posted
A girl called me today looking for a part time job....said she has a recent degree in graphic arts from the university here. This has got me to thinking...what if I hired her part time..16 hrs a week or so....
I get so busy that either I have to work crazy hours, or else my customers have to wait a longer period of time to get their work. I have thought about getting some help with finishing signs, you know...cutting sign panels, painting sandblasted stuff, etc., but to be truthful I haven't had much luck finding someone who is interested.
But I never gave a whole lotta thought to getting a good computer person in here. I'm thinking it might free up alot more of my time. I am a one man shop and sometimes it just takes me forever to get computer sketches done.This person who called is versed in Illustrator, but is willing to learn Corel9 which I have. I'm thinking that maybe the layouts might improve having access to both programs...if I hire her maybe she might want to do certain things with her program.
So my question is; its more "normal" to look for other signpainters when you're busy, but what do you folks think about hiring a college trained graphics person? Have any of you gone this route before, and if so, how did it work out? Any thoughts?...I'll be talking more with her Friday morning..... I guess I'm thinking along the lines of mentioning real flexible hours and maybe helping me organize my computer a little better at first...then seeing what we can create.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would be very un-inclined to hire anyone with a degree to do graphic work in my small sign business, here's a few reasons why:
1. they have a DEGREE, they are gonna want to be compensated for that eventually, in hours or pay or both.
2. My company is--MY company, and I want my designs on my products.
3. You could be training your competition.
Here is what I have done instead, and why:
1. I posted a flyer at my local high school, and found an ample supply of eager teens. (Teens are much less likely to burn you and open a shop across the street )
2.They work cheeeeep.
3. They are great for "grunt" work....
4. They can actually become quite skilled in A relatively short time....painting panels, weeding, apply vinyl, perfing and pouncing patterns, dealing with the trash, clean-up, etc.
5. It is a great experience, for them and you. If the kid(s) have an interest in art, congratulations, you have given them more than extra cash, but also a leg up toward a possible career. I can't see that bein' true at the local burger shack.
I have done this for years, and have rarely had a bad experience. In fact, one of my "kids" went on to be a game designer for playstation 2!! (now I am asking if I can be HIS assistant!
posted
I'd say go for it. When it comes to creativity two heads can be better than one. If she is talented it may be a great way for you to offer your clients some more options, and diversity. If she has retianed some good common sense, and is open to learning your business she may very well be a great addition to your shop. A High School student may be easy to train, but having a recent degree in Graphic Arts just might bring some fresh ideas into your business.
Do some thinking about what you feel is fair for her hourly wage, and make her an offer. If she feels you're not offering what she needs, then I'm sure she will decline politely.
Give her a very thorough interview, and get a strong idea of her capabilities and style. If she is comfortable with what you're offering, then I'm sure there is a good chance you may have a talented asset to help with your work load. I doubt she is looking for a healthy saley, 401k, and full benifits, simply because she asked about "part time". I'm sure she is just looking for a place to work, gain experience, build a resume, and still be able to utilize her artistic ability.
Good luck.
[ October 21, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Bailey ]
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Some interesting thoughts coming for me. I am also at a point where a little help seems like the only way to keep up without turning down good jobs, or giving up what little life I already have outside of my shop. I am not a sign painter, but more of a graphics person, so when I've thought about help I usually think of someone who screenprints & could cut MDO, or sintra, magnetic etc. roll out a decent coat of 1-shot, weed, weed, weed, & apply vinyl. I've had a guy for 3 months this year, & one for about 10 months 5 years ago. I remember it seemed like I needed to stay tuned into them pretty much to keep feeding them tasks, & monitoring their performance.
I have thought more recently how great it is when I work at night & I can get my edge & 2 plotters all running at once because I have no calls or walk-ins. I usually have a lot of layouts all done & approved when I do this, & I may weed a little but just setting up the cuts & prints, while running the machines & handling the materials keeps me pretty busy. I used to think that "designing" was my favorite part of the job, & the last thing I would want to give up. Now I realize that a good deal of my layouts are basic enough I wouldn't mind delegating that work to a helper. Also as much as the client consultation or "sales" work is an important part & one that I think I have gradually developed some necessary skills that not just any hired hand could replace me on, I have begun to imagine myself hidden away with my production workstations, & a counter person with another design station that fields all the walk-ins & phone calls, takes the orders & quote requests, does basic layouts & call-back or fax communications to get quotes or proofs back to the client. In my vision, 2/3 of the interuptions would not get to me & I'd be more productive. The asistant would gradually learn to do more quotes alone, but would start by taking down the info all day & handing off to me at one time. When I've done the quote, they could contact the client & possibly take the job through recieving deposit, approving proofs & completing the final computer files, & even production of basic vinyl jobs. I would take over the design work on more custom projects, but simple stuff could be done almost entirely without me being bothered. while I focused on more high-end stuff, or branching out the production methods as I could learn more of the techniques I hear about in Letterville.
Anyway, thats the latest vision I have for an assistent.
posted
Jeff, After running a shop with up to 14 employees for 7 years, I decided to quit babysitting employees and open my own business. I soon thought I needed more help, so I found myself with 2 1/2 employees, and selling jobs that I realy didn't want, just to keep them busy. I was in the same boat as before. I got rid of all employees and concentrated on what my customers realy wanted, a good design from me! If you hire a "GRAPHIC ARTIST", they won't do real work! If you hire general shop helpers, you have to keep a close eye on them because they generaly screw up more in one day than the amount you pay them! (fact) After 24 years I now have no employees and keep it that way. If business gets too busy, just raise your prices. (much better) I find that most anyone that can find there way around on a computer call themself a "GRAPHIC ARTIST". It is nice to bounce your ideas off someone else, (2 heads are better than one)luckly I've got a great friend (competitor) who is an extreamly talented "Artist" who is great bounce a few ideas off of, and to get a little feedback from. It has never been my goal to get bigger, it has been to get better! have fun John
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hope you're not thinking two people will be twice the production...it NEVER happens.
If you want twice the production work twice as hard and let someone else hire the "graphic designer".
He're's what we do tho when things get hectic...hire a temp to take care of the office...file...make contacts...curb and filter the calls...help clean up...bring in lunch...order materials...make the deposits...sort out the bills.
All the things that take away the time you need to design and produce.
There really is nothing more satisfying than having someone doing all the stuff you hate to do...or can't find time to do.
Hire her if you want to but expect your productivity to drop to half (if not worse).
Just the way I think!!! "but if it werks fer me it'll werk fer you".
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
I've had John's (right down to managing 14 employees), Tasmus' and Monte's experiences over the last 31 years plus about every combination in between. One thing to keep in mind about hiring high school students is that at times there are tax credits for doing so that can be quite helpful.
For two years, I had the helper Doug wants, he did all of that for me. However, Danny recently moved to Provo, Utah to help out a congregation in the ministry. I really miss him. We are trying to work out the logistics of working via the internet for some things. He recently flew back here to visit and worked for me for a week to give me a break.
Give careful consideration to the suggestions given, do the interview and then make the decision you think is best. Don't be afraid of change. As the old saying goes, "nothing ventured, nothing gained".
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5114 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
iam a 1 man shop(paint, vinyl, design, computer repair) i have another sign paniter(great painter, and worker)he doesnt use a computer(i built and gave him one for last xmas)he will learn. him and i work together on a lot of jobs, i do proposals and help him price his jobs, and when i need help(i was down from oct 7-11, back was out and legs would go numb every now and then)he helped me get a walldog job done. i went out today and helped him deliver and hang a 4x8 sheet of sintra. hes comin over tomarrow, i got a banner to paint with an african womans head....hes also black and wants to do the painting!!!! as for the high school kids, good deal, but they always want pain in a** stuff cut. as for the "graphic designer"...well every one under 21 who has played with a graphic computer program...seems to lay claim on that one. id be wary. just my 2 cents
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can't add anything to the above good advise.
Be aware though that a newly graduated "designer" will probably come in with a very nice portfolio of computer work ... class assignments that they were walked through step by step. If they picked up the "whys" depends on the person.
We once hired a girl with a nice portfolio who didn't know what do do with a cdr. file (Corel draw listed as skill on resume though), 3 hours to design a simple small corocrap sign with 4 fonts - every line squished different - multiple clip art. Not the sharpest tool in the shed but had a nice portfolio.
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you categorize employees into a category, production or expense, that helps determine wage. Doing designs is part of the sales side, that feeds into production. Do you have the means to actually keep up with your sales? We found the starting place was to hire someone to answer the phone and protect us from the public so we could get some unbroken segments of billable hours. I think this is a more productive process than hiring a designer for a small business. If you need to draw your own designs on paper to feed to someone to re draw into a computer, you're multiplying the process making your signs more expensive. Also, sseniors that have worked a career and want work to stay active, make better employees than recent college grads.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6832 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well,the general consensus seems to be against this hire... I myself am still not sure, but some of you are probably right that a person to help with cutting out and painting would be more appropriate for my situation. I guess that if that were the case I would prefer to hire a young person mainly because they don't already know how to do it, and therefore are more trainable to doing stuff the way I want it done. Older people are probably more set in their ways and may start this stuff like "what are you doing it that way for?"
My mind is still working on justifying hiring a graphic artist. Remember..this is a part time deal if I do it. I'm thinking maybe I would be able to advertise the concept of logo design being carreid through to all of my customers printing needs. You know, someone comes into the shop and orders a sign for a new business, then likes the layout so much they want cards and letterheads to match. Up till now I,ve been giving them a disc with the logo on it to take to their printer, but maybe I could be doing more of the prep work right here.Also I could notify all my customers that I'm now doing expanded graphics work too. Another thing is cleaning up files when a customer can't provide good artwork and you must scan and trace something. Whenever I catch myself sitting there moving nodes around, I really feel like I'm wasting my time, yet it has to be done.
I guess one alterior motive is to get my shop on more of an even keel. By diversifying just a little maybe I wont have "dry spells" during the year. I noticed on Pierre's post that quite a few people have had that problem before, myself included, especially around the holidays.
Finally, I have to watch out about this justifying thing.If I have to get busier to make this work, then am I really solving the problem of needing some help, or am I making the situation worse?
Anyhow, I still have a few more days to think about it...thanks to all who have responded...it helps to hash this out a little...
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jeff, you are in a different position then many of the above respondents, because of your own admission of not being a proficient computer graphics person yourself. For that reason yout ideas, as clarified in second post, seem good. I think you would really be off to an improved covering of the bases if you got not just a computer graphics, but one who has worked in signs specifically already. I know thats a long shot, but less of one once you decide if that is what you want to find.
Looking at this from possibly the grad's view, she is just out of school and maybe has some doubts or questions about what she can do. Maybe she is a tad interested in the sign biz because of the slick stuff she has seen. I mean, signs are 98% design and 2%content in my eyes (rough estimate there).
If she works under someone who would give her any chance at getting something in her portfolio out side of those 'class projects', that would possibly be enough reason for her to take a part time job at low pay.
As for her talent, good work will speak for itself. Yeah, there are a ton of 'Tom,Dick,andHarry's that claim to be a graphic designer since they have a computer, but their work will say otherwise. Is she some sort of competition down the road... well in my opinion, competition (or buddy fellow sign shop) on a friendly basis is better than unfriendly and it sounds like she would work from a different angle than maybe you do.
I love and very much admire all of you guys and ladies for what you get to do. 'In your face' design that everyone gets to see. If she is anything like me, the pleasure of working with some of you far outweighs everything else. Hands on experience is priceless.
It is up to you, but I say what the heck... if in a couple of months things are not working out... let her know that. She still got to work with you and you, hopefully, got a fresh perspective on some of the stuff you have been looking at for years.
I am a graphic designer who likes (or would like) to work on signs more than I have gotten to and would have loved to do some parttime work at a sign shop fresh out of college. But I decided to take a couple of comuter design classes and see what was up with that.... and I was hooked.
Give it a thought and if she seems interested after you talk to her for a while, give her a shot.
-------------------- --If you don't care where you are, you ain't lost.
Tony Potter Blind Mice and Company 3001 Bever Ave. SE Cedar Rapids, IA 52403 (319) 573-9001 www.blindmiceandcompany.com tonypotter@yahoo.com Posts: 209 | From: Cedar Rapids, IA | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why not do as large companies do? Hire her on a 90 day trial period. If she works out...great...if not..a goodby and no hard feelings! This method has worked very successfully for most corporations!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you want my very humble opinion...(probably not, but I'm offering it anyway )
Be wary of ANY employees if you are geared as a one man shop currently. It is great to have help when things are busy but it is tough to let them go when things slow down. (been there, done that..it hurts)
As others have said..doubling the workforce will not double production. YOU will have to do THIER scheduling for them and that takes time.
If you REALLY think you need extra hands..try hiring a retired person. Most of them don't need the money, they just want something to do, and that makes it easy to "lay them off" when things slow down. Also...All retirees have a lifetime of experience, and their advice can help a lot, sometimes.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Having myself been a worthless grunt, to install, to fabrication, to designer. The first thing you need to know is that most designers out of school have no real valuable skills for a one person signshop, and I have worked with quite a few in my day. We use interns from design schools from different parts of the country and I am always suprised at thier lack of knowledge on working in scale, production, simple layouts, etc.(and these are good design schools not some tech school or small college) I have only seen a couple that were any good (at signage) and none of them would ever work at a sign shop. If her portfolio is really good and you are going to branch out into graphic design, who is going to take up the slack when she leaves? And believe me, if you were any good, would you work for a one man sign shop very long? As far as training your competition, I wouldn't worry about that, if none of us worked for anybody first, then we are probably doing it wrong anyways. (self starters don't take it wrong) But for the real answer, I think someone needs to train the next generation of designers/sign persom, she might leave, she may become your competition, or she may become an ally, when she moves up. she may learn to like it and stay and be a very valuable employee, you will learn from her, you might find she has other thing to bring that you may not see. As a employee, I always took a job on the assuption that I would stay if it was going to be worth my time, and energy, ask yourself if you would work for you, and if not, ask yourself what changes you need to make before hiring anyone, even part time. Do you have a business plan? And if so, did it ever include employees, if you dont have a business plan I suggest making one and see where you want to go. After that, have a good talk with her, AND other potential employees, about what you want to do, and how they fit in, after that it should be clear who you should hire. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey there Jeff I know what you're going through... Started this business in Jan 2002, thinking I could run the whole thing myself. That lasted about 2 months. I had hired a part time semi-retired artist to assist when I started to get too busy to keep up and deadlines were keeping me up a nights. The part timer turned out to be not so great...she spent a lot of time wasting time, always wanting to talk it up, and a few times I returned to the shop to find her friends seated comfortably, sipping on coffee and catching up on the latest local gossip! (and of course, painting everything the wrong color!) Guess who had to fix the mistakes every night. This woman was old enough to be my mother, and I think was at a point in her life where she wouln't make a very good "follow instructions" person.This is a small town, she knew just about every passerby and would jump up from her work to catch people so they would come in to "talk'!@!!
A young (24) year old showed up one day to drop off her resume. I told her that I didn't want to see all her "school stuff" just whatever she thought was her BEST 2 or 3 pcs. of work. This kid has worked out great! She has skills in areas that compliment mine. She is learning simple layouts (although according to her resume, she 'knew' computers,) she was already dabbling with the airbrush, I give her all the work in that area I can, she's learning to carve, guild, and she really doesn't mind the grunt work, either. Went to school for graphics, was working 2-3 hrs every other day as a grocery clerk.Loves this job and her enthusiasm is wonderful. I never promised her a full time job...just worked out that way so far.
Downside: -Training time, mistakes (less as she goes) -Babysitting,making sure she has enough to keep busy -Payroll, she gets paid every week even if I'm waiting on customers to pay me or not -I sometimes miss having the whole place to myself
Upside: -She can really get a lot done while I do layouts -She's dependable, always opens on time if I have to be elsewhere or out on a job. The store isn't often left unattended. (we are right on main street) -Answers calls when I'm with customers -Enthusiasm plus!!! -willing to work the extra, we often work late
My best advice: -try the person on a part time basis -hire someone who you think you can work well with - hire someone you aren't afraid is going to become a competitor -try to keep the design work as your job -slowly teach them more as they become confident and as you come to trust in thier abilities.
"Degree" in anything, doesn't mean big bucks to start.Around here you earn your rewards,not expect them.
Best of luck to you!
-------------------- Shirley Carron Black Sheep Designs 184 John St. N. Arnprior,On.,Canada shirleyc@magma.ca 613-623-7053 Posts: 503 | From: Arnprior, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
We live and work in a small community. Hired a lady who knows everybody and boy has it worked out.
-------------------- Glenn Thompson Tell-Tale Signs Williams Lake, BC sign@telus.net (250)398-7446 Posts: 201 | From: Williams Lake, BC | Registered: Dec 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I like this discussion. Maybe what's happening is I'm realizing that I need to learn a whole lot more about this Corel program I got in order to get all the things done that I would like to do.
Maybe I should see how much she knows, and if its a lot more than me, maybe I should ask her to tudor me for a while...for pay.That would improve my situation and at the same time give her a chance to look at my stuff and see if she likes it. Then when I'm so smart I can't stand it, I'll ask her if she still want to work part time. If not, OK, at least I got to learn something.And she will have seen a real sign shop in action.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
(fact) After 24 years I now have no employees and keep it that way. If business gets too busy, just raise your prices. (much better) I find that most anyone that can find there way around on a computer call themself a "GRAPHIC ARTIST". It is nice to bounce your ideas off someone else, (2 heads are better than one)luckly I've got a great friend (competitor) who is an extreamly talented "Artist" who is great bounce a few ideas off of, and to get a little feedback from. It has never been my goal to get bigger, it has been to get better! have fun John
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
)
Printer-friendly view of this topic