interesting. And some people think the TV show "jackass" is a new concept!
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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I always wished there was more variable between the opposing ends of the rheostadt. Another thing that I wanted was to see the ElectroPounce creating less radio interferance. Man, the sounds that come through the speakers from a radio thats on are annoying. Listen to cd's and tapes while perforating patterns rather than KGO. Rubber floor mats are also nice.Oh, try to not stare too intensely at the white arc. Learn to keep your eye ahaed of the spark.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6716 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Scooter, Did you buy yours on Ebay? If so, if you don't mind me asking, what did you pay? I've got an electropounce, used very little along with a lot of other stuff to sell, some sign related some not. I've never tried ebay before, but I think I'm going to try listing the stuff on Ebay Canada. Has anyone done this before, and was it worth it? Happy pouncing... Cheers,
posted
Hey guys, I didn't expect so much response. (gee i was almost afraid somebody would tell me i should just experiment until i found what works... chuckle).
Timi -- i'll look for Paintlok -- but what is it? (i'm guessing enameled steel?).
I purchased it from the sign supply company in Portland (they had it listed for $230, which about $65 less than everybody else). i looked on ebay and there weren't any listed.
I've never bought sheet metal, but there's a sheet metal shop nearby, so i'm hoping they'll sell me a sheet and roll a channel in the top (an upside down "J"). My thinking is that the channel will stiffen the sheet and it will also allow me to hang the metal over a sheet of MDO for the easel. (i don't have enough shop space to leave it "up" all of the time).
I'll probably keep it 3' x 8' -- i only have 3' wide paper, so i don't see any advantage to a larger sheet.
i laughed out loud at the idea of THREE sheets of 4 x 8. i wish i had that kind of space. maybe when i move into a bigger shop.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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George, your note about the bikers reminded me of a story. When I worked in Phoenix a biker came in to get a tank lettered and saw my boss working with the electropounce. He said, hey man, could you do tatooing with that thing? My boss said "sure, if you can stand still enough" and put the wand in the guy's hand, and zapped the bejesus outta him. It's the only time I found anything funny about an electropounce.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Scooter it is about .042 sheet steel sandblasted and preprimed for paint.Most sheet metal and mechanical fabricators use it where the duct work is designated to be painted as it has a fine clear primer presprayed on it. This will not affect the electropounce tho,...Alot of the old inexpensive sign cabinets were made from the stuff before aluminum became popular.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Old geezers can keep the Electro Pounce around as a do-it-yourself defibrilator along with the first aid stuff. If you get feeling like your having the big one some day you can zap yourself back in rythem, and save on all those EMT calls.
Also read an article one time that claims this type of electric shock can neutralize poisonous snake venum. Supposedly they discovered this in the wilds of the Amazon jungle during an expedition when there was no medical help anywhere around, so they zapped the bite area with a wire from the coil of their jeep.Soon after the patient recovered. Oh yeah, I almost forgot..it will also light neon if you hold the tip on the electrode... I wonder if you could wire a unit to your pounce table just for the heck of it...'Got to depart from the norm once in a while, don't you think? A pounce table with fashing neon border glass...hmmm, maybe I ought to pack it up for the night, this is getting too far out there...
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Glad to see so much response to the electropounce...my favorite tool. I use sunglasses when pouncing to avoid burning out my eyeballs. And make sure you keep your hand behind the ridge on the pounce handle..it's there for a reason..
Good luck Bruce
-------------------- Bruce Deveau 331 Main St. Amesbury, Ma USA 01913 Posts: 139 | From: Amesbury, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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Scooter - I'd keep the most width I could get - don't cut it down the 3' just because that's the exact width of the paper - you're going to want to be able to move it around a lot, especially since you will be using a projector to cheat with. And since you are going to be able to use magnets - get some magnetic tool holders from Sporty's Tool Supply (I'll get the address after I do the Mike Search) and have them cut down with a power hack saw into smaller pieces - they will hold up banners, wood signs, etc. and you can manipulate the stuff all around to work with your projector and layout directly from anything on a page! For one-offs, no pattern necessary.
You may want some smaller magnets, too, for small paper projects - I use magbetic cabinet latches from a hardware store, and also small pieces of All-Mag - it doesn't get in the way pulling lines with a yardstick.
Also when you bring it home make sure you don't kink the metal. You'll have a ridge there forever like a guy in a Bob Parsons cartoon - you want it to stay smooth and flat. Also a good idea to never do any cutting against the metal as it will leave deep scratches in the surface that after a while will get in your way whan you need a smooth drawing board.
I've wondered about eye protection, too - you can't use a welder's helmet because you need to see small details drawn in pencil, etc. - but I used to wear polarized sunglasses. Gave it up, eventually, though - my eye doctor said it wouldn't do anything for me - my eyes aren't as good as they used to be but age and *ahem* maybe the couple times I played with myself when I was younger had something more to do with that than perforating...
[ November 12, 2002, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Mike Languein ]
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Oh Yeah,...another thing Scooter. For smaller copy I use a plastic angle like draftsmen use, but I have taped pennies under the corners to keep it raised up so I don't melt or nick the plastic. This tool allows you handily move around as opposed to a yardstick when doing small patterns.
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Scooter don't go spend 200.00 dollars on the sheet metal.All you have to do is go to an automotive shop and they have sheets of car metal for 20.00 dollars 3x8ft.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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At the first shop I worked in, I started a small fire by absent-mindedly setting a thinner soaked rag on the pounce table as I was pouncing a pattern. I learned real fast not to do that.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1051 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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For another couple of hundred dollars, you can buy one of those new fangled liquid crystal welding helmets that instantly darken when when exposed to intense light. I would sure try one first if you are inclined that way to see if the "shutter speed" on the helmet for both dark and light is sufficient.
I don't have an electropounce, however, I do have a neon tester, which I think is a second cousin by marriage.
One time, as we were installing a neon sign, we accidently stirred up a nest of ferocious fire ants. My foreman took the neon tester to the ants. While they scurried on the curb, the ants were the highest point around, by about a millimeter. As lightning seeks the shortest path to ground, so does a neon tester spark. Billy waved the tester over the pesky ants and hundreds of precisely accurate "smart sparks" ant-zapped the critters until Billy had exacted his revenge.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A lot of good advice you got here. I only have a few things to add.
When cleaning or changing the tip, make sure the unit is OFF.
If some time when you're really busy & pressed for time & have to pounce a lot of patterns, its possible to ground 2 units onto the same sheet of metal. That way 2 people can pounce at the same time. This actually works but you must be careful, especially when cleaning the tips. Make sure they're BOTH OFF. That was an experiment which was only done once.
If you pounce in a well lit area you shouldn't need shades.
Also if in an enclosed area, you might want to run an air cleaner to uncirculate the paper smoke.
Lastly, I don't doubt that it will light neon. Have you seen whats inside? Just look. Don't touch. The capacitor could still be holding a charge. ZZZAP!
Oh, one more thing. When you get your electro-pounce, there should be a pack of extra tips with it. When you put them away in some special place so you know where they are, try to remember where that is.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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i think this is the first time i ever posted such a popular topic. we should tell the electropounce people how popular they are.
and i'll try the auto shops to check about auto body steel. (do they still use steel in auto bodies?).
i'm guessing i'll fasten the steel flat to the wall -- it will be behind (and a bit above) the substrate scrap pile, so it wont be as likely to dinged as it would be if i have to pull it out and set it up. and i can "pin" (magnet) up posters when its not in use.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Speaking of the question of whether or not steel is being used in cars any more...
A while back, a younger apartment dwelling friend used my driveway and tools to work on his car. He found the floorboard was made of some kind of pressed fibers. He remarked: "What's wrong with the cars these days? Don't they build them out of plastic like they used to?"
Ahh, the generation gap...
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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someone once asked me if i could give them a tatoo with mine after seeing me use it.....boy i would have loved to make them jump with it...hehehehehehehehehehe
-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I use "fine" screen wire rolled over fiberous construction board. I can use push pins instead of magnets Roll up when NOT using as opposed to always having a (metal)drawing table in the way. Electricity is supplied by a low voltage BALLAST from Flourescent Light. Never ever got SHOCKED
Hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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