i finally decided that i should go further into debt and buy a cnc router(would rather die owing tons than having $ in the bank)so i'm getting hyatts(east coast)dual drive w/ artcam pro 3 d software. does anyone here use artcam pro? i've spoken to a few folks in new england and they love it..just wondering if any of you folks use it. also since i'm new at this carving stuff..is there any magic publication out there that has the do & don'ts about paints on foam, cedar & the other carving materials..oh and gold leaf...in the last 9 1/2 years i've had my sign shop i've offered signs made from mdo, alumilite, dibond, plexi, sentra etc...but not carved. since the materials are significantly more expensive i want to screw up as little as possible. i wish i could just load some software in my head with all the answers! thanks for any advice!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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From 1996 untll last year, while Roland DGA had an exclusive on my Vector Art company, I became a distributor for ArtCam software and CamTech routers. Lately I had to give up my involvement in that technology because I have the full time responsibility of running my own company again, and the ArtCam sales and training required a full time commitment that I could no longer make.
During those years, I did quite a lot of training and explored many facinating possibilites such as mold making and carved art panels as well as high quality "carved" signs with the 3D software, routers and various kinds of CNC milling machines. ArtCam is the most powerful and amazing software I have ever used, and I have used just about every kind of graphic software you might think of. In my opinion, there is nothing in the world even close to ArtCam, and it will run circles, if you pardon the expression, around all of the competition.
The learning curve is steep however, because once you know how to design reliefs and generate toolpaths with the ArtCam software, there are other complex issues of tooling, feed rates, material behavior with various cutters, etc., etc. It is not easy, but, if you have the will, money and time to master even some of it, this technology can open doors to business possibilities beyond your wildest dreams . When I trained my ArtCam customers, I asked them to choose one thing that they wanted to do with the technology right away to generate cash, and I would train them to do just that, and let the rest of the learning curve evolve later when they had something solid to pay for the technology going for them.
Instead of working for folks who are shopping around for the cheapest price on a set of magnetics, and are asking for estimates from every mom and pop shop who has a plotter in their garage, you will have the means to deal with customers who are looking for something very special and do not care so much about price...good luck and go for it.
-------------------- Andrew Holmes Vector Art Inc Pacific Grove, CA 93950
You are right... well put... but to be perfectly accurate we must say "hemispheres" for a three axes machine because it can only work to the equator, so to speak. However, the Artcam soft ware can support a forth axis (as in a rotary table), for carving wax masters for rings and bracelets, for example, in the jewelery industry.
Delcam International, the parent company for ArtCam, provides software for CNC machines that can carve in 6 axes (maybe more by now) for complex mold making like the stamping dies for auto body panels.
-------------------- Andrew Holmes Vector Art Inc Pacific Grove, CA 93950
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This is probably low on the list of impressive uses, but it was amazing for me to see a 20 foot 3-axis machine being used here in Maui to "carve" an outrigger canoe. There are production surfboards being made this way too. I don't know for how lond the technology has existed, but it was new to me to learn about this 4 years ago.
I think the actual technology has been around for quite some time, but in the last 8-10 years this kind of machining has evolved very quickly in regard to the softwares ability to generate an incredibly complex series of tool paths in a few seconds. For example, a design might incorporate many separate tools and tool paths...a progressive series of roughing passes to remove a lot of material in a hurry, and then progressivly refined passes with more and more delicate cutters, that may finish with a tool that is very tiny (almost microscopic in some cases) that may only take 1000th of an inch cut.
This was the sort of thing that took a human programer weeks and months to accomplish in past years.
There are other aspects of CNC machining that are even more exotic, as in electrical discharge metal removal using a coil of electrode wire or a graphite shape previously machined that is burned into tool steel with high amps. This kind of machining is often used for parts that could not be machined with rotary tools because of the specific geometry of the shape.
The machines that are designed to machine these graphite masters to extremely high tolerences are so precise that some of them must run a special program to get all the moving parts, such as ball screws and ways up to operating temperature before actually running the part. Even the tiny amount of expansion or contraction of the moving metal parts can run the tolerance on a graphite electrode thay may be used to burn a steel plastic injection mold for something like a computer mouse, or a special piece of medical equipment.
Even this technology will soon be old fashioned because we are at the advent of shapes being built up by printing devices that deposit material in layers. This kind of shape creation is able, of course, to build up hollow objects very easily.
It is now possible for a sign shop to purchase a router with automatic tool changers and ArtCam software for about 50K. An expert with the software can generate incredible reliefs from clean 2D vector designs and carve signs, doors, panels, art objects, etc., etc. To have access to this technology for 50K, and not put it to work is not a good business decision, in my opinion. It really is a huge opportunity and the output possibilities are almost endless. For example, I know of two companies who specalize in 3D carving of ice (done inside a big freezer) for corporate dinner parties where the punch bowl and desert dishes are made of ornamental, carved ice.
I hear so many people bitching about what has happened to the "crafts." All the hand crafts are now wonderful hobbies, but very difficult things to make a living at. The vinyl plotter pretty much put sign paint in the museum. I was trained as a cabinetmaker from the time I was a teenager, and with deep regret (because I loved the work), had enough sense to get out of it when I saw dining tables at Sam's Club that sold for less than I could buy the wood.
The "craft" is now about mastering the newest technologies, if one wishes to make money at the sign business. If one wants to paint pictures and keep the "old craft" alive, take your oils and easel to the beach on the weekend, but it is unrealistic to expect to make a living at it. Very, very few artists are able to make a decent living from their work.
There are sign carvers using CNC machines and software who are enjoying wonderful artistic expression with their design work, and are then getting paid $5000 for a sign rather than settling for 5 bucks an hour because they want to do it the old fashioned way with chisels and carving knives.
-------------------- Andrew Holmes Vector Art Inc Pacific Grove, CA 93950
quote: An expert with the software can generate incredible reliefs from clean 2D vector designs and carve signs, doors, panels, art objects, etc., etc.
My guess would be that in time the above statement will also be true for non-expert operator's with the help of 3D vector-art designed to supply router operator's with a collection of filagree's, scroll-work 3-d ribbon's etc. Is this on your to-do" list by chance, or does this already exist?
That shape-generating concept of depositing layers of plastic (rather then removing from a solid) has me picturing a desktop ink-jet of the future with a printhead that raises up as it speeds back & forth spitting out cross-sections or a nautilus shell.
I agree wholeheartedly with your take on the "craft" of mastering technology!
quote: There are sign carvers using CNC machines and software who are enjoying wonderful artistic expression with their design work, and are then getting paid $5000 for a sign rather than settling for 5 bucks an hour because they want to do it the old fashioned way with chisels and carving knives.
And there are those who enjoy paying 500.00 for a set of chisels to make many many 5000.00 signs instead of paying 1200.00 monthly only to be limited by some programers limited uncreative vision. AND forced to make salad bowls & ice sculptures just to make the monthly payment.
Don't get me wrong I think CNC is great technology, but just because it's there doesn't mean you can't make very good money without it.
The leaning curve is much steaper and more stressfull because every 30 days KA_CHING!
Not to mention the uprages on the EXTREMELY expensive software that does not impress me at all and just when you think you've got it down..........It's obsolete!!!!
time to drop another 50K
If your doing things like surfboards and stuff that is multiples than that router is a wonderful tool, And I can see a carving shop going cnc but most sign shops that get occasional carvings would be better off subbing it out or getting to a meet and learning to carve!
If I can learn it 2 days then anybody can.
[ November 04, 2002, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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pardon my rudness, welcome to Letterville and congrats on your new venture. I beleive your choice in routers was a good one. If you need to learn any of the things mentioned in your post. just ask away on the BB and come to a meet soon.
Chances are there wont be any CNC routers at a meet but lots and lots of Hobbiests and Museum peices just painting and carving the old fashioned way.
And there you will find the true fountain of information you will need to paint and do gold leaf.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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THE GEEZER BOOK OF RULES: ________________________________________________ I DON'T WANT TO LEARN ANY MORE NEW STUFF ______________________________________________
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thanks on the input...both responses have good points...yes i know i've taken on a pymt for 5 yrs...but i have some big accounts that i don't want to lose because of my limitations...and yes my 2 competitors have cncs(gerber)so i want to play with the big boys too. i work out of my home...have a great setup so i'm not paying rent to anyone other than myself. i have subbed a few things out, but it's not what i like to do(it's a control issue)...last but not least...i love technology...i want to expand into other areas(ie...woodworking) if the time allows. i'm very creative and hardworking so i'm striving for a few more doors to open. i offer excellent customer service and a great product. my customers appreciate that when they call it's me they talk to. i look forward to this endeavor! i may have to bite the bullet and hire someone part time but i think it would be an awesome job for the right person...i know i have a blast for the most part. thanks again!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I have to agree with Bob on this. I have a carving shop, and while their are times when I have more than I want to be doing, the idea of paying that monthly nut on a machine - as opposed to paying me - turns me off.
For me, the major improvement in technology is not the CNC router, but HDU. My time spent carving is one-quarter to one-third what it was carving wood. There are occasions - not often - where I have multiple jobs with the same design, or jobs requiring very small (less than 1 inch) carved letters, and at those times I'm happy to sub the work to a shop with a router. Otherwise, it's chisels, and BTW, I don't carve for five bucks and hour to satisfy my artistic sensibilities.
This isn't meant as a slam, Karyn, or even a criticism; you have stated your case well. I just wanted to give a bit more depth to the opposing view.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have very much considered a CNC, but not for sign carving. I would still do that by hand because, I really don't care for that "canned look". If I did use it for that it would just be to trough it out for my chisels. I find that the carving part is the easiest part of the job, and will agree that HDU is mostly responsible for that. I can probably carve a job faster than I could get ready to produce it on a CNC. I think that the word carving is used very improperly when referring to a routers output, though think the router certainly has its place. Its kinda like "cold cast bronze" being compared to real cast bronze. Give me a break.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Karyn, the software is very capable, but it will be the steepest software learning curve you have ever climbed. Imagine Illustrator and Photoshop slammed together in one product, with a post processor at the output point.
Two or three things you want to understand and have in writing before you purchase.
If you choose not to purchase the annual service agreement, what is the policy with respect to software upgrades. In the absence of a service agreement, what can you expect in the way of software support if you need it.
If you decide in the future the software is not for you and you want to sell the software, what will the restrictions be on your selling your software.
I have a letter from DelCam that I can fax over to you if you are interested.
Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Feel free to call me and I'll be happy to share my personal experience regarding the implementation of a CNC router in my shop and what you can expect to encounter.
Bob Stepehens 813.780.8078
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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It's about choice and acceptance and those who chose the right path will always make out. I know of sculptors who use multiple CNC 6 axis units to carve their basic forms and then add the finishing touches by hand. Their craft has not been diluted and they are happy cats with the ability to fill orders and pay good wages to expanding employee bases. Good luck to you and your courage is an absolute blessing. P.S. Andrew Holmes, holds a heavyweight title in class "A" human interests as well as having a monster effect along with Devon Cotrell, in this business of signs. Victor Georgio, also should have a degree. Iv'e seen him in action.
Jack Wills, (usin' Adrmore's channel)
-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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Interesting post...I am abit envious, I would love to have a router, and the Delcam Artcam software is the best, and from playing withit in real life and having a demo CD here I thought it was great to use, I like the way you can use bitmaps etc.
I also have to agree with Bob, I would really like a router as an extra pair of hands to do stuff that I dont have time to do...but in reality feel I would take in masses of boring and uncreative work just to make the payments.
Amongst all this technology etc, I have just employed my first full time help and he knows nothing about computers, but can handletter and paint great pubsign pictorials. I guess here, while we embrace new technolgy (just bought an Edge) we are carving out a niche (forgive the pun!) for more unusual upmarket signwork.
Karyn at the end of the day I guess its not what you do it with, its the quality of work you produce to your market and with just reward.
Welcome to letterville! I've been making my living carving for over 25 years. I have a BS and Ms in industrial tecnnology education.....BC. In essence I have been a student of industry all my life and I'm fasinated with ALL of the technology that has appeared over the years! The first thing I learned in collage (it wasn't spelling ) was that technology exists for only 2 reasons. First, to do things we can't do and second, to do things we don't want to do. (I'm open minded if someone has a third) If you accept this statement, then you will have to agree with the next one.....once you choose a technology, you must accept it's limitations, right? Example "ya can't make a square hole with a router bit"....I have yet to see a raised block letter that comes off a cnc router that doesn't have round inside corners.....shall we now look at the prismatics? The distortions are horrible!!! Do they sell? YUP!!! Does that make em OK? Your choice.... can they be fixed?...YUP! By Hand! The routers are really great and a real time saver but once you understand their limitations you CAN make a better product! Better than the shop down the street! Thats how ya beat the Big Boys....set yourself apart! Ok, now the 3D programs (I do this every year ) Go to the USSC Show in Atlantic City and walk into the booths sellin the 3D stuff....tell em how much you love the product they are demonstrating (they always have a piece runnin) then tell em that you would like them to show you the same sample run 20% bigger but at the same thickness.....it's a real show stopper! My specialty is relief carving.....the problem is that it's 3D but you don't get the whole third D, , so you need to create an illusion, just as 2D artists do. I don't think the putterprograms can do that yet.....I could be wrong.....very wrong and I'm sure I'm gonna read all about it tonight . Before ya buy, come to Atlantic City, Visit all the putter booths, Take my carving class, then decide......I believe if you invest in your own skills then you can pay yourself well, instead of the bank. Maybe I should just crawl back into my cave........
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun! In Atlantic City!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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would you mind listing some if not all the 'one thing to generate money right now' things that your students came up with? I'm just curious what other people have in mind when they get into routing.
When I sold an ArtCam package, I would try to get my customer functional after two days training on the software, followed by one or two days set up and training on the router. This training cycle is usually worth about $4000, considering travel, motel and meals.
Here are some examples:
1) One man had a furniture factory and wanted to carve intricate rosettes on very high quality, circular cherry and walnut doors. He had a $500,000, 5 axes machine and we had to send a company expert to help with this project. This customer also had plans to get into the mold making business by way of making wooden patterns for sand casting, but was going to take that up later, after his designer learned the basics.
2) Another customer already had a router and had been doing a lot of flat work with signs and letters for years. He had an opportunity to do one sign project in 3D that was worth twice the price of the software. He and I spent 4 days together turning his 2D vector drawing into a 3D design that was machinable. This person caught on very quickly because he was a router expert and knew a great deal about tooling and how different kinds of wood machine, etc.
3) One lady that I trained had a very successful sign business and a very good staff so she had some extra time and money to explore new business. She learned how to machine small decrotive plaques to sell at flea markets. I basically showed her how to take some of our Vector Art 2D artwork and quickly and easily make a 3D relief and how to develop a tool path. I might add at this juncture, that the precise editing of original Vector Art images really pays off when the gantry is pushing a 60 lb., 7hp spindle around the 4x8 table at a high rate of speed...messsy vector paths makes the machine shake and shudder something awful in the 3D mode.
4) Another person had a series of Alpine style carvings that he wished to incorporate into custom decks he was manufacturing, as well as 2D shapes that needed to be cut out in volume and with great precision.
5) Another person used the Roland Pixa scanner to scan in a 3D version of a refridgerator magnet. It was a tiny bunch of grapes that was eventually carved in a series of large winery signs, as well as used as a wodden pattern for sand casting an aluminum two part mold for hand blown wine decantors.
6) Another man did restoration work on Church alters and had his own casting operation for doing bronze and silver work. He wanted to first make some wooden patterns to restore the legs of a bronze table (which we were able to design in a day or two), and quickly found ways of doing other pattern work.
There are as many ways of making money with ArtCam as there are people who own the software. Many people let the router run all night carving an intricate sign or plaque and come in the next day with an object on the router table worth several thousands of dollars that was carved while they were sleeping...and they did not even have to leave the shop lights on.
-------------------- Andrew Holmes Vector Art Inc Pacific Grove, CA 93950
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Hey Joe, I signed up for your class in ACity. I have a question about this though. Can AutoCad be used with a router? If so, is it comperable? (sp)
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Hey Andrew - -I'm making a very nice living on "My Work" - thank you very much - seems you do carry a condescending attitude on 'yo sleeve - 'havin fun in North Mississippi..........
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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Hey can your router go from "Zero" design to completed set of truck doors, + 2 side panels, + tailgate - in under an hour and a half - using 3 colors - just wondering (by the way, that job paid $285.00, plus a $15 tip) - Carl
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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I guess I offended you by my comments about technology. Sorry about that. I was responding specifically to the initial post on this thread regarding the wisdom of purchasing ArtCam and a 3D router.
I was trying to encourage taking the step because I saw the potential up close and personal. As I mentioned, although I no longer am actively involved with training and sales of this technology, I was very involved for 5 years and was/am greatly impressed with what was possible, and, also especially impressed with the potential offered to sign makers for profits, at a time in the evolution of the "craft" when virtually anyone can get into the "vinyl" sign business for about $2500.
I am glad your work provides you with a good income, and am also glad you are having fun. You must be quite talented and also a good businessman. I was responding to the pervasive bitching I hear over and over about the "no-good" customers not valuing "the craft" and how hard it is to make money designing, painting or cutting signs in vinyl.
Kinko's is ramping up to compete with mom and pop. Plotters, software and materials are increasingly less expensive, easier to use and better made. There are very good books on color and layout available to anyone who wants to read them, and all the major magazines offer an ongoing education to new sign makers. It really is not that hard to make and sell a decent looking sign with a little practice.
The ArtCam option is just one of many ways out of the dilema of too much supply for the demand.
-------------------- Andrew Holmes Vector Art Inc Pacific Grove, CA 93950
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I'm sorry.....I forgot the topic of original post......don't get me started?!?!? I too git tired of hearing all the complaining on the board.....I think what it boils down to is providing a service.....fitting the price to what the customer can afford for his signage... I'll provide my customer a $12 temp coroplast "Help Wanted" sign or the Custom Deluxe Subdivision package including lot signs, directionals, marquee & so forth.....that's why I love the sign business - every project is different - Carl
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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man o man !!.......interesting topic ya started here karyn.........you just asked if anyone used a cnc.....hahah ...welcome to letterville!!!!!!......hahaha... i too am of the old school..i've been making "handmade" work since 74..i need, want , must "touch" what i create.....that's how i have fun, all the frustrations , and all the joys !....my physical connection with what i make ! .......and that won't change !!........but man o man, those routers are pretty farout!!....i can't see my self ever getting one, but i'm sure glad i have an assosiation/friendship with a very fine woodcarving artist who did ! ......and he's not just knocking out "spheres"......thanks andrew for the information ..........technolgy is what it is ! and it will just become more technolgy ! ......there is no stopping it. and those of us who want to use it only for itself will.......and others will have fun with what it can provide !!!!!!!vance
Glad you are gonna make it! Stop in at the Bull Pen too. This year I'm going to try to have some small "hands on" projects that folks can try. I don't have the tech experience to answer your question... but I'm sure the vendors in AC will...or hang on here, I'm sure somone will know the answer. Looking foward to meeting you!
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun! In Atlantic City!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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I've already got myself into this conversation, so I'll do it again... I don't have anything against cnc routers per se - but I DO question the idea that one has to have one in order to "compete". To be successful in the "craft" is to invest, on a continual basis, in skills and knowledge. The sign biz is chock-a-block full of folks who invest in technology (plotters, printers, routers) rather than in knowledge, and the results are all around us - in mediocre work and depressed prices. As for paying a bank a grand or more a month, to have a cnc router just to cut (a router does not "carve") incised letters in HDU for signs, well, if that's your pleasure, go for it. I'll put my knowledge and skills (and my eyes, hands and chisels) up to that pepsi challenge anytime. A cnc router can almost do what I do, but all that's gained is speed - and that's not enough, not by itself. I'm personally not interested in making furniture, doors, cabinets, whatever, and as I said, in the appropriate situation I will happily take a job to a subcontractor. But a grand a month? Thanks. I'll pass.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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wow...i didn't mean to start a war here! it seems alot of folks are getting very defensive about this machine and the people that purchase them...(btw-its a $600 pymt/month not a grand)...if i've given the impression i'm just a hack puke i'm sorry..i am not. i live eat breath and sleep my sign business...i work 7 days a week(my choice)and i'm solo in this venture, so this machine is acting as an employee in my eyes. i crank out alot of signs, banners, vehicle lettering and logo designs. i certainly take pride in my work because i love what i do. i cut out my own shapes, prep, paint, apply and install..i can tackle just about anything(except sing..can't sing for sh*t) most carpenters and or woodworkers get a woody when they come into my shop...(because of my tools not me personally)so please don't judge me because i want a cnc. i totally appreciate the fine crafter...i cut glass, paint(watercolor is my favorite), resin inlays in wood etc.. so i know what's involved in a fine craft. i have the utmost respect for any gifted craftsman and i total appreciate the arts. i was just looking for anyone who was familiar with the artcam pro software...that's all. i'm not here to judge folks on how they make their living. i pretty much expected that i'd be picking up a chisel to do a few finishing touches..but be damn sure that my finished product will be a quality product without the "canned look" with great customer service to boot. thanks for letting me defend my view.
[ November 05, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Every six months or so I get involved in one of these long and interesting exchanges and hardly ever know when to finally shut up. Having said that, I would like to make just a few more observations about ArtCam and CNC routers.
The learning curve is steep for the software, and also steep for learning to operate a router, and requires special skills of salemanship to sell very expensive signs.
One way around this challange is to partner with others who already have the skills that you lack. Make a new business partnership that works for everybody.
Lets say, for example, that a person is very good with graphic software and has good design skills as well. This kind of person could get good enough with ArtCam in about 4-6 weeks of intensive practice to create very good 2D and 3D designs and tool paths, if they were highly motivated. This person could also work at home or in some quiet place without dust and noise.
Lets say also that there is another person with a big shop, expensive router (perhaps under utilized) and not much time and interest for mastering ArtCam. This person is also very mechanical and does not mind a dusty and noisy work space.
And finally, lets say that there is yet another person who is best at sales and promotion and would enjoy selling very "upscale" signs, doors, plaques and sub-contracts with other shops, etc., etc.
Give it some thought.....but be sure to work through all the problems with a lawyer and consider every possibility you can imagine...especially the one about holding each other hostage to manipulate the situation to suit one's own wish...human nature you know will always rear it's less attractive head in situations like this, but it could be a big winner for all involved.
-------------------- Andrew Holmes Vector Art Inc Pacific Grove, CA 93950
I am envious! A CNC is on the top of my want list. Personally, I don't give a crap about what anyone else thinks about it.
Anyone can buy a CNC router but not everyone can make works of art with one. I can't hand letter worth a flip but I can make and dream up some pretty nice dimensional stuff. Does that mean I am destroying the craft?? It's no different than any other aspect of the sign business.
I say, "You go Girl!"
Some people just never know when to zip their lips and most are probably just jealous that you have the guts to take a chance and buy something that you believe will not only be fun but make you a better signmaker as well.
I'd like to see some of these "Craftsmen" try to take the time to create something 3D on the router!!
If you like doing everything by hand then do what makes you happy! If you like doing computerized design, do it! But don't bash someone else because they don't like the same things as you.
Enjoy!
[ November 05, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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I hope I didn't come across as a basher....if I did it was unintended. I believe I said that the routers are a great tool and time saver....but....if you know its limitations then you can take your work to another level rather than just accepting it as is.
I believe the first time we met in GA I raved about the sign you did for the Information Booth showing. You cut it out by hand....the router could have saved you some time....but what you did next, by hand, would have required a 3D program that would have taken a lot of time to program if you already had the putter skills. You got there quicker than if the whole project was designed and cut on the router. Which is my point. By the way, the router salesmen LOVE me. Without those machines the availabilty of dimensional signs across the world would be very limited....with them, the demand is high which increases MY business AND I have been able to raise my prices to match theirs....but I get to keep the money because I invested in my skills. Everyone I'm sure has their own take on this topic and there are no right or wrongs. Invest in the tools that will make your business flurish! I'm only suggesting that those tools aren't always on your suppliers shelf. Just a friendly offer here...for a $600 a month retainer...I'd be happy to come to your shop and carve the 3D work for ya and you can push my buttons to get it done to your liking {within a 2 hr radius} Just a thought..... Buy routers, band saws, sabre saws, jig saws, dremels, hand grinders, chisels and gouges etc. and keep makin those beautiful dimensional signs!!!!!
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun! At Atlantic City!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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I was writing you a personal e-mail but decided to post it here.
First I apologize for turning the focus on your post. And Please dont feal attacked personally or professionally here at all. The defense of those who are not in a position or interest of owning a CNC router comes from the attack from Andrew and the overall labeling he put on all those who prefere craft over technology. This is not speculation it is in his original post.
I for one am extremely happy for you and I applaud your decision. I am also open minded to the router and have romanced the idea of ownership myself.
I have confidently made my decision not to own one at this time for my own business needs. I also dont think anyone here that has posted thinks any less of you for owning one. If anything I read that most of us respect the CNC and your decision, but refse to be belittled into hobbiests and musem pieces just because of " thats the way it is done today "
As you can read in Cam's post as well it was the condencending tone from Andrew in his post.
Putting that aside, I will say I am impressed that you have taken on such a challenge, I wish you great success.
[ November 05, 2002, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I'm not pointing at anyone Joe! You are absolutely great at what you do. I have seen signs made with CNC routers that I could never do by hand in a timely manner.
I am a computer geek. I admit it. I love technology. I can do things faster on the computer. I could probably do the 3D renderings faster than trying to figure it out by hand.
The point is, "That's what I like!"
Karyn came here asking for info about software and this turned into a "my way is better than your way debate," AGAIN!
This is the whole reason people quit coming around to post. They are sick of the bickering.
I will not be adding to the battle beyond this point!
P.S. Those letters took me 3-4 days just to get cutout and shaped properly. I bet someone with a CNC could do it in less than 30 minutes. As long as they are happy with the end product they should get the same gratification. At least I do!! The CNC won't paint for you!
[ November 05, 2002, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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First, congrats on taking the step to the CNC machine. ArtCam's great, but be ready to pull your hair out while banging your head on the desk! Full relief 3-D is very complex, and gets even more complicated with bit selection. Don't let this scare your off!!!---just give yourself lots of lead/experiment time on projects as you get going.
One thing to look at is to not try to "prismatize"(?) everything. Depending on what you're working with, look at letting the router do ALL the 2-D work for you----then, take that and tweek it with a chisel, a Dremel, some sanding, whatever.
A tip for painting---with Gerber machines we have an auto-inlay feature. Paint your 'face' out and then hog(clean) the letters out of it. Then, cut your letters positive, paint them, then pop them into place---raised letters or whatever that require very little work in the paint dept.
I speak from production experience, not sales or Training here. I almost always found that there was some element of hand-finishing req'd once my job came off the table. Don't expect it perfect and you won't be disappointed. Besides, the finishing bits are the most fun sometimes!
I would like to offer a full and heart felt apology to any one who was offended or felt they were being attacked by my comments...I really did not mean that at all, and am shocked and saddened that my comments were taken in that way. I was prompted to get involved in the discussion because I have a high level of expertise with ArtCam and CNC 3D machining...I devoted about 5 years of my adult life to the subject,because for me it was the perfect blend of my life long devotion to craft and my facination with technology.
-------------------- Andrew Holmes Vector Art Inc Pacific Grove, CA 93950
quote:I hear so many people bitching about what has happened to the "crafts." ...
The "craft" is now about mastering the newest technologies,...
Very, very few artists are able to make a decent living from their work.
...sign carvers using CNC machines and software...getting paid $5000 for a sign rather than settling for 5 bucks an hour...
I didn't see Andrews remarks as attacks.
There are many sign artists posting on this board, as well as a fair amount of extremely talented & highly recognized artists. Most of us are not going to achieve the degree of recognition that an elite few well deserving masters of their crafts have achieved.
Of course any of us could learn one or more traditional crafts & many of us could become quite proficient with enough time invested.
Still the reality Andrew pointed out is that there are sign artists here grumbling about their income or the current percieved value of their product everyday.
Some may prefer to "invest" in knowledge of a traditional craft, and after "paying their dues" with a lengthy development of skill in their craft, they will gain a return on their investment in terms of satisfaction & passion for the creative process as well as financial gain through succesful marketing.
Others may need to prioritize the "investment" of their time/money (same thing right?)in equipment that can support itself almost immediately. Many comments about the monthly paymant sound as if it is a noose around your neck FOREVER. Obviously purchasing new equipment is not wise unless the revenues exceed the expenses (including time & learning curve), but if they do, then like Glenn always said (about the Edge)it's not "how much money it costs" it's "how much money it makes"
With the amount of time I would have to invest in something like learning to carve $5,000.00 signs, I am sure I would have a lot of efforts along the way that would bring me great creative satisfaction, but may also only bring in about $5.00/hour
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In essence I have been a student of industry all my life and I'm fasinated with ALL of the technology that has appeared over the years!![[Confused]](confused.gif)
, so you need to create an illusion, just as 2D artists do. I don't think the putterprograms can do that yet.....I could be wrong.....very wrong and I'm sure I'm gonna read all about it tonight ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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