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Now that Ronny Raygun can no loner remember which way to guide and lead us - have the Republicans come up with "The Trickle Up^ Theory", now? Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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It wasn't just this thread, Joe, you bust out Limbaugh as your whipping boy all the time. I don't know what his pet phrases are, or much else about his views, as I just don't listen - you seem to know much more about Rush and his views... c'mon Joe, fess up. You're a secret "dittohead", aren't cha? Heh heh ehe....
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Haha Mike, I think it always has been a trickle UP economy. Tricle down never worked, the rich just kept their money or spent it on yachts and expensive vacations. You would not beleive the amount of $80,000-$4,000,000 yachts down here. Yacht slips are going for $1,000,000+ here.
It's funny how the WORLD economy is so based on the USA's economy. The original post is from Canada.
[ October 19, 2002, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Robert Thomas ]
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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OP, If you know that is some of LINTBAGS retoric, then you are admitting you listen to old lintbag. Now we know, deep down in side you are a lintbag fan. The truth finally comes out. OP LOVES LINTBAG!!!!!
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I don't have any political statement to make, and no knowledge of the economy at large, but figured I'd weigh in on this topic with my thoughts.
Business is good for me this year. I think it's pretty good for Maui & Hawaii in general. I know it will be my best year. Closed on my first house in December. Only put 5% down, but homes are up by an average of over 20% since then, so I should be able to re-finance already. Also just won a bid for over 12K for ADA signs to be supplied & installed for the County. For my one-man shop, that's a nice chunk to help boost my fourth quarter. After 3 years of living in my shop working 24/7 I now spend a huge amount of time & money on the house & yard, but even with a fat new bill to pay, things just seem to take care of themselves.
I really don't spend time following the news & can't grasp global or even national economics. My economics are very simple-minded. Someone mentioned that people who don't worry about money, or never had it rough, do not have a realistic grasp on the common persons realities. While I agree in that truth, & I feel it is true for me as well. I may not have enough income to justify the fact that I don't worry, but as a lifestyle choice: I don't worry!
I have had it rough financially for the first 15 years of my adult life, due to my unwillingness to "play the game". I had my fun, didn't mind being broke, & let my anti-establishment, counter-culture ideologies run their course. Now in retrospect I would say that I was as much a sheeple as any yuppie capitalist who bought in to "the game" from long before they could even understand or consider not playing. Now I am stoked on free enterprise capitalism & sometimes can't believe I am lucky enough to make a living doing something I love.
I am careful about some overspending such as credit card debt, but without any budgeting beyond the occassional glance at my accounts recievable, If I want something for the house or the business I look at my check register. If the money is there I get it. I pay my bills ahead of time to keep from having much money there, but when it is there, I have no fear about transfering it into "living" because that is what I want in exchange for my hard work. When I get older I guess "financial security" will mean more to me, but since I lived without that so long, right now spending as fast as I earn is part of my version of Dan Sawatzky's theory. It is an investment of trust in myself, my business & in the positive repercussions of my attitude.
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Doug, you're outlook is refreshing. If more people lived like you, the word "recession" would have no meaning. I'm glad to see you're doing well. :-)
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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I'm always amazed at what people think about economic theories, including the idea that the "rich" (a different species, obviously) either "keep their money" (how? and what for?) "or spend it on yachts and fancy vacations". Who cares how the "rich", or anyone else, spends their money? As soon as money is spent, it returns to the economy, where it moves as a measure of value. Money doesn't "trickle down", or up, or anywhere; money is a measuring stick for value, nothing more.
So let's examine this. A "rich" person buys a yacht, for $300k. That yacht was built by a shipyard, which employs workers, who are paid salaries and benefits (there are no Asian sweat-shops building $300k yachts. They are built in the US by well-paid Americans, mostly. I'll be happy to introduce you to some of them if you like.) Those workers use their money just like you do - they buy food, clothes, shelter, cars, etc. Thinking about where the money spent on a $300k yacht actually goes is not as emotionally satisfying as envying a rich guy who owns that yacht, but it's necessary if you want to actually understand an issue, rather than just play word games with it, which is what politicians teach us to do.
So what if the "rich" just keep their money? Answer: They don't. In fact, they can't, any more than you can. The only way to keep money is to stuff it in a mattress. As soon as you spend it (on yachts, big houses, parties, booze, jet-setting to Vegas, or however else we imagine the "rich" throw away money), it goes back into the economy. If, instead of spending it, the "rich" put their money in a bank - or stocks, CDs, bonds, whatever - back it goes, into the economy, working, again, as a measure of economic value.
But there is a way to screw up the flow of money. It's called Government. Government interferes constantly with the flow of money. Out of the $300k spent on the above-mentioned yacht, about 60% - $180,000 - goes to the Government in taxes - sales taxes, payroll taxes, excise taxes, transportation taxes, etc. What happens to that money? It no longer is used to measure value in the marketplace, because it is now under the control of people who use money, not for spending or investing, but as a means of political manipulation. The political class of our great nation operates a scheme that staggers anything the "rich" could imagine - it takes money from people by force, and uses that money to purchase influence (including votes) for the specific purpose of maintaining itself in a position of power. Since that power has no real economic measure, it can only be maintained by the seizure and manipulation of money through taxes and Government "spending" programs. And where does Government "spend" its money? On whatever and whomever will assist it in maintaining and increasing its power, which is based on its authority to remove money from the economy by force.
A caveat here. This is not a "conservative/liberal" or "republican/democrat" issue. Both major parties are deeply emeshed in this system; as political entities, they cannot be otherwise. The only difference between parties is that they tell a different group of people whatever it is they wish to hear, in order to maintain the influence among, and the loyalty of, that particular group. It is nothing more than two competing factions of the same group, struggling endlessly to have their hands on the levers of power. In this type of system any deeply-held political philosophy or set of committed principles is a liability: people who have them (think Ralph Nader or Ross Perot) are marginalized and rejected in favor of creatures such as Mssrs. Clinton and Bush, Hastert and Gephart, etc ad nauseum.
So why am I sitting here on a Sunday morning writing a treatise on economics and politics to a bunch of sign people? I'll tell you why. We are operating our lives and our businesses on the killing floor of the American (or Canadian, as the case may be)economic marketplace. Our survival - as independent businesspeople, as individuals, as artists and producers - is wholly dependent on our ability to think clearly, to understand issues, to know the difference between reality and the choking smokescreen generated by the political Wizards Of Oz whose every waking moment is spent trying to influence and manipulate us for their own ends. Every time someone here, or anywhere else, uses political boilerplate phrases or expresses unexamined opinions, they laugh - and keep picking our pockets. Our only defense is to look them in the eye, hold reality up as a measure of value, and tell them I DON'T F***ING THINK SO, PAL. And as a final word, though I may sometimes be a bit rough on some things people write here, PLEASE don't take anything as a personal attack. That's not my intent. I respect anyone who can keep their head above water in this trade, in this economy, given the bull we get fed every day. End of sermon.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It always amazes me the economic theories people come up with when their personal money problems arise. Some need a figure head, be it a president, political party or talk show host to focus their attention and blame on. I guess it's better than blaming your parents.
None of us really know the big picture as to why economic downturns happen. Economics is theory not science as they would have us believe. Sure their are schools of thought I agree with (Mises), but how to keep the engine going full steam is beyond all of us. Suffice it to say free enterprise is the best way for all of us to live, and less encumbered by government and it's associated leeches, the better.
Jeff, if spending would cure all our problems, then why doesn't everybody go out and do it. It reminds me of a science fiction story I read years ago where a future fascist state existed where the major crime was not spending your quota and the repurcussions of not doing so.
What was the saying? A recession is when your neighbor is out of work and a depression is when you are. It all seems tied to our self centered view of life.
All that being said, I think the economy in general is in for a rough ride. Just an impression, my feelings probably no more insightful than most. It just seems there was way too much overvalued stocks, bogus businesses and their attendant financial statements. It just seems there is way too much unsound spending, saving and buying practices existing in our economy. If so, no amount of positive thinking can right that, only sound living and thinking.
Hey, we just might need some rich business people to help rejuvenate this economy. By some standards, a few of the posters in this thread just might qualify as rich.
[ October 20, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: David Wright ]
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2787 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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I LOVE IT....thank you cam, doug and dave. we are all inteligent individuals here, and any political beliefs SET ASIDE, i agree that govt(left, right, conservative, liberal,demo/repub) is the bigger problem within. as for MY ECONOMY, ive got all the work i want....yes this is going to be a good year for me(total income)best ive had since i moved here in 98. 2000 and 2001 were my worst. i also agree with those that say you are responsible for your own ECONOMY. if you get out and sell yourself and your business, then you can make money. in some areas of world, this wont help. i see in the news BOEING, AT&T, INTEL etc. are laying people off, they are not making any money so this inturn affects those areas where the workers live. so if there is non working people then your area is in a "recession". others are in a boom. and no matter what you do, is gona make any diff....untill the money flow is back to what it was. doug, i was in maui and took one of the bus tours the guy said something about buying homes there, that $300,000 was a median price for most homes. and something about you never own the land, it belongs to the people and you just lease it..am i close?
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think it was Mises (Ludwig von, 18??, founder of the Austrian school of economics) who wrote that "recession is the means by which the market returns capital to its rightful owners." The idea is that in an economic expansion, capital (money, goods and information) is invested in a wide- ranging variety of enterprises. Some of them are efficient, cost-effective and productive; some are not. Eventually, the amount of capital invested in non-productive or inefficient enterprises begins to siphon capital from its "rightful owners", those who ARE efficient and productive. Starved for capital, those enterprises produce less goods and services, which creates less wealth, which tightens credit. Investors begin demanding repayment; inefficient or non-productive enterprises either fold or reform their practices. Either way, eventually capital is returned to its rightful owners, who are defined as those who make the most valuable and efficient use of their resources.
That's the theory, and it works remarkably well, left alone. The problem is, it is never left to function on its own; enter political considerations. A company with political connections - in the real world, almost any large business or corporation - uses those connections to seek some form of "protection" from market forces. It's easier to beg and deal for political favors than it is to operate efficiently; every MBA graduate from every university is taught how to do so, at the expense of learning real-world economics and reality-based business practices. The result is the grotesque spectacle of an Enron or a Tyco or an Arthur Anderson, groveling before its political masters, trying to excuse its behavior to the political class that made that very behavior a requirement in the first place. They call this capitalism - but it's nothing of the kind. Capitalism dies with every subsidy, campaign-contribution, or political "fix" that shields corporations - or individuals - from the economic consequences of their actions.
So who are the genuine "capitalists" of a so-called capitalist economy? It's anyone who operates a business without some sort of government intervention to shield them from the consequences of their behavior. In other words, folks, it's all of US. The small business person who has no option but to operate efficiently, make responsible choices, and live in the real world. For us there's no safety net, no big accounting firm to cook the books and swindle investors, no congressman on the payroll to make sure we get a contract, or fix our prices to guarantee a profit, or squeeze a competitor out of our market. We are the REAL capitalists - we live, work, and do business in a market that isn't rigged according to the political manipulation of the moment.
The satisfaction of being part of this elite group - and we are an elite - is that we succeed or fail according to our own choices and our own efforts, not according to who's campaign we paid for or who's arse we kissed for a favor. We make our money the old-fashioned way: we earn it, every damn dime of it, and we do it with our integrity and our competence. We don't have to. Any or all of us can go get a job whoring our skills to some corporate pimp, but for most of us, the price - that being our self-respect - is waay to steep.
So, as an answer to the question, how does the economy as a whole affect us? Only as much as we allow it to. If, as I quoted at the beginning of this diatribe, a recession is the return of capital to its rightful owners, and if its rightful owners are those who operate efficiently and with integrity, therefore, to that extent, we are recession-proof. But like everything else in life, the outcome depends on the cumulative effect of small decisions made every day. To make those decisions properly, we have to be able to think. To think we have to see the world as it is, not through the distortion of the endless smokescreen and bull****e coming from our political class and their corporate-media ankle-biters. They operate by setting up false premises, by manipulating our emotions, by blaming it all on the "rich" or on "extremists" or the "excesses of the free market", or whatever bogeyman-du-jour suits their purposes - but the purpose is to distract you while they pick your pocket and infringe on your liberty. That part of it never changes, the rest is window-dressing.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Cam, you make a lot of sense. Did I altready try to nominate you for president? if not you got my vote.
OP my $300,000.00 house came with a deed to the land. I think, like anywhere else the deed is only good as long as the power structure that created & required the deed is still in power. Personally I don't believe completely in land ownership (a throwback to my afore-mentioned anti-establishmentarism) but as part of "playing the game" having "my" land secures me a place where no other game-players can kick me off. You must have been talking to a Hawaiian. Since the circumstances of Hawaii becoming part of our Nation are suspect (as is, of course, so much of our history)There is a strong sovreignty movement here wanting to "take it back"
David. Why don't people go spend as usual, thus solving allot of our economic issues? Fear. Ignorance. Doubt.
OP. Here is my opinion on action, and reaction. Everything happens for a reason.
Why did Boeing Lay off so many employees? Supply and demand. you can't justify paying people when the demand for your products have dropped. Why have they dropped? Airlines are obviously not placing as many orders as they had projected. Why are the airlines not buying as many new aircraft? They are not selling as many tickets. Why are they not selling as many tickets? Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. Ignorance.
When I say Ignorance I am not speaking of anyone personally. I just mean people don't always understand why things around them are happening ( I for one admit to knowing very little of the world I live in, just lack of actual experience ( I'm only 28 ) but I'm definitly learning more every day). It takes time to see for yourself, apply logic, and experience, and a little learned wisdom and knowledge to realize how and why life is the way it is.
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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You would not beleive the amount of $80,000-$4,000,000 yachts down here. Yacht slips are going for $1,000,000+ here.
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