posted
A man ordered a set of 24x12 magnetics for his truck. His mother calls 11 days later to tell me that they won't stick. I asked her if they were sticking and then falling off and she said that they weren't sticking at all. They did not bring the truck when the order was placed. I asked her if the truck doors were fiberglass or something else besides steel...she didn't know.
She said she tried them on her refrigerator and they stuck fine and tried them on her brother's S-10 and they stuck but "not too good". I told her to make sure that the mags were not laid on anything besides a flat surface. They were given an instuction/care sheet with the new magnets.
She said that they spent about $75 for the mags (they were actually 64.19 with tax) and wanted their money back. I said to bring them back, I would look at them, if they are not damaged or distorted and will not stick to my truck, I will make it right. I might just offer to letter directly on the truck instead of the refund.
What would you do?
[ October 04, 2002, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
If they ordered magnets & they stick to the fridge, they got what they paid for. What they don't stick to is not your problem. You can offer to letter the doors, but not at a discount unless they return the magnets, & stiil, no reason to letter it free unless they are important long standing customers.
Also you could sell them adhesive backed "rubber-steel" as a magnetic receptive surface to mount on the doors, but if it's a nice truck they probably wouldn't go for that. If they wanted magnets to be anynomous at times, letter the rubber-steel on the door, then cover the magnets with a color that mmatches their truck.
posted
I had one like this once, turned out both doors were full of body filler. I re-cut the graphics and put them on direct (simple job – no great cost to me). Customer seemed to prefer that to my other suggestion; chisseling out the filler!
Arthur
Impressed with Doug's suggestion, didn't know about s/a steel.
[ October 04, 2002, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Arthur Vanson ]
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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I've sold a lot of mags off that same roll and no complaints until now. I certainly don't consider it our fault but still want the customer to be happy. Interesting...where do you get this rubber steel?
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Nope..........they won't stick to "Bondo" either.
You're right, I've already spent the time on the layout/fonts etc. Might as well letter the truck and be done with it. Next time I won't sell any more mags unless the truck is on hand to test first.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
I had this happen once a few years ago, but on the back of a van. Doors were steel, back door was fiberglass. Put it on there, and ZOOOOOOOOP! Slid right down to the ground. Just this summer a customer who I do alot of work for had me cut magnetic material to cover the lettering on his pickup. Said when he and his brother went to the bar, they didnt want anyone to see the company truck.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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My customer liked to wax his truck, EVERY weekend. It seems some of the wax even found it's way on to the back of the mag. Manufacturer said to much wax, was creating an air gap?!
We took the magnetics back, lettered directly on his truck at no charge. Kept the magnetics as samples, and low & behold, when he bought a new truck, we lettered the tailgate and re-sold him the old magnetics.
-------------------- Bruce & Deb Newton Graphic Lettering San Marcos, CA Posts: 126 | From: San Marcos, CA | Registered: Sep 2001
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We try our best to talk a person out of lettering a set of magnetics with every horror story there is.
They blow off, they get stolen, they dont stick to some doors, the scratch the paint, in cold weather they break, they cost more, yada yada yada.
However, when and if they are determined to have magnetic signs, we make sure they know there is no refund, no guarentees, zip! They are on their own.
------------------------
-------------------------- Wrong comment of the day: "You get more money to letter directly on the truck than for a set of magnetic signs". -------------------------- Better do the math if you want to stay in busines, Stephen.
Lettering a magnetic sign is MORE expensive because you have the added cost of the magnetic material, which you do not have when lettering directly on the door. (Given the same size of sign is made, all other costs are the same: set up, cuting, weeding, application tape, and install.
[ October 05, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
if it is for an 18 wheeler the doors are probably aluminum.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dave, re cost of lettering mags vs doors, yes you do have the cost of the magnetic material, but the application time is much quicker with material on your work table. It always takes longer to line up the graphics on the vehicle - trying to find something to measure off of and align with seems to be getting harder.
Price of lettering mags and doors are probably about the same. However, there is the perceived value of lettering directly onto the vehicle. It doesn't have that "temporary" look, and of course you can do more because the "canvas" is bigger.
Like you, we discourage the use of magnetics unless the customer is REALLY going to use them occasionally. Once we explain the differences, especially the perception of their customers that their business will be seen as professional and established, they see no reason to go magnetics. It's generally the customer's PERCEPTION that magnetics will be cheaper and that's why they ask for them. I've probably only sold one set of mags in the past several years - everyone buys into direct lettering once the benefits are outlined and they find there's no significant price difference.
posted
18 wheeler doors are aluminum? This truck is an 18 wheeler but, like I said, I never saw it so don't know what make. Have had a couple of requests for mags to go on 18 wheelers and they stuck just fine. Evidently, some are aluminum and some must be steel. Most people letter them directly. I don't know why they wanted mags.
The lady said: "they won't stick to the truck at all".... "I tried them on the refrigerator and they stick just fine".... "they stuck to the S-10 but not too good". The initial impression I got was that her complaint was that I had sold her a defective product. When she came to pick them up she saw them on my easel, stuck fast to a perfectly flat piece of .026 steel, with the magnetic sign instruction sheet slipped behind one of them. Therefore, the magnetic signs were working as they were supposed to.
My mistake is assuming that everyone who made it to sixth grade has some working knowledge of basic physics and that magnets only stick to ferrous metals like, you know, STEEL.
[ October 05, 2002, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
older 18 wheelers were steel newere ones are aluminum or fiberglass.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Duhhhh....doesn't anyone ever ask: "What kind of vehicle are these magnetic signs going to be intalled?"
I am lucky to make one set of mags a year! And those are usually for some Real Estate lady who only use them when showing clients some new property! I am not in the $39.95/ pair biz!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Yeah Si......and they said a truck! The lady doesn't know what they're made of.....just that the mags won't stick.
I can probably count on one hand the number of magnets we sell a year too. Mine start at $60 for 24x12 with one color text. I take the time to choose appropriate typestyles(usually two) proritize the copy and layout so that they can be READ. Logos and extra colors cost extra. I've got 'em on both sides of me selling for about $25 a set. They ain't layed out right, all the copy is one size, stretched, condensed and you can't read 'em but that don't seem to be important. Just so the price is cheap.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
I've sold many sets of magnetics at $200/pair & up for 12" x 24"
quote: Better do the math if you want to stay in busines, Stephen.
Lettering a magnetic sign is MORE expensive because you have the added cost of the magnetic material, which you do not have when lettering directly on the door. (Given the same size of sign is made, all other costs are the same: set up, cuting, weeding, application tape, and install.
Dave, your missing the most important "math" in Stephen's post. Stephen CHARGES more for lettering direct! That is a better way to stay in business anyway. Like Diane said magnetic layout is also quicker. Another factor I take into account is I am a one man shop & anything I do during the day, is best if I am able to stop in the middle, take all calls, walk-ins, high-dollar rush jobs, & even run urgent errands, or go back & forth to other jobs to keep machines running etc. To schedule a vehicle for installs takes time to plan, wastes time when plan changes, interupts my freedom to make other plans, & usually doesn't allow me to stop for very long & deal with other potentially profitable calls & walk-ins. Therefore I too, make more on lettering direct to vehicles, since I base the price on making more sacrifices to do them.
[ October 05, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Dave, I don't think I was debating any "point" that you did or didn't "get" or "make".
You made a response to Stephen's post by quoting the following comment of his with your own few words attached.
quote: Wrong comment of the day: "You get more money to letter directly on the truck than for a set of magnetic signs".
The rest of your response to him regarding his "doing the math if he wants to stay in business" seemed to imply that remembering to account for $3 worth of magnetic material was what sets the savvy businessman apart from those destined for failure.
Now you're talking about selling a magnet for more then a decal. Stephen was talking about "lettering directly on a truck"
Although when he said "you get more..." I don't think he meant "you" Dave, but you have established the fact that he was in fact "Wrong", if he did.
Beyond the $3 worth of material, additional layout time on a vehicle was brought up, & I simply wanted to add some additional factors that could justify why someone could "get more money lettering directly on a truck"
[ October 06, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
It costs me about $4.60 for a set of two 24x12 mags. That's $1.15 per sq. ft. before markup.
Mags are quicker to make, I don't have to prep the truck. I don't have to spend time making sure they're aligned perfectly on the door. And, they cost only $4.60 more material to make. Mine start at $60/set for plain text and no logos/graphics. If one tried to sell the same magnetic signs HERE for $200 or even $100, your roll of magnetic material would sit in the corner of the shop until archaeologists find it one day. That's just a fact. I have sold a few for about $100 but they had logos etc.
I charge more for direct lettering. Direct lettered graphics usually take up more space, look better and more professional, won't blow off, won't ruin the paint etc. etc. Vinyl text on truck doors starts at $75.00. These are usually for "log trucks" and such. Drop shadows, outlines, special vinyl, logos cost extra. DOT numbers start at $20.00
[ October 07, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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My clothes dryer went on the fritz and my wife is all over me to fix it...and I don't have a clue how.
I call the repair man, he comes out, says a $15 part will fix it, and in less than 15 minutes it was fixed. Wife was happy.
The cost was $79.00! Now I ask you...when this repair man comes down to your shop to order a set of magnetic signs, don't feel so bad about charging him a little more than $60.00.
[ October 07, 2002, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
Dave, If a Hindu holyman hitch-hikes in barefoot, wearing rags and carrying a bedroll under his arm the magnetic signs start at $60. If a gangster comes to my shop in a chaufered stretch limo and wearing a three piece suit and 10 carat diamomd ring, my mags still start at $60.......unless his boys are packin' Uzzi's.......then the mags are on the house.
BTW, I had to fix my own dryer a few months ago. It was the serpentine belt which runs around the drum. My Wife picked up the belt at Lowe's for about 6 or 8 bucks and it took me about 15 minutes to install.
[ October 08, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Instead of working with a limited space of 12"x24 or whatever.. I can increase the money by outputing (As Dianne said) more Graphics..Handlettered,Vinyl,Airbrushing on the customers (Canvas!) Vehicle.
So were did I go wrong in my statement?
There is to many health hazards to mags IE:
I have seen them bond to the metalwork of the vehicle and I mean Bond! because the person didn't take them of periodically.
Rusting because of moisture billed up between the 2 surfaces. NOT VERY NICE!
Stolen or blown off going down the road (Oh by the way,Insurance will not cover removeable Advertizing Items on your vehicle.)
And a set of mags here goes for around $90-$125 for the 2 doors or wherever. But I can start direct lettering at $200 and up for the graphics....
Works for me!
[ October 09, 2002, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Stephen, I'm glad you can get those prices for magnetics and direct lettering. If my shop was there my prices would be right up there with yours. Ours is the highest priced shop in this area but we couldn't get those prices unless someone strikes gold here or something.
I won't put mags on my vehicle for the reasons you described but since some people insist on them, I offer the service. We do give our customers a detailed instruction sheet with their new mags outlining the proper way to handle/install and periodic cleaning instructions.
I'm with you......I would rather letter the vehicle and do most of the time.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Make sure the vehicle is clean!!! Tell them you'll zip screw the magnetic right to their doors for no extra charge! Don't give in!!!
Anthony
-------------------- Anthony Nuzzolo South Shore Sign Co. Staten Island, NY stromboli_98@yahoo.com Posts: 26 | From: Staten Island, NY | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
That part has already been taken care of Anthony. I first checked out the magnets on a piece of .026 steel, my truck, and their car and then told them that there was nothing wrong with the mags. I told them that I would give them half credit on the mags if they agreed to let me letter the truck......and they can keep the mags. They said that was fair. I can live with it.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
I love magnetic material! I cut it up into squares and hold notes on my refrigerator. It works great! Haven't had a problem yet!
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Why magnetize the notes when you can direct-paint 'em? You can also roll it out on your bed or line your La-Z-Boy with it for magnetic-wellness-therapy.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
heres my story wayne and i am "sticking" to it! LOL
a few years back, i had a regular customer come by the shop with a brand new pontiac van.
she wanted a set of magnetics for her new vehicle, i said, "yes maam, let me take a few measurements of the door and i will make you a set.
i measured the door, and she gave me a check and said, "thank you mark!"(she is a nice lady.)
i made the mags and she came by to pick them up and me being the great sign service guy i am said,
"let me get some cleaner and paper towels and apply them for you."
you guys know what happened, they went "ZOOOOOOOOP!" just like my buddy john deaton said:) (john i can see one of your toons here!!!!!!!! hahahahahahahaha)
anyway, to make a short story longer, i told her she did not owe me one red cent for those mags! being a good soul (and a nice lady) she said, "mark, don't worry about it, i have an old chevy van i can put them on!
the SignGods were watching over me that day.
mark
p.s. from that day forward i never assume the vehicle is made of metal, i have a small square of magnetic sheeting that i always test with.
maybe next time while taking an order over the phone for magnetics, ask the question,
"is your vehicle fiberglass or metal?"
we all learn from our mistakes, and believe me i have made a few!
posted
Wayne, I think you did the right thing to negotiate a deep discount and charge for the door lettering. Your customers leave happy, and that is what counts in the long run. An unhappy customer (even if it is his/her own fault) is the LOUDEST and WORST advertising known to business. Good negotiating.
I did exactly the same thing this summer with a banner. Customer ordered 'teal' lettering. I got the sketch approval by fax, and (I admit) did not inquire for a more accurate color description - such as a pms number. Customer needed a different color, and I gave her a couple of options, one of which was to get a deep discount on replacing the banner with a new one, but she could keep the one that was the wrong color. That is what she did. Of course the second banner went faster anyways since the sales and design part of the job was already done.
We try our best to talk a person out of lettering a set of magnetics with every horror story there is.
They blow off, they get stolen, they dont stick to some doors, the scratch the paint, in cold weather they break, they cost more, yada yada yada.
However, when and if they are determined to have magnetic signs, we make sure they know there is no refund, no guarentees, zip! They are on their own.
Ditto, I do the same thing. I've found that more often than not, the customer that asks for magnetic signs is doing so out of ignorance and really doesn't have a need for them. I tell everyone that calls wanting mags that if there isn't a need to take them off frequently, they would be much better off with the graphics applied directly to the vehicle.
BTW, I haven't checked in here for a while, I hope everyone is doing well.
posted
Interesting, huh? The person that wants the money back is not the one that ordered the signs. The signs were made to order and worked fine. They neglected to find out what was best for their needs and expect someone else to pay for their thriftiness. Another aspect I find interesting is perceived value. We get more than twice as much to do the same job on a truck as we get for mags. The mags cost more to do and requier the same time to do them. Should your kids pay for their mistake?
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6730 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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