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Since the beginning of this site, my thoughts of Letterheads have been that, Letterheads are a crafty bunch, very simular if not the same as Pinheads. Exchanging ideas as well as experimenting on their own. I've been on this block a very long time, probably since its introduction and have found my above statement to have changed dramically. Persons seem to forget what exactly it is that they do, as well as why they have chosen this type of business to become part of. The idea of experimenting on their own has become a question-answer thing as if knowing exactly what the answer is from experience is immaterial, therefore knowledge means nothing, as long as the answer means the accomplishment of the project. Thats all that seems to matter, persons giving problem answers freely takes the place of apprendiceship, homework, reading a book or just using common sense is becoming a thing of the past. I say this because I am part of the brigade whose helped and freely given my knowledge here on the BB as well as on my website. And believe me, my website has helped more then just a handful become acquainted with tools and materials and the ability to learn.
I find that being a Letterhead or Pinhead has almost a sacred feeling. To actually be part of a movement where one shares as well as learns. I find it to be a dedicated thing where one must use their own brain and common sense to become part of it. Using ones common sense is acceptable when a job comes along, but to accept the project when the knowledge isn't there, figuring that the answers lie just a click away, on the BB, will give them what they need to complete the job while they still haven't a clue to what they did to get there.
Between paint, inks, vinyl. clearcoat, gold leaf, priming, sealing MDO and take your pick of any number of tools, brushes, plotters, printers, or any source of materials, books to learn from to the application fluids and prep solvents we all need to accomplish our daily task. One must ask, why does another take all this for granted as if the learning curve is so minimal, yet too easy to get into a jamb.
People used to think that any sign person can do pinstriping and vice-versa, but only recently has realized that either-or has a different feeling. Computerized signage may be the thing of the future, but only to those who can get past the present.
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Hey Joey...computerized signage isn't the 'thing of the future' Computerized signs ARE the present! Where ya been? Yeah I miss the old ways too....but there aint much you can do about it. I agree about the questions being asked making it too easy not to 'do it yourself' but hey......it is a fast and furious world we live in. shucks, I just drove to Tacoma to deliver some signs, and people were buzzing by at 80. sheesh.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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lets see what we got so far, a striper who don't stripe anymore and a woman who drives a turbo-charged all wheel drive Toyota complaining about 80mph driving speeds! hahahahahaha.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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CJ..You may not have a "plodder" or a "weedeater" but Shirl and I have a matching pair of hand engraved mag lites that we show off to anyone that will sit still long enough to look.
Keep up the good work CJ and when I find more people to buy gifts for I will be giving you a call. Hopefully yer still in the engraving business!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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Paint along with the use of vinyl has been a great way to keep things going on my end for the last 10 years (mostly vinyl). Even though this worked for me to keep the Nike's on my ever-growing son, I miss the handpainting that I used to do exclusively. I love to see the diehards, such as you, keep the craft going. There is just not enough to say about that, and the true spirit of the Letterhead sharing will keep on going for ages, I believe. I take a peek "out there" less than I should to see all the monster vinyl shops pop up. But, now, more than ever, I see vehicle lettering everyday, handpainted, of course, than I used to..and most tastefully done, mostly airbrush designs, or hand - stroked without mask. It is a true delight, to see more of it around town lately.AS far as my personal work with a brush, I am happier by far in my personal life than months of the vinyl grind. Hopefully, I will be set up soon to resume the craft and finally have the time to give some of my experiences to the younger set of teens. Some of my son's friends are extremely interested in having logos on their rec room walls and will want to have done it themselves and with a few basic lessons, they will get a taste of using a brush. This may sound like a meager effort (and maybe I can't dazzle them as much as a striping or airbrush job), but they will have enough on their plate to pull some brush lines, pounce a pattern and fill, and still keep their attention. I checked their art classes and found out they aren't taught lettering in the high school so this might be something they find enjoyable. They may not start with the brushstrokes in the beginning as we were taught, but to get their interest is what I am after in the beginning.
[ November 09, 2002, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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Hey JOey..... RED..+..TURBO......equals TROUBLE I sold my turbo a couple months ago.. Made too many people eat my dust. heh (now it would be making them eat my MUD and that isn't much fun) Rained buckets today.
I must say that I have asked and recieved "help" from this board. I Most certainly appreciate all the answers from those that chose to answer. It got me thru the problem. Having been around this gig for several years, I can see that experience IS the best teacher, however, we can never "know it all"...so we need to ask.
Letterhead means to me someone that has a genuine LOVE for this business....because when you love what you do...you do your best.
Now, there are people that want to get into this business and each person has thier own reasons. If they can keep excited long enough, they will learn. We can all remember back when we started...it was like "Man...I don't know **** about this...but I intend to learn!" And learn we did...only to realize that we are "still learning"
I have decided to take on an apprentise. It is time to pass on all the tricks that I have "learned" since I started. He is a "True Letterhead" in every since...all he needs is some fine tuning on the finer points of sign making and brushwork. He has been around signs all of his life...his dad was an old "sign dog" from Newhall, Calif. area...name is Army Trujillo. Some of you may know him...if you do tell him his boy is gonna be one of the best in a few years...I can see he has the "talent" All he wants to do is PAINT!!! Damn....ya gotta love that, heh?
I also have a young man from Concord, New Hampshire that I am teaching over the phone and E-mail. He is a "Vinyl Guy" that wants desperatly to learn how to improve on his designs. He is gonna be another one that absorbs every bit of information he can get and then go from there...and in a few more years you will see some great stuff from him.
Now...what do I get out of this?...I get the satisfaction that I gave a hand to someone starting out in this business. I had three people come into my life that freely gave of thier time and talents to show me the way. I promised them I would "give it away" when the time comes. It has come.
So....I think "Letterhead" is a state of bieng. You are, or you are not.
'sides, if you never ask...you never learn!
"good tokin to ya Joey"
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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Hi joey. Interesting post! I think that the real strength of the Letterhead movement is the willingness to share information, techniques, and ideas.That alone saves many from constantly having to re-invent the wheel, and the information is available for free. I also tend to agree with you, if I understand you correctly, that the free flow of information also contributes to folks not experimenting and finding their own solution to a particular issue or problem. When they don't have to apply any "creative genius" they get lazy and dependant, and as a result, there is far less "creative thinking" being applied.
I've always been open to new ways to tackle any problem, and I hope to keep an open enough mind so that I can continue to learn new things on a daily basis. Sometimes, a question by someone not familiar with a process or technique will set me to thinking whether or not there may be a better, faster, or more efficient way to accomplish the same thing. Before the widespread use of silk screening in sign shops, almost all the gold leaf jobs were done exclusively by hand....a very time-consuming process. After the introduction of silk screens into sign shops, some "genius" figured out that one could use this new "technology" to reverse print the outline and shade directly onto the glass, and thereby save lots of time, and also improve the quality of the finished design. Today, photographic silk screens are quite commonly used to produce some outstanding gold leaf work...and no one questions the validity of combining the techniques to achieve the end result. There are many other examples of "creative thinking" that have greatly aided and assisted sign folks. For example: Who first thought of using the sandblasting process to make signs, and how much of their hard-won knowledge has benefitted present day users?
I too find that there isn't too much of that kind of "original thinking" being applied to the everyday tasks that we all perform, and very little in the way of raw expermentation. Maybe your viewpoint has some merit. Perhaps the ready availability and free-flow of information has constipated the creative thought process to the point that we're seeing fewer "original ideas". What would you suggest?? Perhaps a steady diet of fibre and prune juice and just plain old-fashioned "doodling" might stimulate some into more "creative thought".
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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My "tag line" Professor of Signology reminds myself of having been to the school of(hardknocks) so long by way of trial and error. Than I am by now qualified to teach a course. Two(2)such examples are on this board NOW! Quills without handels Latex paint for lettering ie. I have learned how to hunt a squirrel,cook it for breakfast,wrap the hair around a "stick"from the tree I shot it from,and letter with it!!!!! Heck I have seen Robert Nouis pinstripe with a Popsicile stick IF latex paint was sooooooo good How come they don't paint cars with it? or the Government paint Tanks with it? Doesn't any one realize you can ADD powdered lead BACK into oil based paint? GEEZ you are right Joey The easy way out is faster,but doesn't get ingrained as deep! OR as I have heard...Give a man a fish and he can eat for that day. TEACH him how to fish and he can eat forever. This is a "Basic Laziness Issue" I admire anyone who will AT LEAST take the time and effort to get to a Live Letterhead meet in order to get some of these answers themselfs.
Off the soap box now hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Some of my early on Letterhead experiences entailed brainstorming possibilities with a few others absorbed in the craft to discover something new. We'd create means of testing to find what works. Experimentation happened when we got together and continued when we'd be alone in our shops. We'd share the results. This was far better than just providing conclusions.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Lot of great response from people who would know ... I can't remember the "old days" because I wasn't there ... so can't put practice into "old ways" (or different ways) without ever experiencing them. I love the way experiences fly around the leterheads ... makes you look at things in ways you wouldn't think to. The way people "build" "original" ideas based on others experience.
IMHO the "professional" isn't the one who can instantly do it perfect every time ... it's the person with the experience to know what to do when things F***-up. Being able to ask someone who has previously f'd up before you do it yourself is a wonderful thing.
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Pat. Have you checked out the other post on this board...the one showing some 70 examples of Gary Anderson's signs? I'd venture to guess that a goodly number of those were painted using the Latex paint that you seem so inclined to disparage. I'm thinking that here's an example of one who has done the necessary experimentation, and done the "due dilligence" to find out just how to make this medium work quite effectively in making his signs. I understand your appreciation and knowledge for using 1-Shot paints, and your preference for using them. What I find difficult to understand, is your reluctance to come to grips with the fact that possibly there might be ANOTHER WAY to accomplish the same task, but by using another type of paint. Perhaps by being a little more "open minded", you might acquire some new knowledge about the proper use of such paints, as it relates to the making of signs.
I think that Gary Anderson has proved to my satisfaction, that the Latex paints are indeed a viable option...his works out there do speak volumes, do they not?
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Joey, maybe i misunderstood the original post. if so, please correct me.
are you saying i shouldn't ask questions here because getting the answers are too easy?
i consider a lot of the questions that i ask to be pretty basic stuff. things i would have learned if i'd had the opportunity to apprentice under somebody else. some of the questions that i ask are ones that i think other people will learn from, too.
conversely, i have a pretty good handle on the "business" end of the sign trade. i try to offer my perspectives on sales, marketing, and legal issues when i see them posted here. should i hold back that information and allow people to make their own mistakes, rather than make it too easy for them?
i don't think there are many questions asked or answered on this forum that will save anybody from doing some experimentation. most of the time there are multiple "right" answers given, and its up to the individual to figure out which ones they want to try. if you apprentice with somebody, you'll learn it his way -- if you ask the question here, you'll find three or four ways, and you can find your own path.
i'd rather lift myself up on the shoulders of other people's experience, and THEN begin my experiments.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Ken, you're right. All of those signs by Gary Anderson were done with latex paints...and vinyl. And many of those signs are over five years old. He has to be doing something right.
And also, Pat, using your same reasoning...Why don't they paint houses with One-Shot?
[ November 09, 2002, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Seems like Bob has fiquired out what the people that MAKE the paint for. Is why the product is called what it is called! HOUSE PAINT.... Houses SIGN PAINT..... Signs TEXTILE PAINT... Textiles My so called reluctance to NOT use certain products for certain jobs,stems from the same reason they don't paint houses with One Shot. SIMPLE ECONOMICS!!!!!!! Gary Andersons GREAT looking signs is based on his superior design capabilities,rather than the paint used to accomplish the colorized portion of his work! Such as... it is NOT the brush,but the person using it. Same as Pool Sticks,Golf Clubs,Bowling Balls, Darts,or Rifels. I just can't justify the use of twice the storage space needed for water base paints. Twice the types and sizes of brushes. Twice the time to cover the painted area as needed I am NOT kicking and screaming into the new era of sign products to accomplish the desired effect of quality work! If some are satistfied with working straight out of the can(knowing the formula has changed)and are having trouble. The letterhead spirit in which Joey posted about will come full circle!! By the way Old Paint...Powdered lead can be purchased from West Marine Industries. Hope I haven't offened anyone here,and Hope this helps some others.
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Great post, Joey thought provoking replys as well! I think what you are witnessing is nothing more than human nature at work. there are those who take information(ie. knowledge)from here and copy it verbatum into a "how to" log and access it as needed. there are also those who take the same knowledge and use it as a starting point to push the boundaries of the craft. Rick Sacks alluded to it refering to the early brainstorming sessions he experienced. IMHO The BullBoard is not so much a resouce for "how to" as it is a cyber Brainstorming session! and the sharing comes in returning to the session to share the results of pushing the boundaries of our craft. The core is Creativity, no matter the starting point. IMHO
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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Someone here uses a quote that says ' Some Peoples Kids ' When actually its just some peoples kids that are on just about every BB on the net no matter what their age. If the answers are all just a click away, maybe thats why governments are cutting back on school funding.
I get a real kick out of the questions that are asked as well as the amount of persons that are entering the sign business daily. I've noticed if someone has a womens name, answers come quickly. Persons complain of the amount of signmakers ( a loose term ) in their town, only to realize that they themselves run a quicky sticky sign business and cannot always compete. It seems here on the BB, that in order to actually run a sucessful business, you must be educated in the body shop, building contractors, electrical, and at least have an architectural degree an a feel for color arrangements, oh, and a post hole diggers degree.
Geez, and to think all I use is a couple of brushes, 8 colors to start with, flow enhancer, a palette and my trusty Killerkart and I go out in style for 2 bucks a minute. hehehehe!
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Joey the reason some people's kids are on computers so much is because they grew up with them. At age 2 my son was sitting on my lap while I was making signs. He knows more about computers than anybody I know. He gets paid to help our neighbors with their computer problems. Kids are smart, they have always been smart, and the reason they are so into computers is because that is the way of the world. He isn't on one BB, but uses his computer for lots of other things. Like I said, I miss the old ways too. All you can do is handpaint signs for your own satisfaction, and for the handful of customers who want them. But the majority want fast and computerized. Sometimes we have to go along with progress rather than fight it. (I know because I have fought it too) I am happy you are still able to pinstripe the way you want. At times I wish computers never would have been invented. But then we wouldn't be able to learn and laugh from sites like this either. In order to make it in the sign business these days it still takes passion for the craft, determination to learn, and the ability to adapt to the changing ways.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Good post! and these are the topics I enjoy because the prevoke thought. I for one am guilty of the quick fix mentality, as well as the trial and error and learn mentality.
For example I had a carved sign restore, fail in 3 months, I posted about it and I recieved many answers as to " why" this happened. Instead of learning " hwy" this happened I side stepped it and sold the lady a new one.
Then along comes another restore, again I never learned why the previous pine sign failed so I restored this one as well, exactly like the numerous ones in the past.
7 months later, failure number 2! Now I realize that I must learn why this happens or never do another one. But...... it will bug me forever to never know why. so this time I will take the time to figure it out!
So be as it may quick answers are just that. Here and gone in a flash. Lessons learn by trial and error usually leave a lasting impression and that mistake is rarely made again.
Although laziness can be attributed to more than half of the questions asked, the other half is "why reinvent the wheel"?
ahh what the heck do I know It's sunday and I'm on cold medicine. Weeeeeeeeeee!
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Cheryl, the post had nothing to do with the ol'ways or kids for that matter. Nothing to do with computerized signmaking either. I'm not ranting or complaining and don't give a rats -ss who agrees or dis-agrees with whatever I say. However, your replies remind me of the many who do not read the text but look for the gremlins in between the lines.
and BTW, I do have a plotter, computer and just about all the software one needs. I have used these as toys as well as tools since the late 80's, and if you've ever been to my website, you would have noticed that my work consists of lettering done on a plotter except for monograms.
I have seen many a pinstriper get into vinyl signage through computerized signmaking and I guess its all in how much money one seems to need or how good they were to begin with. I just never found the need to get into signmaking other then vehicle art. I guess for the everyday pinstriper who never got to do car collections, antiques and classics, pianos and such, vinyl would make up the difference.
I hope you have taken my reply with a grain of salt rather then the whole bag.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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I've been on this block a very long time, probably since its introduction and have found my above statement to have changed dramically. Persons seem to forget what exactly it is that they do, as well as why they have chosen this type of business to become part of. your words Joey.
My words. Everything changes. Your post was about people not doing things for themselves. About using this and other BB's for a quick answer to their questions. It is called 'help' Joey. Sure you can go down to the library and get a book on gold leafing or pinstriping. Or you can get online and get the same information from, in my opinion, some highly skilled pros right here. right now!
' When actually its just some peoples kids that are on just about every BB on the net no matter what their age. If the answers are all just a click away, maybe thats why governments are cutting back on school funding.your words Joey.
Kids are smart, they have always been smart, and the reason they are so into computers is because that is the way of the world. My words.
I take everything you say 'with a grain of salt' as I have talked with you on the phone, and you are not as grumpy as you appear online. I don't look for gremlins between the lines....they just jump out on their own when you imply that people are 'not doing their homework' or 'using common sense'. In the younger generation, computers are where it's at. Not because kids are lazy or unable to learn any other way. This is the 'way'. I don't disagree or agree with you. And you should know me well enough to realize I don't give a rats ass or a flying **** who agrees with me either.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I'm still trying to figure out what those icons are for...and how I can chat?!
Here Here! to ALL of you! You all make a brilliant point one way or another, years ago(I be old)...trade secrets were just that...SECRETS... so by the time I went to work "In the trade"...please see my post..old popcorn and beer signs...most of the SECRETS were already lost. It's a true shame! There were so many things I wanted to do but my boss couldn't remember or wasn't told how to do them...we retained and did a lot of the old things, but there was so much more that we could have done, if those old techniques would have been passed on.
When I think of the stories he told me of early photographically done door lites and acid etching the image so they could be mass produced....or how they used Fells Naptha soap as an adhesive to adhere the drawing or rub to the mask...no 3M stuff there...can you believe soap? Oh yes,my friends...so much has been lost because for years,techiniques were SECRECT...Yes, find your own way, but don't ever look a "gift horse in the mouth".Sharing is a good thing but go from there Kiddo.
In light of all that's been lost because of an attidude that "make your own way...figure it out
-------------------- Starr Bright Blasart 2219 W Grand Ave. Chicago.Il. 60012 Posts: 19 | From: chicago, Il. | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sorry, I must have pressed something that sent that without a finish...At any rate,anything you can learn form an "old timer" is valuable...SECRECTS suck because they may be lost forever...AND you can use them as a foundation to do better and greater things going forward...Right? Pay for your "Hard Knocks" now and pay back later...Right? Starr
-------------------- Starr Bright Blasart 2219 W Grand Ave. Chicago.Il. 60012 Posts: 19 | From: chicago, Il. | Registered: Aug 2002
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