So...on to a really important facet of the sign biz...what to charge.
I've got a few scant bits of information about what the competition is getting...but not much. I must be a lousy detective. Anyway, all I've heard is that sermon about how I shouldn't let the competition set my prices.
I've got my copy of EstiMate and I really think it's cool. But no matter what slider I adjust in what combination, I never can get the thing to quote what my friend paid for a 2 X 10 sign he bought down the road. I just can't get it up to $600. So I surely don't want to ask $450 through EstiMate when I could get a lot more. A pair of magnetics quoted out at $20. I found out the cheapest shop in town charges $30.
So I get out the Sign Contractor's Pricing Guide. And scratch my head for a while. It looks like the prices are double or something, but I never found a price for magnetics that looked normal, which was what my first customer wanted.
On the one hand, I'm really happy that I have leeway in this business to charge what I think my work is worth, but I like ball park figures, and I think my customers would appreciate it as well.
I've read some of the "philosophy" of how to price. Don't let the competition set your prices, don't multiply by cost, etc...I got that. I'm not shy to ask top dollar. I just don't know how to figure out what that is.
-------------------- Penny Baugh Lee Edmund Spyro Design Group
Spyro Graphics 3458 Main Street, East Fort Payne, AL 35968
posted
Hi Penny....for years I used the 1/3 pricing method. Take your cost for materials then times by three. That doesn't always work anymore, but still does occasionally. I have the Sign Contractors pricing guide, and Mark Roberts signprice.com guide which has helped me tremendously. I am a mobile sign business, and to have price guides to take along is always helpful. You will learn quickly which signs to raise your prices on and which ones you just don't even want to deal with. I get upset at times, when I hear the low prices some sign shops charge...but after shaking my head in disbelief....I usually laugh because they are not doing anybody a favor, especially themselves. Charge high...and you will be happier. When I had my shop, I tried too hard to be in the ballpark with all the other billions of shops, 'Til one day I 'woke up' and didn't want to play that game anymore.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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i start out at $75 for a pair of magnetics. i start out at $250 for a single sided .040 aluminum sign. for a 2 sided 10 mill aluma-core sign i start at $400. if i furnish pvc post i start at $600. hope this helps
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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There are a number of factors that can cause EstiMate to price low including your markups on materials and your market level. EstiMate is designed to price on true time and materials, taking into account factors like your hourly rate, how fast your shop works, and cost/markup on materials.
Usually by addressing one or more of these things, EstiMate will give prices more to your liking.
If you could provide more specifics we could look at options to get your pricing where you need it. You are welcome to contact me directly if desired.
Regards,
--Johnathon
-------------------- Johnathon Bakan EstiMate Software 19 Zillicoa St. Suite 350 Asheville, NC 28803 jbakan@estimatesoftware.com Posts: 12 | From: Asheville, NC | Registered: Jan 2002
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been doin this for over 15 yrs. i use the sq.ft. pricing. main rule is NOTHING FOR LESS THEN $5.00 SQ.FT. if your doin small signs, under 5-6 s.f. minimum is $10 s.f. do the magnetics that way, 12"x24" x 2= 4 sq.ft. 4 x $10=$40, so if you do plain simple one color at $40 you can make a little money. i start magnetics at $60, and then add for artwork or logos. doing the sq.ft. way is easy cause you can figure in your head, like the 2x10 sign, 2x10=20 sq.ft, 20 x $10= $200, if your doin this same sign on corplast cut it in 1/2 or @ $5 sq. ft. and that would be $100. if your doing the same sign on sintra or alumilite go up on your price by what the material costs. NEVER BUY MATERIAL FOR A SIGN AND GIVE IT AWAY!!! i also paint walls and windows, and i charge $4.00 sq.ft. when i do that. but i find working on the $10 sq.ft. to get "ballpark", makes pricing easy for me. so figure at $10 sq.ft. and never go below $5 sq.ft. and you will be in line with most sign shops.(there are some out there way below this) 2'x6' banners for $25, yard signs, 18"x24" coro for $10,truck door lettering for $45, magnetics for $29.00) they wont be around in the long run!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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The production time on a pair of magnetics, 12" X 24" is 14 minutes on a difficulty level of 32%. Can an experienced sign maker do it in that time? That seems very fast, maybe because I'm new at this. Even so, if the design/layout was simple, I'd think a difficulty level of maybe around 10% would be ample. But at 10% you're down to allowing only 6 minutes. Yikes!
-------------------- Penny Baugh Lee Edmund Spyro Design Group
Spyro Graphics 3458 Main Street, East Fort Payne, AL 35968
posted
no Penny my market does not include Atlanta. i live in a town of about 4000 people 60 miles norh of atlanta & 20 miles from athens. ther are about 12 sign shops in a 10 mile radius
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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EstiMate takes a lot of its production time calculations from the vinyl coverage slider, so when pricing a sign be sure to set it at 85% which will cover your vinyl and waste for most signs.
If EstiMate appears to be pricing too low across the board or showing production times that are too low, then you may consider raising your Production Time Seed value also. This is done by clicking Management > Configure EstiMate > Minimums. The default of 1-1/2 hours is a good starting point but if production times are consistently low, you may wish to use 2 or even 2-1/2 hours here. Changing the seed value will raise production times for the entire program.
I hope you'll hang in there with EstiMate, I think with a little effort it can be a valuable tool that will be a great asset to your business.
Again, if I can be of further assistance please contact me.
Regards,
--Johnathon
-------------------- Johnathon Bakan EstiMate Software 19 Zillicoa St. Suite 350 Asheville, NC 28803 jbakan@estimatesoftware.com Posts: 12 | From: Asheville, NC | Registered: Jan 2002
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My hourly rate is $60 per hour shop minimum is $25 wall work is $15 per sq (this INCLUDES lift rent) 12x18 (1)color set mags $60 4x8 AlumaCore $10 per sq ft=$320 So.....all in all $1.oo per min./$10.oo per sq ft is enough for me to pay for materials,pay for wages,pay the bills. Hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Penny, the flaw in the logic of finding market price is, the market is irrational. The very best,well established,sign people can set their prices where they want and get all the work they want. At the other end of the spectrum are the folks working 80 hours a week because they don't have the business sense to charge enough to make a living in 40 hours.
What I think works is, for any given type of sign, think about what would happen profit wise if you only did that one type of sign day in and day out. If your price will earn you the living you want, then your price is ok, and vice versa.
OP just said the same thing, only he said it in numbers.
Last Saturday some of us were talking about pricing and profitablity. Larry Mitchell was there and he had a great quote, something to the effect - "There may not be enough business at the right price, but there's always too much business at the wrong one"
EstiMate will give you good answers once you get it tuned to your style.
One man's opinion. Good luck! Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Penny I posted a reply about that truck lettering job you asked me for info at the design cost page. Really would like to help you more feel free to give me a call at 207-583-2782. Please consider these few things... is this a hobby? Do you want to have a retirement fund? Are you just hoping to make a little money and pay the bills? On this subject I have a very strong opinion, one of my best friends, mentor and the first and best sign teacher I ever had suffered a stroke at 61 years old..... over 50 years of tallent and signwork and not a dime to his name..... why? He never did figure out the price side of the trade.... never cared to. His competitor retired with a fat retirement and a life of leasure.... lousy at making nice signs but a pretty sharp businessman.
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
A couple of suggestions from personal experience: Start with your bookkeeping, the records of what it costs you to be in business the starting point for working out your hourly rate. Once you know per year what it costs you to keep the doors open, you can then start doing the sums. Mark made available a program recently to help calculate these costs and I'm sure he'll provide the url to download it if you ask him, or you can do a search of this bb for the previous post. I'd start from both ends of the equation with 3 questions.
A. How much does it cost me to keep the doors open?
B. How much do I realistically want to earn/year after costs?
C. How many hours can/do I realistically need to work?
Put simply {A+B}/C = hourly rate (not taking into account tax etc.)
The accuracy of the suggestion above is only as good as your records or estimations for a years trading. As for quoting each individual job, that then depends on the accuracy of your estimation of the time it will take to produce the job + materials/fixings etc. and margin you choose to apply. A large part of my work is subcontract and the one true constant I've seen, is that the guy who quotes by gut instinct is also the guy that relies on the money from the last job simply to pay for the next one. David
[ October 15, 2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: David Fisher ]
-------------------- David Fisher D.A. & P.M. Fisher Services Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com Trying out a new tag: "Parents are the bones on which children cut their teeth Peter Ustinov Posts: 1450 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Penny, We have been using Estimate for only a couple of months now. Very important that you go through the training cd several times. It is time consuming but very important. The web site will answer most any question not covered in the video. Between the training cd and the wealth of info on the estimate web site, we have not had to call their technical support once an we are getting very good results.
Has had an immediate and positive effect on cash flow/profit ratio. Take the time, and it does take time, to enter all the info in all areas carefully. May seem tedious and repeitive, but it very important to getting the most from estimate.
You may be a little shocked at some of the estimates you get, but if your input is accurate you can take a deep breath, print the estimate, hand it to the customer and know you are making a decent profit for your work.
No I don't work for Estimate... I am just just very impressed with the thoroughness of the program, the training cd, the web site info and the end result; Decent and fair profits for the shop, and reasonable and consitant prices to all the customers.
Irish
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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