posted
I was thinking today as it is Saturday, my day to do what ever I feel like doing, So today I choose to brush up on my pinstriping, and I find myself doing some airbrushing, and the things I used to do more of years ago before the edge and pc. It is so refreshing and soul cleansing for me. It's in these times I do my most thinking.
I have been noticing this board has slowed way down on the postings and a lot of people I used to enjoy seeing around are no longer around. Now each has thier own reason but I wonder how m,any aren't around because they have no passion for all this techno stuff.
There seems to be little if any sharing or teaching of the old school stuff anymore.
So what if we had a section much like the portfolio section that was called Letterville unplugged? In thissection we could freely share ideas, techniques and such that has to do with the unplugged sign craft much of us get so much out of. Not to mention some newbies could still learn the old stuff.
I get the feeling that the old ways aren't greatly encouraged around here anymore. When's the last time you went to a meet were everybody joined in with their exactos and vinyls and covered a wall with Gerber 220 hp material? How fun would that be? ( NOT )
I would not lugg my edge to a meet just to participate.
What do you think?
[ October 26, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Who needs a another section to post on old techniques etc.? If they won't post here, making another section won't help.
The reasons many don't post here are as varied as the people here. I don't think it has to coincide with our prejudices and grievances. I believe too many get caught up with this board or others and tend to want to pull back, but who knows? Maybe they decided to spend more time with their families or interests outside of signs. It's possible you know.
Now back to that oil painting I am working on.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2787 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I think having other categories to view on the board would be a good idea. Maybe a techno section a hand lettering section and general discussion etc.
I personally would like to not have to pick through all the bitch session and political threads and look at what interests me. But at the same time, who's to say it would get posted properly.
Oh what do I know! I'll shut up now.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I see the kids section get very little use and that could be a great place for it!
Amy I was thinking of you as I wrote this, seeing Mark post his antique signs seemed to spark you up to try it yourself. And seeing you do it aprked me to give it a try as well.
Dave I've always wanted to better myself in Oil paintings . I think when these posts get posted in the main forum they get pushed aside.
I'd like to see a section dedicated to the old ways. Maybe even a true unplugged section where we post projects with no computer help at all.
When you have to lay out a sign by hand you get a different perspective on negative and positive space and the importance of it.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Bob....I think it is a great idea....but when things have been posted on handlettering (script lettering) not many seem to post. Maybe it is because they don't know how to handletter...or they are embarrassed of their style ? I don't know. But I love that side of sign making and would love to see a section for just that. I think we would get some of the old posters back. I mean.....how much fun is vinyl vinyl vinyl? How many times do we need to talk about which plotter...which vinyl is the best?? Maybe that is why I enjoy the OT posts. Vinyl gets boring! We gotta stir it up some!!! (Yes I am a trouble maker I know)
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
My guess to your question might be the Hop,SKip,and a Jump Atitude of these forever "Stuck in THE BOX",learn the fancy tricks BEFORE the basics. Get rich quick,microwave oven generation That has YET to figuire out that ink is less durable than paint kinda people that just don't get the idea behind the letterhead movement!
Which will be the exact kind of people that will respond to MY reasoning because ..I hurt thier feelings. Or....If the shoe fits,wear it. Because the truth hurts Never to been seen at a live letterhead meet types are over using this wealth of information site with out any regard to membership dues or real life friendships! Yeah,I have noticed it too. I would suggest,THOSE types start another section rather than the Tried and True methods USALLY dissused here
letterhead
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
In all honesty, I tend not to wander too far from this main bb. I realize I'm missing some neat stuff on the Portolio Page etc, but it's a time thing for me. I like to breeze through the posts and read what I find interesting and brush off the rest.
Perhaps if 'the painters' were to create a goal to post at least one technique or tip a week, we'd see more on the subject. I'd LOVE to read more and be inspired by the original techniques. I think it's simply a matter of just getting involved and making it happen.
I too am bored of just vinyl talk, however I also would hate the board to swing to controversal topics simply because there was a lack of 'good stuff.'
posted
I think everyone here knows that signs are not a big part of my business. Aside from the wonderfull friendships I've been blessed with through the Letterhead Movement, my motivation to continue is my desire to to share my experiences in carving with those who choose to expand their own skills. The meet on Mars, was for me, a test to see if there was enough interest for me to continue with this effort. The response exceeded my expectations! Having said that, there have been very few occasions in the past year where a question on carving has been posted here. I, like many , scan the posts and skip by most because they have no relavance(sp) to me.......sooooooooo.....in response to Bobs question, what do you think about this idea? If someone with experience to share would log into Letterhead Chat at a certain announced time, with a set topic, those with the same interests or those with questions could join in and have a "live" class. Would that work???? Would it be too slow or confusing??? I don't know.....just thinking out loud...
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun! In Atlantic City!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
HHHHHHooooooo Boy. this will get interesting.
As far as the chat ...that is a time thing for me. Nightime I don't want to sit and chat on the computer. I have hopped in a few times and saw a couple old buddies....but it seemed kind of slow moving to me.
The best thing is still the live meets in my opinion. Wish I could go to the farther away ones. I would love to meet Michael Boone..John Novicki, Glenn Taylor.....and others in person! Who knows Mr. Fair...maybe we will even bump into each other at a meet someday. Now that would be entertaining. I have never been to a meet where I didn't like everybody.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I had suggested a separate section a little while ago just for "old masters " stuff...kind of a painters corner. Some folks felt that it would divide letterville when unity was more important.
I don't know about that. I see it as a consequence of growth. How many people are registered here?? 7000(+)?? I don't think it would be such a terrible thing to have a special "room" just for the painters.
But after thinking it over some more I tend to think it's OK like it is. There have been good posts recently about glue chipping(Star Bright) and antiqueing (Mark Fair), so paint related topics ARE being discussed. There's the panel swap going on too. How much time can a fellow spend on this site? Already in the short time I've been here I bet I average a minimum of 2 hours a day reading posts...thats time away from an already crowded schedule. I thoroughly enjoy it, but it CAN be addictive.
I know I'm rambling a little, but just one more point.If the paint stuff was posted seperately, then alot of the other graphics people might not be exposed to those posts. I think its good for the non-painters to be exposed to some paint talk now and then, just as I feel its good for us painters to read about computer/vinyl talk. It sorta keeps everybody balanced.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I would like to add in our town church, Our pastor had been leaning torward a new contemporary service. So as a blended service emerged a LOT of old hardcore church goers left the congregation. Also a lot of new age church goers did't come either.
SO we forged into 2 services, it was a battle and the fear was that would divide the church. well after 4 weeks of this 2 service thing we had more than doubled our contemporary service and our traditional service has grown tremendously as well. Has it divide the church? not at all.
Now I know this isn't church but hey relate don't compare. I know there are times where this paint versus vinyl thing flares up personalities, so why not add a section. If your interested in it then you'll go there, if not than you won't. No extra time needed. Just spend the time you have reading what you want.
A section would be in the same site so I dont see the division, If anything it wouldn't get more divided than it already is.
I for one have my feet planted on both sides so i have no favorites, I just want to see more relating to sharing old methods as to not let them die with the craftsmen ( and women ). The whole keepers of the craft thing.
[ October 27, 2002, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It was pointed out that we all come to LETTERVILLE for lots of reasons. And lots LEAVE LETTERVILLE for whatever reasons. Well, I for one have got a business and a life (such as it is) to work at, and I see mostly argumentative behaviour, backslapping, and lots of politically correct commenting, which i'm guilty of at times, myself.We all get drawn into stuff. Perhaps all this crap should have it's own section, and EVERYTHING ELSE.....both paint and vinyl, and all related crafts stay right here where it belongs! And to those who think the BRUSH is a CRAFT and VINYL isn't....well....with the hardware and software available today, you can do damn near anything with a computer AND vinyl than you can do with a brush, and when you get good at it, it's MORE fun than paint, because there's no cleanup and drying time and all that. BOY AM I CRANKY TODAY!
posted
Bob Rochon, I think if you want to discuss "the old methods" just start a post, some of us dinosaurs will jump in.
Burns, well I guess I never have gotten very good with the computer cause it sure and hell isn't anywhere near as much fun for me as working with my hands and a brush! As far as the cleanup goes, , it takes less time to wash out a few brushes than it does to haul out the MOUNTAINS of waste from the vinyl ( we won't even go into the material cost difference ) Drying time a problem? I've been working with urethanes lately on my pinstriping, both HOK and some of the automotive stuff, I've been working them into the lettering end of it too, no , I don't think you can use them on a 4x8, but you can certainly letter a set of truck doors with them...drying time a couple of minutes.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Why not just agree to do something similar to OT?
If the post topic includes the word UNPLUGGED, that is the signal that electronic solutions are not invited in that particular post.
There's an element of humor in jumping on a computer to communicate instantly with people all over the world on a topic that specifically excludes computers. Humorous, but OK by me. Probably "A good thing", as Martha would say.
Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Can you elaborate a little on lettering with the HOC and automotive urethanes? Sounds like this topic is right in line with the unplugged theme.
What are you doing to slow down the drying time? Or do you need to? I clear over gold with Imron, and I have to work pretty fast to get it on before it tacks up. It has been my experience that putting any Imron thinner in it makes it too hot to put over one shot, but brushing it straight out of the can works fine.
I guess you could add linseed oil to urethanes without hurting them...or maybe some penetrol would help the flow.I don't like sticky paint!
Just curious how your experimenting is working out...
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Jeff, you got it right when you called what I'm doing experimenting, now if we can just entice Robert Nouis to get on here with a little info Robert showed me some of his urethanes that he at one time was going to market. Absolutely unbelievable stuff! At the time he wasn't sure you could letter with it at much over an inch. We had it working close to a foot tall, yellow over black complete coverage! The HOK is kinda hard to letter with, it wants to pick itself back up if you go back over it. I find it does cover great though, they recommend thinning as you go, but I'm too set in my ways and premix. A couple of drops of catlyst no thinner and it's pretty manageable, it's mighty easy to overthin this stuff. I've been mainly working with PPG Concept. This is what a lot of the Houston stripers use. Steve Robinson is on here at times, he uses this stuff and is way more familiar with it than me. Steve, if your out there chime in. It definately takes A LOT of getting used too. Info is pretty hard to come by. You've got to hit the mixture JUST RIGHT to get it to brush decently. I couldn't begin to tell the ratio, again I add a couple of drops of catalyst into a small amount in a 3oz cup and thin it til it feels right. I found the best way to keep it from getting "sticky" is to work the brush fully charged. Here again it has a tendency to pick itself up, choice of letter style is kinda important. A Roman or Spencerian would be tough, a Chicago style script a casual or a plug though,is a snap. Also, it won't go real far before you have to rinse the brush out, like the town name on both doors. If you're changing colors on most every line it's no hassle. Oh yea, another thing, when mixing colors, it can drive you nuts. The pigment strengths are nowhere anything like One Shot, like when you ad black you have to ad a bunch, the red just a little and the blue even less. Like all urethanes this stuff is nasty/bad for your health, I only use it out of doors and wear latex gloves when mixing. When I use a urethane to clear gold, I use it straigh out of the can, no reducer. I clear the gold first, then do the One Shot work, brushing a urethane over One Shot is just too risky for me, spraying it is hard enough.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I have a full color set of the Atomic Paints from Robert Nouis as George Perkins speaks about. I believe there is a problem that hasn't been mentioned regarding that paint, and its the mixture of the catalyst and paint. I believe the mixture calls for 50% catalyst to 100% paint which is way to much considering the overall effect. In the past, some believed that urethanes were a hazardous to ones health, which it is!
Some believe that the HoK lettering and striping paint costs too much and therefore tries to find a comparable paint in which to use which is less expensive. But the fact remains that to brush automotive type spray paints as the Houston stripers do, very few colors will actually work, because pulling long lines requires more pigment, binders, etc. I'm sure you've all heard of striping lacquers some years back, Paul Muir of San Leandro, California put together a line called Dagger-Lac which was of the same formular for brushing as with HoK, only in lacquer, he was bought by Sid Moses but yet, in order to truly use urethanes to the utmost degree for coverage in brushing, you must have the correct formulars as these paints have in order for each color to be used and I'm not talking just greys and tans. As a Pinstriper, I find that using a small amount of colors doesn't do a thing for my head as well as my customers heads, and in this case, since I do a fair amount of dealership work, I find that many vehicles need color, whether reds, blues, greens or what have you, but color is king.
Maybe I don't stripe as fast as the Houston boys but I can guarantee that my lines will show great coverage over time and in most any color, yellows and reds included. I believe there are tricks that one uses for just about everything and with all the time we all have on our hands, we should be able to figure out how to make thing happen without the use of adding a catalyst to 1-Shot and how to make it last without a clear coat. Of course, using the correct materials for any project requires experience, know how and experimenting on your own. BTW, this is really whats its all about as using sub standard materials actually costs you more in the long run.
Thank you for your time.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I have worked with the paint George talks about at Joey Hutsons swamp meet. Veeeeery kwel stuff!that takes time getting use to Joey Maddens remark about inferior products is right on,and a good rule of thumb to be used for these new products. Now if I could just find the brush holding gizmo on my plotter. I could use it AFTER I teach it to climb a ladder
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Joey is dead on about the limited color choices, something else I forgot to mention:(
Joey, as far as the cost of HOK, I don't find that to be a big factor since I'm not coating out 4x8's. Comparing it to the PPG stuff I think the paint itself is twice as much, the reducer is about twice as much but the catalyst is about the same price. Using HOK, I end up using very little thinner if any at all, I'm still experimenting with ALL this stuff so I can't really say to cost effectiveness of one over the other, I'd guess they are gonna be roughly the same. I've also done some experimenting and found out the HOK and PPG will mix together, color wise and catalyst wise, maybe not the smartest thing to do but I never claimed to be the sharpest tack in the BB , hey if the manufacturers can use us as guinnea pigs I figure it's OK to use myself
One other note on this subject, I used to have a trucking fleet I lettered trucks for, they had a branch down in Alabama somewhere, the Alabama trucks always got painted up with an 80's type style with a lot of panels with fogged colors, they were also lettered using the same Imron colors as the panels, the lettering was all done with a brush. I never could get in touch with the painter, but he definately had it figured out.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Here is a thing I learned when doing firetrucks. I sized and gilded the door as usual, then brushed on clear Imron with no thinner, but during this process I also cleared where the outline and shadow would be. Then I shaded and outlined with one shot, let dry overnight, then cleared again with Imron. The one shot over a "bed" of Imron must react with the clear so that it takes the final clear coat better. Previous attempts to clear over one shot were spotty at best, with some lifting occuring, but once we started putting it "under" the One shot too, things went much better.
Also I'm still curious about adding linseed or penetrol to urethanes in general. Seems like it ought to help the flow...gotta try that soon to see what's up with it...
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Jeff, adding an oil based substance like Penetrol or Linseed oil to an acrylic enamel or urethane enamel is like adding oil to water. Urethanes are not sign enamels which are oil based, urethanes are like plastic.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Jeff, what you are saying about putting the One Shot on a "bed" makes perfect sense. That's the best way to do it if you're spraying the clear. I never thought of trying it when brushing it though.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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