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Hello all, here's the latest in the everlasting and ever-ongoing sign ordinance issue from my city.
This thing has been kicked around for over three years now. After this last SOLID year of committee meetings, looking at many, many other ordinances, visiting nearby cities and towns to view first hand the success and failures of working ordinances, we are getting close to actually taking this thing to the city for approval.......
BUT!
We have a couple of issues to deal with. "City Staff" (should always be followed by "infection") has made some changes that some do not agree with. This is where you come in. I need your view on the following:
One of the problems that we had noticed before a sign ordinance is that there was not consistency in the issue of when to turn off lighted signs. A "Dollar Store" was built a couple of years ago and the deal from the Plan Commission at the time was that they had to shut off all lighted signs at the close of the business day. A florist up the street closes at 5:30 and is allowed (by the same Plan Commission) to shut their lights of at 9:30. A tanning place a few more doors down has no set time to shut of the lighted sign and this again was approved by the same group. No Consistency.
Now comes the question as to what is fair and equitable to the business community. Solutions have been to turn of lighted signs at the close of business day. Turn off lighted signs 2 hours after close of business day. All lighted signs off at midnite. Don't do anything until someone complains.
The last issue first: City says if we do not have anything on the books, complaints can not be dealt with accordingly.
Most businesses here close from 4:30 to 7:00 unless they are a restaurant, gas station, bar, and maybe a couple of others. Shutting down the lights at the close of business day (and daylight savings time is around the corner) will make the downtown area look dead and non-productive. This is NOT what the business community wants to see, or rather, this is not the image that the business community wants to display. Turning off the lights 2 hours after close of business day gives the business added advertising opportunity along with maintaining a better image for the downtown area, but then you have the same problem as before only delayed 2 hours.
Turning things off at Midnite or 1:00am would work better for the business community - but now you have the issue of "residents that live in the apartments over the businesses" should not have to see those signs on all night.
My feeling is that the people that live in that area knew full well that it was a BUSINESS DISTRICT that they moved into. Lights, odors and noise along with greater activity are abundant in that area. I also think that some of those residents feel a greater measure of security with better or more lighting.
A car dealership owner called me this morning. He stated that he has shoppers in his lot 24 hours a day. This he can support because of his surveillance cameras and word from the local police. The feeling with these large lots whether they are a car lot or a shopping center is to provide a greater sense of security for the customer.
I can't make these arguments to the Sign Ordinance committee anymore. Oh, I can, but I think they feel that I'm kind of biased - I make lighted signs. So now, my campaign is to engage some of the business community that have not gotten involved so far. I need fresh perspectives on this topic.
What do you suggest? What is the situation in your community, city or town? How did you solve these problems and what argument would YOU use to keep the business district looking productive and yet, take into consideration residents that may be offended by extra lighting at night?
By the way, I'm now ON the Plan Commission. Shoot your mouth off a few times and you get appointed. I have a meeting on this subject Monday night. Any replies are greatly appreciated. I really want YOUR perspective on this as a sign maker and business owner.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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If the one's who are complaining don't like the light, tell them they can move their butts out. "If you don't like the heat in the kitchen, get the hell out!" There are always the a.h.'s that want to run everyone else's lives and think that they know what is best for the lot. What a bunch of pios bastards. We have them here also.
If you get the idea that this sort of thing really gets my dandruff up, well guess what, you're right!
We have a guy here that is on the city council and is trying get a sign ordinance passed. That little weasel has one of the junkest yards in the residential areas and his business isnt much better. But, oh, he's knows what is best for the rest of us.
Just my 2 cents.
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I don't think sign lighting should be regulated. If someone wants to be open after dark, no one should be telling them when to turn off their lights. Around here there are several all nite stores that are lit up all night. Also certain businesses may want to stay lit for security reasons; is someone going to tell them they can't do that?
The businesses themselves will self regulate the issue too, since most will opt to turn off lights for power savings. I personally feel a little safer driving around town when there are a few places lit up here and there. Got to have those "city lights" once in a while....
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Now is the time for the Chamber of Commerce to get involved!. Sounds like all the businesses are complaining, but not being active...like the nutcases are. The Chamber will present a united front to the City Council! City "Staff" will dink around with the ordanaces as long as they are permitted...after all...they look like they are being useful...and it gives them a sense of power!
Bypass everyone, and rewrite it the way you want it, THEN present it to the City, with The C of C backing you!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
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"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Si: you are exactly right on target! Our Chamber of Commerce has gone through and is still going through a transition from "those guys that put on the easter egg hunt" to an actual Chamber of Commerce. The Chamber is only as strong as its members. The officials of the Chamber are VERY interested in this subject... not only because it's a great way to REALLY become(for the first time) involved in the future of this small city, but because that is what they are supposed to do. Getting the businesses in to these public forum meetings is always like pulling teeth. Now that this thing has come to a point where some of them may actually feel threatened, I think more will actually voice an opinion.
I hope so. I am working toward that goal.
My post here was to try to get opinions from you folks based on what YOU know (more than me) and current or past experiences with this particular issue - Illuminated signs, direct and indirect and whether or not there should be a regulated time for turning them off.
My position is FOR the business community and giving the business community every advantage to be successful. If there is a creative way to do this, I would appreciate hearing what others have done or are doing now. I need ammunition for these meetings.
I DON'T want to be that guy on the City council that was mentioned above. I want to go in there informed and prepared to educate some of these other boneheads. Maybe I'm the bonehead!
Thanks!!!
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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Jeff, small towns all over America are trying to revive their old towns from the business lost to the big boxes. One way they are doing that is building housing close in and on top of the old town to provide a built in client base for downtown merchants. In the same vein, the people who live there are voters, and businesses are not, and part of the deal is merchants doing what is good for both the merchants and the voters. All of this is to say, the opinions of those who live in close is important and should be considered in any final decision. As a planner, your job is to represent the voters while being business friendly.
The real nub of the question is, how bright are the signs. If they are real honkin bright like the chicken sign in the old Seinfeld episode, then they need to be turned off at a reasonable time. If the sign is dark on the background and only the letters glow, then who cares?
To keep this short, I think the rule should be 10:00 pm subject to a variance by planning based on special conditions. Then you deal with the bright ones on a case by case basis.
As far as the car lots go, they need some light for security but not the whole shooting match. Nothing wrong with making them dim down after hours if they are anywhere close to residential.
One man's opinion. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Victor, good point. Many of the upper stories of the downtown business buildings have been converted to rental properties. Some of these buildings are owner occupied businesses and others are entirely rented and or leased as in the business owner is leasing that property. The building owner is in fact in the business of renting or leasing property. Business tax is also an important source of revenue for the city. The renters in those properties pay no property tax.
Back to lighting, There is a mix of internally lit and externally lit signs in the downtown business district. I can't seem to think of anything that is at this time glaring. There was one that seemed to offend some folks at the next door bank. The solution was for the bank to purchase the property to expand the bank facility and the first order of business was to remove the 32 square foot double faced projecting can and replace it with a wall mounted sign fixed with two spots that shine in the general direction of the face of the sign.
In scoping out many of the other ordinances, I find that limiting the amount of candle power from any type of lighted sign seemed to take care of the issue of too much light or too much glare. I would hope that we could adopt a similar formula. As it stands now, no internally lit signs will be allowed in the immediate "historic" downtown business district. Shining a spot on the sign face is OK. My issue with that is that some of these 150 watt lamps that some of these guys use tend to point in a different direction after a while... usually in the direction of oncoming traffic. I think that lighting has to be installed and maintained correctly. Who will police this? I also think that an internally lit sign can be designed in such a way as to be attractive and fitting for a historic district.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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Jeff, I'm knida amazed that you went for the planning commission gig. I've been asked many times and because I need to go before them with sign presentations, the obvious conflict of interest thing was the main deterant. One issue we have now with our current ordinance is that if there is a violation, the property owner gets a letter from the city. If the violation is on the part of the tennant, the owner writes them and requests compliance. If the tennant ignores the request, then what? I saw this situation yesterday. The tennant is McDonalds, and they continue to apply banners to an illegal structure in the roof. The property owner would be stupid to evict them, and would pay fines for violations if it got to that. I don't have a soultion for this, but there shoould be some aggressive response from the city toward the violator and not just the absantee landlord. As far as what time the lights go out....that should be determined by the personality of your community. Why is there a car dealership in the downtown zoning?
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6817 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The car dealership is not in the immediate downtown area. The question of when to turn out the lights covers the entire city. There are two dealerships on the north side of town on a main highway that comes in from Madison, WI. The one that I spoke to yesterday turns out his lights (sign lights) at 1:00am with a timer. There are still lot lights (like street lights) in that area. I don't know what time the other dealership turns them off.
Yeah, I debated with myself over taking the Plan Commission position. My main concern was not for me trying to get some sign approved but more for the fact that there are a TON of contractors in the area that I do business with. These guys come before the PC with new building requests all of the time. I wonder how many toes I'll step on. My appointment came after a newly appointed member (the guy that runs the local lumber yard) decided that it may not be in the lumber yard's best interest for him to be on the PC, so he stepped down and I stepped in.
Like any town, there are only a certain number of people that seem to be either stupid enough or have the balls enough to get involved in these issues. I figure that I'm far from being mentally equipped to understand all of it, so that's why I'm asking for opinions from a group (letterheads) that has been there and have had to deal with it on a daily basis.
Thanks!
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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When they started working on our downtown area a few years ago, they put in nice street lamps (the old metal style, not the telephone pole with a spotlight style) to lite up the streets at night. Maybe this is something to consider?
I've always been under the impression that the sign being lit means the store is open and darkened signs means it's closed. Parking lot lights stay on quite late here (malls, walmart) due to security reasons.
The car dealership at the edge of town has a lit sign that is turned out when they close but the pole lights stay on all night, which helps with security and makes the town not look so deserted.
I also know of a couple storefront businesses that turn out the main sign when they close and most of the inside lights. They also have lettering on the window and maybe a small light shining on that to identify the business and provide some light inside to deter criminals, but again back to the theory that "sign's on, they're open. Sign's off, they're closed."
Perhaps this is something to consider?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I think the price paid for lighted signing is such that the business wants their ad to be on all the time it's dark outside, open or closed it's their ad and they want it working 24/7.
Vic has a point - I've seen them so damn bright they'll blind you driving down the street. That and the design elements are the parts I, personally think the Sign Police should get involved in.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Folks that live in the city are there by choice. Cities make light that reflects into the sky. If someone enjoys seeing stars and dark skies, there are plenty of places that still offer this. Turning off sign lights around midnight seems logical to me in many places. Big cities where folks do stuff all night need their signs, while other towns go vacant by nine. This type of decision really needs consideration and definition of your community.
At our planning commission meetings, I see one of the building material suppliers needing to step down from too many proposals because he does business with these folks. I see way too many business connections for me to ever hold such a position. Glad you can do it, Jeff.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6817 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I can hoinestly say I have never been anywhere that regulates the time an illuminated sign can be on...(hope I never do)...in as much as there is no regulation on street lights (and we're all paying for them with our tax money) how can anyone be so "stupid" as to regulate someones livelyhood in such a manner?
You really need to move from this town before they put you in the booby hatch...(I would).
Most business's look at their power bill every month and regulate the time for themselves from an economic stand point.Since no one on the council is capable of determining how much any person benefits from the length of time their electric sign is on maybe their council meetings should be limited to ten minutes a week.
Just an idea!
Well good luck...
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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HA, HA! Thanks Monte! Maybe you are right... I should pack and run as fast as I can!
This one is is confusing and I'm sure to have more after this coming week's Plan and Council meetings. I always thought it was so funny when in previous "recommendations" from the city planner against allowing some lighted signs is that "our city maintains an effort to conserve energy"... meaning that he felt it was unneeded extra use of power to allow a lighted sign. Of course, I never heard anything when someone wanted to build a new house... were they going to use electricity in that house? Geez, don't think about running a refrigerator!
Like the CITY was paying the bill!
Politics. Man, what have I gotten myself into? Hey, there was even talk of a certain pallette of colors to be used in the downtown area. This got axed, thank god. There is a town 12 miles from here that DOES choose color for the downtown area.
Thanks for all of the responses so far!
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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I live in a small town, population around 13,000. Several years ago our downtown area became a "historic" district. If a business owner in that area wants to re-paint his storefront the colors will be chosen, if he wants a new sign the design will be chosen.....not by the business owner....but by the "historic committee"....and they think arched Poster Bodini is the only way to be historic....unless you are a lawyer or some one else with stroke....then your sign or storefront can be exactly what you want.....such is life in small town America I guess.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Isn't this the very reason "Electric Eyes" were invented? Some might call them "Photo Cells" as when it gets DARK enough(usally around dusk)the lights will automaticly turn themselfs ON! When it gets light enuogh(usally around dawn)they turn themselfs OFF! If it is left up to "TIMERS"(or people)there will always be variances. If it left up to the NATURAL ORDER of the rotation of earth(sun up and sun down) Everyone has to play by the SAME RULES!!! Regardless of population of towns,business',or historical districs.
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The update on tonight's plan commission meeting:
The first reading was tonight on the sign ordinance. The "Lights Out" time is 9:00 pm or close of business day, whichever is later. I did not and do not agree with it. The final draft was railroaded to the plan commission and I am sort of relieved that it now goes to the city for changes as now the public awareness campaign can begin.
After all of this work I feel like we are a group of jerks trying to tell a doctor the RIGHT way to perform heart surgery. Frustrated? You bet. But not giving up or in without a litle more fight!
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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Jeff ...are you living in an overeducated... liberal arts...wine and cheese snob type town or am I only guessing.
Judging from the part of the country your in most of the towns in your area have been in existance for at least 150 years or better...has anyone asked how in the hell you made it that long without the need for a sign curfew?
Good Luck buddy ...yer gonna need it! And watch your back...when this whole thing blows up at a town meeting (trust me) yer the guy the commission will "throw under the bus" Why? you ask? Well... because your the sign expert (so it must have been your idea).
good luck again!
[ October 08, 2002, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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