posted
So we already did signgold vs. real gold and it seems the real gold won on larger prjects but could not compete on small jobs. well lets toss another product into the ring....
And in this corner Coburn Graphic Films Coburn has been making vinyl in a wide range of groovy colors and patterns for a long time. Recently they have added new products and a 5 year outdoor adhesive. They have a product called 'leaf' in florentine and in small engine turn available now with the outdoor adhesive. I just bought some florentine and held it up next to the Signgold.... looks identical!! aside from the pattern on SG being a tiny bit more defined. The price tag was the best part. 15" x 25' @ $68 was a big savings vs.39.99 per yard
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Hoping someone would chime in that has the facts, I have been told that the coburn stuff is NOT gold at all.
It is a cheap imitation to the real stuff, much like its earlier product that kept getting reformulated every time I went to order it.
Sign gold claims it is gold under tedlar and I'm sure it is but its the pattern that has bothered me, the spins are way too pronounced and you can see on a lot of jobs it is just too busy looking. You can't contol where your spins land either. We have sinced used another gold vinyl product that is hand spun and hand laid, looks way better, other than that its real gold.
[ October 11, 2002, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I guess I will say something! I used Sign Gold once.....................it turned to be one too many times. It looks so phony I can not stand looking at it! I guess I was taught laying Gold by one of the old masters, Al Bradt, from Elmira, NY. His work is in the Smithsonian! No one can beat the looks of a "real" gold job! SignGold ,or any of that other crap will never find its way into my shop.
AAAAHHHHHHHH................... back to work now!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I agree with Tony! Nothing beats the look of hand laid gold leaf! SignGold, and all the rest, are for amatuers!
Even "vinyl only" shops can do real gold leaf jobs using Rich Bustamantes methods...as outined in another post! If you use paint mask like Rih did, but use back up black , from Esoteric, then peel off the centers and lay on the gold, followed up with a balck backup, and finish with www window spar.....you would have a job that would rival the "masters"!!!!!
Don't believe me? Try it! You will be surprised how easy it is! Won't be long before you will be doing Glue Chip work and other "high end" jobs! Good way to increase your base of high profit work!!!!
[ October 11, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I just got the Coburn samples yesterday. The stuff does look sharp, but, with the gold, you really can't compare it to the real thing. I will add that R Tape runs the show at Coburn now. If R Tapes standards are being applied to Coburns products, I will feel comfortable using them.
Havin' fun, Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Phony Gold vinyl???.... best used on mailboxes!.... My girlfriend and I spent the summer touring Ontario and upstate N.Y. by motorcycle this summer and stopped at the big wooden boat show in Clayton, NY. Old Chris Crafts, Garwoods, Century's and the like. Boats from $20,000 to damn near a million I'm sure.... the most astounding thing and butt puckering aggravation to me was to see the crap that passed for lettering on some of these boats. Later at an antique bike show I saw a 1906 Thomas Moto-bike with beautiful and correct striping, and the damn name was lettered with this friggin sign gold ****!... the sign guy who did the work obviously had years of talent but resorted to using the computer and a cheap phoney gold alternative.... my gut is still in knots. Yes I have used the stuff myself for race cars and trucks that I needed to copy the other guys work on. One of the first things I tried to learn it the sign business was Gold leafing.... and still crave the times when I can do it.... learn more about it.... and reap the rewards of a fine Gold Leaf job.
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
Much as I hate to admit it, I find situations where SignGold is more durable and the stuff without the engine turning is not that far different than a gilded job where the leaf was applied too soon. The other gold appearing vinyls that I've tried have looked like verigated leaf after six months and after a year or two got dark or cracked. Coburns films are novelty stuff and I would not want to depend on them.
Do any of you find it funny how they give something that was invented six months ago a five year rating? They put a piece in a box and dial up certain elements to claim they simulated five years worth of weather changes and warming and cooling.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6817 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I am also not a fan of SignGold I used the flourintine pattern on my pickup about a year and a half ago and I peeled it back off a month later it was way too dark and looked awfull and way too expensive I won't be using it again at least not the flourintine pattern!
posted
i didnt mean to start a SG bashing post, I was simply comparing the 2 products signgold florentine $39.99 per yard Coburn florentine $68.00 for 25'
I put the 2 side by side, I dont think either one is real gold but thet are identical
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
What gilding process does the Florentine swirl pattern mimick? Don't say Florentine swirl! I've just never seen a real gold job with this pattern. Is there such a thing?
posted
I have nothing but good things to say about SignGold. I use it quite often, and have only had 1 failure: my own van. I didn't seal the edges and after a year it started to discolor. I always seal the edges now.
I've sold a ton of SignGold jobs just from customers seeing my van. Granted, a real gilded job looks much better, IMHO, but for the money and ease of application, SignGold is a great product.
I charge more money for gilding, but some customers are just as happy with SignGold, if not more so. It's not cheap, but there is definitely good money to be made. Besides, when you have people like Karen Souza and Rich Dombey singing it's praises, there must be something to it.
As far as the Florentine swirl goes, it's my best seller. Customers are constantly choosing it over any of the others. And I have them all in stock.
BTW, I've never heard of Coburn.
[ October 12, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Mike Kelly ]
-------------------- Mike"Spud"Kelly zipperhead design Westminster, MA Posts: 367 | From: Westminster, MA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I HAVE to put in my 2cents - Signgold, when some time & thought is used makes a beautiful job - many customers should NOT have real gold because they DON'T care for it properly - I would rather have a happy long term Signgold customer, than a short term ****ed off traditional gold customer. Remember it's not always about what we like best but what's best to fill the customer's wants and needs. I LOVE the look of real gold, but it takes little to ruin it on a truck! About Coburn stuff - simply said... DON'T - I wouldn't use it if it were free! JUST DON'T!! Karen Souza
signgold works in it's place, and so does goldleaf. how can you compare the two? things that work indoors, don't work outdoors, it depends on the lettering's environment and what kind of precautions one takes to protect it from the elements.
posted
I have to say that gold leaf on a truck door will last a long time if cleared with Imron. I have done gold leaf lettering on a demo door that was taken to trade shows and people were asked to beat on it with a large rubber mallet, just to prove how tough it was.
And even though I love gold, I do believe there is a place for signgold as well, just not in MY shop !!!
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Jeff..I agree that a hand gilded job that is THEN sprayed with Imron or any other urethane clearcoat would be extremely durable!!!
Only question I have is..How many customers, most of whom will be trading in their vehicles (including rubber mallet marked doors) within 3 or 4 years, want their doors sprayed with a clear coat that will require a grinder job to kinda, sorta, maybe restore the door to "original"?
SignGold is definitely not like hand gilded..and neither is a repainted door after it had to be ground down and repainted to get rid of sign stuff.
Each process has it's place.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Hiya Heads, I finally read up on the Coburn material samples I received last week.
This is taken from their own printed media: DURABILITY Indoor Long-term for most applications. Outdoor Limited, typically six to 12 months, depending on the application. Exceptionally harsh UV and wet conditions can shorten exterior life. However exterior life can be extended by using a UV protective clear coating and edge sealer. Call R Tape for availability of long-term exterior versions. So, do your homework and like the others said, use the right material for the job.
Havin' fun, Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
First, I of course always prefer hand gilding for appearance and appeal. SignGold however, does have a place when it is an appropriate alternative for the customer and his appication. Since it is really 22K gold, it has the right color and shine which will not fade so the customer gets more value than with many other pressure sensitive materials. My issue with Coburn is having a fire truck come in with the lettering faded and peeling after a year. They were told that they were getting SignGold and they wanted us to warrenty it since the guy who did the job was out of business. I don't know about their new material but the earlier one was transparent tint gold vinyl with silver metallic backing and the transparent color was subject to quick fade. I have used may of their other materials for interior flashy or theatrical applicaitons with great success. Again, use the material that is appropriate and give your customer the value they expect and this will maintain some integrity for our industry.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
When I was subcontracting for a shop I had the opportunity to use LOTS of Sign Gold on furniture moving trucks. In my opinion, real gold would not have "won" in a contest against sign gold for this large job.
We put close to $1000.00 worth of sign gold on each truck, on both sides, back door, above the cab and on the cab doors. You can't beat it for speed. Time savings compared to traditional methods are quite a difference.
This is the back door picture. The picture of the side I cannot show here because I haven't asked permission of the two other people in the picture but if anyone is interested in seeing it I can email it. The letters on the sides were about 30" high. Yes, there was a seam but the customer didn't object.
No, it's not the same look as a professionally done by hand gold job, but there is less technique involved. If you can stick vinyl, you can use sign gold.
When doing a fleet of vehicles, there will tend to be more uniformity in the look over the entire fleet because the little variations introduced by hand outlining or hand painting the size, will not be present in the sign gold job. For some customers who are particular, this matters. This particular customer sent a truck back to the body shop that just painted it, (before lettering) to be repainted because the brown was "not quite the same shade as the other trucks".
The one thing that has ALWAYS bothered me about Sign Gold - well a few things really...
First imagine cutting huge letters on this stuff and weeding (and throwing away) literally hundreds of dollars worth of it. It's just about impossible to save any of it in a manner that results in it being useful.
Don't ever make the mistake of walking on the clear backing which you have removed and tossed on the floor or on your scaffold. It's SO SLIPPERY it's a hazard.
The adhesive on Sign Gold is VERY agressive and once it sticks, most of the time you cannot pop it off and reposition it without ruining that piece.
The other thing is, if it's really REAL 22k GOLD, why is the back of it SILVER COLOR?
-------------------- EmpY Mayo Pardo #138 South Elgin, IL. Posts: 436 | From: South Elgin, IL | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: Only question I have is..How many customers, most of whom will be trading in their vehicles (including rubber mallet marked doors) within 3 or 4 years, want their doors sprayed with a clear coat that will require a grinder job to kinda, sorta, maybe restore the door to "original"?
Good point Dave, but.........
when customers bring up trade in when I am selling a job I simply point out that they're thinking of the end even before its begun, And thier focus is in the wrong place. They're thinking of saving money instead of making money. It's kinda like planning your divorce before your marriage.
If my lettering doesn't bring them enough business or make them enough money to pay for a repaint over and over again then I haven't done my job have I?
So the trade in senerio carries no weight with me!
Just my 2.5 cents, carry on!!! lol
[ October 16, 2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
We use this stuff a lot. www.lionet.com I like the pattern verses SignGold. In SignGold, the pattern is just too uniform. This is the product that had been discussed on the www.4edgetalk.com board.
To each their own! Some folks like pickles, some don't, use what you like and what works for you.
[ October 15, 2002, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: Michael Berry ]
-------------------- Mike Berry New England Posts: 534 | From: New England | Registered: Jan 2002
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