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I used to make replicas of popcorn signs and Dewey glass one armed bandit machines...does any one else make these now? I also used to make replicas of the old railroad tailgate illuminated signs. Is anyone making those? I'd hate to see it die...I need to talk with anyone who does it so it's not forgotten.
Starr
-------------------- Starr Bright Blasart 2219 W Grand Ave. Chicago.Il. 60012 Posts: 19 | From: chicago, Il. | Registered: Aug 2002
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I am currently reproducing those type of work in hopes of one day stepping up to very elaborate pieces...I would like to see your designs if you have drawings or pics available
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1023 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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I have produced both over the years, especially railroad herald drum signs for the museum here. I also have many of my grandad's patterns from the Rio Grande but they are too brittle to even unroll.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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If you're ever real curious about what's on the inside of those rolls of patterns, you could contact any art museum curator and likely get some good advice. I'm sure they deal with that kind of problem all the time. Could well be a procedure you could do yourself.
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Oh my God, I'm so glad to see that somebody out there is still doing that work...unfortunately, It's late and I've been siting at this computer for an inordinately long time...will write tomorrow...any one still use lead foil for the resist on raw silver and hand cut it? Kent...what railroad lines do you do? I did mostly Sante Fe...and maybe can get my hands on some of the rubbings...very old and Don has a good idea.
Talk tomorrow, Starr
-------------------- Starr Bright Blasart 2219 W Grand Ave. Chicago.Il. 60012 Posts: 19 | From: chicago, Il. | Registered: Aug 2002
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Starr since you're in Chicago, I don't know how long you've been there but you may remember seeing all the incredible glass work done on Cigar and tobacco stores around the city. I can't remember any specifics regarding locations or brands of cigars, but I do remember being really fascinated by them years before getting into the sign trade (1978). As far as I know all these shops are gone now.
Another Chicago area resource for very cool glass work (speaking of popcorn) was supposed to be the Cretors factory. I have never been there but I understand they used to do incredible glue chipping and leafing on popcorn wagon glass.
Lately though, the more I travel through Chicago, the more I want to snap pictures of all the really bad sign work and put it into a book. Some of it is funny, some of it is sad, some of it is just pathetic. All of it is entertaining though!
-------------------- EmpY Mayo Pardo #138 South Elgin, IL. Posts: 436 | From: South Elgin, IL | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm back...Hey Kent, Robert and Empy. So glad to hear from you all. This is a long one so get ready.
Twenty seven years ago, I started working at a company called Western Sandblast in Chicago...owned by a man named Bob Pyne. The company was taken over by his grandfather. I think. Bob was in his early 60's when I started so you can imangine how old the company was. Our original catalog was dated from the 1800's...pretty cool. A lot of the old techniques had already passed away with time, but some we still did, including refurbishing a lot of those old beer signs and cigar signs you speak of, Empy.
This was in '75. Most of the things we did were for collectors. We made restoration and reproduction glass for the old oak "one armed bandits" (slot machines) called Dewey Machines as they had a color picture of Admiral Dewey in the center. We also made the old popcorn signs for collectors of the old Cretor wagons; some glue chip, silvered and painted. In addition, we made the blue flash glass ones for the wagons. I think Cretor is still making wagons but the sinage is just silkscreened. We also made lots of railroad signs...but that, Kent, will have to wait. I can't type my way out of a wet paper bag...so I will reply on that at another time.
You all will understand why these signs aren't made anymore when I tell you how they were made. They are just too labor intensive...only the crazy collectors can afford them. Probably 90% of those signs from that era were made this way...
For example, the Popcorn signs...cut the glass...swipe or polish the edges... paint a thin flow out layer of asphaltum on it( this is so the horse hide glue won't chip into the areas you want to leave smooth and silver... you can still get it from a company called Carbit in Chi.)...mask for sanblasting...hand cut the design you have traced onto the mask with carbon paper(yes CARBON PAPER...back when I did this, there was no such thing as taking a rubbing on tracing paper and using spray adhesive to stick the rub on and just cut thru the rub...spray adhesive wasn't around then...Good God, was I happy when 3-M came up with that 77 stuff...no computers then... no Illustrator... no Photo Abrasive stuff GOD!)...Ok, back to the sign...blast the glass...relatively rough abrasive...give it a nice edge...cook the glue (let's see, hide glue you can get from Ed Hoy...sorry but I can't remember exactly where they are...they're a stained glass supplier...way south suburb of Chi. follow the directions on proportions but it's not rocket science...just put some glue crystals over LOW heat and add enough water and cook like oatmeal... keep adding water as needed and heat several hours till it's about the thickness of heavy cream or a smooth cake batter...but if you're either rollering or pouring and smoothing with a flat stick, work fast as it sets up quickly.) all morning till it's hot and will flow...roller about a 3/32" thick coating of glue while hot, onto the glass... While the glue is setting up...(wait about 5 mins)...run your exacto carefully around the design and peel the mask off while the glue is still wet or the smooth edges between chip and smooth won't be so smooth... a sticky messy job(I always asked why we couldn't...allow it to dry and chip by itself (no baking ovens invented to speed it up)...depending on heat and especially humidity...this could take up to three days...and the chip you get is just what you get... everybody asks me how to contol the chip..you can't... when you're doing it yourself on a small scale...and I say that's what makes it unusual, one of a kind, you get what you get! (they make glue chip glass in Taiwan where there are are controlled pours and baking ovens which give some quality control but that's boring... it's amazing some of the patterns that just occur because a human hand got it a little thicker in one area than another or got a little, fine chip, or hardly any chip at all because the glue was too thin, so what?!)...If some areas don't chip...heat the glue again an blop some on those areas but don't get it on any smooth areas.
What a pain...but quite a sense of accomplishment when they're finished...OK back to the sign...once the glue has chipped UP off the surface,(it makes quite a crackling noise)... scrape the excess glue and chips off with a razor blade scraper don't worry about scraping hard...cant hurt the chipped area... get as much off as you can...but wear gloves because each chip of glue has thin glass shards attatched to it...that's how it works...the sandblasting gives the hot glue something to grab onto, and as it dries and contracts, it takes little oysters of glass with it...and again...stay away from the smooth areas with that scraper...ever silver a scratched piece af glass? Oh my God...the scratches stick out like "sore thumbs" VERY OBVIOUS!
Is this getting to be too much? Ha! we're only half way through. The next step is to silver the glass but wait...silver looks really bad over the glue residue you can't get off by just scraping so... soak, soak, soak... apply hot water soaked paper towels and clean the rest off...this takes a while as the glue gets really gummy when it gets wet...hold it up to the light to make sure its completely clean...a major pain when your doing the large popcorn sign...2'x5' agggh!
Silver the glass...if you don't want to do it yourself...have some one else do it but it can't have any mirror back put on it...but realize that, raw silver on glass tarnishes fast and you can't touch it or you'll rub it right off...quite a propblem...one smudge, one finger print and silver it over...lead foil as soon as possible.
Take lead foil, yes, lead foil!(I don't even know if any one still makes it...it came on a 10" wide roll and was very heavy...maybe 8 ml.?)...roll out as much as you need to cover the entire sign smoothly... dents are not good...take the asphaltum and mix with clear varnish maybe 3/4 asphaltum to 1/4 or a little more varnish...(you are now preparing the acid resist so you can strip the raw silver to paint those red letters)...this part is just like gold leaf except imagine your leaf weighs 2 to 5 lb...paint the foil with the asphaltum mix...thin and flow out...let it get tacky and lay it on the raw silver side...this takes two people...touch in the middle and gently smooth out from the center with your hands ...do not use anything but your hand because the foil will tear between the chip and smooth...
My God, I can't believe I actually did this...now for the tricky hand cutting part...you can see the outline of the letters and the scroll work on each edge of the sign through the foil...using your good old exacto, cut out the center of the letters and scroll work thru the lead foil...leaving an 1/8" BRITE LINE(that's what we called it)around the edge of the letter...this was all done by eye as you went...and no miss cuts or over cuts allowed or the silver was scored and would show....
Carefully peel out the lead foil and strip silver with potassium ferra cyanide using a soft brush....( I have no idea where we got that...obviously toxic... cyanide HELLO! I think I'm going to die young Ha!...don't want to get that on you. However, I would think a gentle steel wool scrub would do it)...the whole idea is to get the silver out without damaging the brite line edge the foil is protecting...
Clean well and paint entire back of sign with Naz Dar red enamel or any good enamel...letters and scroll work are now red and the edges of lead foil are sealed.
It was the best technique they had at the time and was actually pretty good considering how long some of those signs lasted..now you can silkscreen acid resist and forego the lead foil altogether....but when you actually see one of those old ones and wonder what that stuff is curling off the back... it's the lead foil. Aha! Pretty cost intensive Huh? No need to wonder why Cretor doesn't make the glue chip signs any more YES?
It sure would be fun to make one again though...anybody interested? I'll show you how for old times sake and good old Bob Pyne...got to find that lead foil though...
Robert Friese,a Letterhead, of "Chicagold" in Chicago is doing some...we've blasted some for him asphaltum and all...but I haven't seen any of his finished things...so I don't know what his finished product is....must call him.
Obviously, the trick is to get the silver off only in the areas you want so you can paint, airbrush, or put a pic of Admiral Dewey in there! At any rate you all can now glue chip a piece of glass and leave some areas smooth...that tecnique hasn't changed!
Starr
-------------------- Starr Bright Blasart 2219 W Grand Ave. Chicago.Il. 60012 Posts: 19 | From: chicago, Il. | Registered: Aug 2002
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Starr that's great! I've read about doing glue chip, and I've seen it done at meets but you made a really nice story out of it. I love the old methods - I was born 50 years too late. I'll be looking forward to your next one...
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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You mentioned the company catalog going back to the 1800's... is there any copies available of it that could be looked through? Or any old photographs of work? If so, I'd love to see some of it. It would be well worth the drive from Elgin.
If you're serious about showing how to do the process... even with updating it for modern times (so we don't all die from cyanide poisoning) I'm sure we could get a nice group of people who would love to see it. I can see a nice mini-letterheads meet forming out of this.
I'm pretty certain Robert from Chicagold would attend (although I can't speak for him obviously) and there's another guy in Wisconsin who just goes by the name of SPAZ (hey contact me will ya?) who is also very good with gold and glue chipping. Perhaps both of them could offer their insights as well.
Feel free to contact me by email if you want any help.
-------------------- EmpY Mayo Pardo #138 South Elgin, IL. Posts: 436 | From: South Elgin, IL | Registered: Nov 1998
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In about 1988 or 89, Rick Glawson and I were teaching at a Sign Ideas show at Pheasant Run near Chicago. Along with a couple others whose names have escaped me (sorry) we went into visit the Western Sandblast Company. Bob Pyne had just recently died but we made arrangements with family and one remaining employee. We were looking for any tips or tricks for glue chipping that we did not already have. We discovered that only the proper use of asphaltum was new information and we, along with others mostly taught by Rick are now using. We also paid for and came away with a few samples to preserve for posterity. Hanging on my wall above this computer is a copy of the original tin blasting stencil reading: Western Sand Blast Company, ORNAMENTAL GLASS, Clinton & Jackson Sts., Chicago. I also have a pattern for a popcorn wagon sign and Rick found a catalogue listing for the wagon to go with it for me. As much as anything, our excursion taught us that we had been on the right track all along and the work we are producing today is as authentic as any. We were sad to know that we had missed meeting Mr. Pyne. We also are too young to have visited the much larger and more prolific glue chip sign company, also from Chicago: Rawson & Evans. Nice to see the historic process in "print" although much of it has been simplified in current use, thanks mostly to Rick.
[ October 19, 2002, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Kent Smith ]
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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As to railroads, I have done many Rio Grande and Rio Grande Southern of course and restored about every main line name around.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi guys, Thanks for all the e-mails. Kent, that would have been 1988...Bob Pyne had just died and I was 9 months pregnant with my now 13 year old son...and I already had a 5 year old daughter...Bob's brother offered the business to Willie(a dear Black man who had worked for Bob for years as the sandblaster, and who was my wonderful friend, and has since passed away... he used to sneak up on me in the dark and just smile and, as he had a gold tooth...that was the only thing I saw...we'd laugh...What a guy;I miss him so.) and me...for more than either he or I could afford and definitely more than the business was worth at that time. I was running the business then, so I knew the figures, and Willie was uneducated; what was going to happen when I had to be away? It was just bad timing and to this day, I regret not figuring out a way to do it...oh well...I have my son.
Bob Pyne was an eccentric guy who only made enough money to keep it going and pay us. He was a confirmed bachelor, not gay; lived in his parent's paid for house; drove old cars; had a PAY PHONE as his business phone...oh yes, didn't want all those glass drivers running up the phone bill; actually put money in to return business calls...need I say more?...but he was a kind and gentle man and a true gentleman...I enjoyed working for him for thirteen years and considered him a friend. However,I was going to deliver a child; Willie was nearing retirement so we said thanks, but no thanks.
The business was sold to a young guy named Tommy Burke...a guy who had no experience in any of that business..why he wanted it, I'm sure I don't know. He went in and cleaned out the place and threw out a lot of valuable things...in his ignorance... and moved to a suburb, not a good move. I didn't like his attitude(a young hot shot) and only agreed to work part time once in a while to do the old stuff like the railroad signs or if he had some dificult hand cut job to do.( you can either hand cut well or not. It's in you or it's not.) Well, he lasted a few years and folded...sad to see an old company like that go under...I have since worked for other people...none like Bob Pyne though.
And now to the point...Tommy kept all the old railroad rubs and the old Western and Rawson and Evans catalogs...I have none....I saw him a few years back...said he was willing to part with them for a price...Hum...he's the same old same old...I'll see if I can find him and talk OK? Does this pique your interest Kent?
At any rate Empy...I thought MY name was weird...it would be a blast to do a mini Letterhead meet...must call Robert...Chicagold...But Kent and Alan have to come and show us oldsters how they've simplified and modernized things...like how do you strip the silver out of a sign that you've silkscreened acid resist on....all right what resist does one use now? Whatever...I just don't do that work anymore...but could!
Kent, the railroad signs were sandblasted with clear "brite lines" so the paint could go in. Some were silkscreened because the design didn't lend itself to that...the bitch of it was that they were illuminated from behind so they couldn't be painted in an overlay fashion...they had to be perfect front and back so when the light came thru, well you know. They were done in two parts..the front piece with the logo, the back piece with a color or parts of color to get it to work....Tommy found somebody to make the metal drums that light and hold the signs...as I said...I'll try and find him...no one has come knocking on his door to give him the BIG BUCKS for what he has...as far as I know....I think he is now a concrete contractor...Lord knows, one can't make a good living as a Letterhead! Ha! Just kidding....no I'm not! TTYL(talk to you later) Starr
-------------------- Starr Bright Blasart 2219 W Grand Ave. Chicago.Il. 60012 Posts: 19 | From: chicago, Il. | Registered: Aug 2002
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We met Willie, wonderful guy. New guy I think was the one cleaning out and selling off some of the stuff. We have had access to the catalogues but all the rubbings as well should be in the American Sign Museum.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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For backing the fresh silver, briteline and cover image with asphaltum. When dry, spray on or dip in "silver strip". A mild oxidizer that removes any exposed silver.
For exterior mounted signs and if you can even find lead foil thin enough for use, apply it on the back of the sign after all other work including color has been completed. The foil backing was to keep the solvents "in the paint" and not evaporate out causing brittleness and eventual peeling.
Hopefully following is a photo of Willie and the pay phone. 1st attempt at the photo thing.
-------------------- Rick Glawson Fine Gold Sign Co. Wilmington, Cal. Posts: 16 | From: Wilmington, CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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Hey, Sorry I took so long to respond. Busy busy...Hey Rick, I loved the pic of Willie...and that damned pay phone! I miss him so.
How in the world do you put the asphaltum on the raw silver without smudging the silver Rick? It's so easy to ruin, even with the softest of brushes or rollers. I can see the idea of the foil on the entire back but most of the old signs I restored were where the lead foil was cut to produce the brite line and then backed with a good enamel.
I'm silvering some "antique" mirror( good ole Chicago tap water makes it old. Ha!) for a project we're doing now and that raw silver gets ruined if you just look at it funny! always has...
Kent do you have any of the old Western catalogs or Rawson and Evans? Please send some copies...not a lot or anything...I would love to reminisce..and you're right about those rubbings. All right! That's it! I will put a post-it on my forehead and try and remember to find Tommy!
I just don't do that kind of thing any more. Oh well, and hand cutting has been made obsolete by the computer. We have a very good letterhead we use for just that...when we get the occasional large sign job.(must tell him about this site) Mostly we are a glass blasting..architectural stuff..and a high end awards company we make some fabulous stuff out of optical crystal. Today..Chicago Public Radio awards...marble and glass...very nice. Billboard Latin Music awards,etc. We do most of our small things on the computer and then expose on film that resists blasting...220 grit. Glass donor plaques and donor walls. It's just a little different than what I used to do for Bob and that's OK.
Thanks Cheryl. I must come to a meet sometime, though not technically a true letterhead...it would be fun and informative! I could no more hand letter a sign with One Shot than pigs can fly! I sure do admire you guys that can. Starr
-------------------- Starr Bright Blasart 2219 W Grand Ave. Chicago.Il. 60012 Posts: 19 | From: chicago, Il. | Registered: Aug 2002
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This has been one of the most interesting posts I've read in a long time. I would love to see the kind of work described here. Keep it coming.
Joel
-------------------- Joel H. Peters Peter Pan Sign Graphics Cary,Il. "Doin' it Good since 1974" Posts: 114 | From: Cary,IL,USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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-------------------- Mario G. Lafreniere (Fergie) J&N Signs Winter did show up! Posts: 1257 | From: Chapleau, Ontario | Registered: Jun 1999
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Hey Joel, You're not going to believe this but I grew up in Cary! Imagine my surprise when I saw your post! And the next time I'm in the area, I'll come by OK? I'll look up your# and call first Ok?
We lived in the Hertz mansion in Trout Valley when just about nobody lived there...what a great place...we used to ride the dumb waiter!...A great place to grow up...we used to ride a sulkey we hooked a friend's pony up to, all over the place including downtown(just tie that pony and rig up to a pole...no problem, that pony was a mean one and would bite just about any one except us)...where everyone had a charge acct. at the drug store and the little grocery...(which, I think, is now some fancy gourmet food shoppe...notice the E on the end?)and buy Twinkies and penny candy(YES, PENNY CANDY...(GOD, I BE OLD!) and CHARGE IT! HA! God, we were spoiled rotten...we din't need no "stinkin' Jewel Foods"....never locked our cars...couldn't even find the keys to the "manse"....those were the days.
However, I truly did walk a mile or more to school every day in all kinds of weather, in a dress(girls HAD to wear dresses in those days)...past the bull barns and sometimes those old breeding bulls got loose...walk fast don't make eye contact...Ha!..so I brook no whining about having to walk to school from my own!
I know that Peter's Bakery is still there...and in business..want a great tip? Go there and get their "Sweedish Flop"....Oh my God...Hog Heaven any any price....my in-laws live in Fox River Grove...and acually got one for me for x-mas...I died in a delight of powdered sugar!
I know this has absolutely nothing to do with letterhead "stuff" but I'm waxing nostalgic...
Will call and come by, Starr
-------------------- Starr Bright Blasart 2219 W Grand Ave. Chicago.Il. 60012 Posts: 19 | From: chicago, Il. | Registered: Aug 2002
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It's really good to see two killers on one post, you and Kent, are the good & the bad. Now that leaves me as the ugly. By the way........ A great photo shot of a real american icon. I am collecting a few books of the masters who roamed these here hills and some are astounding. Currently editing some scans which I'll send a few your way in the future.
Jack Wills, (usin' Ardmore's channel)
-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bump Up! Myself and Paul Rafferty are having a weekend of glass chipping right now the glue is cooling down Cheers Terry
-------------------- Terry Colley The VintageSign Co 42 barrack hill Romiley Stockport Cheshire, England sk6 3az tel 0161 494 5089 terry@bullandbrush.fsnet.co.uk Posts: 210 | From: England | Registered: Dec 1999
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To think I almost missed this thread... I did my first glue chip job a month or so ago, and I'm making plans for another couple of them for myself. Maybe I need to think about silvering angel gilding...hmmmmm. Starr, thanks so much for all the info, and to Kent and Rick and everyone else for their input.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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These are the kind of post that make the BB what it is. Thanks Starr!
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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