posted
Hey all I have read and pondered over the issue of some person buying thier own sign equipment, for whatever reason. Ask yourselves "When I started in the sign bussiness did I apprentice to an established sign craftsman or go to a special sign school to learn the proper ways to do design and layout?" Or perhaps like Myself you saw someone doing Pinstriping or Sign work and thought "Gosh I think I can do that too!" In my case it took four years of practice, very poor quality work at very cheap prices. Until my break came along and all my hard work clicked in and now twenty odd years down the road my skill is at least respected enough that the BEST BRUSH COMPANY "MACK" honored me by naming a brush after me. During the time I was practicing my now chosen trade, I was working for a automotive graphics company applying "VINYL" Pinstripes. This board was not around back then nor for that matter was the internet really, the local Pinstripers for the most part would not give me answers to my questions, or offer advice for improvement. The point that I guess I am tring to make is --------We each of us started somewhere in this business, some of are proud of how we started, and some of us (like myself, stepped on a lot of toes and irritated a lot of our now BROTHERS AND SISTERS of the craft)--------
I read the post about the truck company that felt thier sign costs were too high and bought thier own equipment for lettering their own trucks. During the next two days I read the posts and then I got a phone call, You see a local Car Dealership felt that the cost of pinstriping by the local Pinstriper (ME) was too high so they had purchased a batch of stencil tape to paint stripe thier own cars. Well this phone call was from one of their customers he wanted the $50.00 stripe off his truck immediatly, I scheduled an appointment to look at the job--( it was mediocre at best )--wiped it off in ten minutes, restriped the truck in 30 minutes, gave him a bill for $150.00 and got a check for $175.00! I love doing work for those that appreciate quality work at what I deem to be FAIR prices, customers who don't like my prices or don't appreciate my craftsmanship I personally wish they would do thier own work, because then my customers will see the difference I offer and gladly pay my prices for the quality given! If your quality doesn't far out shine a newby trucking company sign novice then, --------------------maybe you should stop posting nasty comments and get out your Atkinson Sketches and practice, practice, pratice.
I LOVE ALL OF MY FELLOW LETTERHEADS, BUT COME ON REMEMBER WE ALL STARTED SMALL, (I quess I just stayed that way)
DeWayne Connot D.O.A. Flatliners Pinstriping to Die For!
-------------------- Valerie Connot DOA Flatliners North Wales, PA Posts: 138 | From: North Wales, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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DeWayne, Everyone started somewhere and I'm still very low on that totem pole. Watching you work at Mars amazed me, then talking with you amazed me more. I was pleasantly surprised by your friendly attitude. There are some wonderful people on this board (like yourself) and a few that aren't so wonderful.(These are the people whose posts I don't even bother to read anymore).
I sometimes get upset by the harsh words people say to newbys, then I meet some of the genuinely sweet people here and it makes me feel good about being a part of this again.
Thank you for your post. I didn't see the post you referred to but reading yours made me smile none the less.
By the way, you're not small and you're not short. You're vertically challenged just like me.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I thought I knew where the story was going when you got the phone call, but I was wrong. But lets say the call was from the truck dealership wanting to know which fine line tape to use, where to get it, what paint & brushes work best, & how they should hold them. I can tell from your post that you would most likely be gracious & professional in your reply as you decided how much time & information to share with the dealership. But now lets say your having a beer with a few strippers (pinheads!...you know what I mean even if I can't spell ) & your talking about that phone call. I think the comments might easily stray into some of the same territory as the truck companies post.
In my opinion the letterheads were not really any nastier then the truck company in the end. (I admit we started it, though gradually & with sarcasm, not nasty venom) I think it's fair to say this forum is where we come to "talk shop" after long days slaving to pay the bills, & I think some of us who have tended to let the sarcasm flow out a little too freely at times are also the genuinely sweet people here.
I do agree that you made some good points to remember though re: remembering where & when we started. As I posted elsewhere, I saw the movie "Lord of the flies" & it made me think on that thread with some regret.
posted
GOOD post! YES,everyone "thinks" they can no it. (Especialy now that there are machines) Like yourself they will pay me NOW...or pay me LATER when realizing the machine is as only as good as the operator. I will be happy to answer anyones questions(if I know the answer) My answer to they question you are reffering to... would be to go to a "Live" meet for the personal up close encounter.
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Having a beer with a few STRIPPERS!, now I can get behind that! Ha ha, to Hell with a bunch of stripers.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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yep i remember where i come from, was back there in aug. and meet some of the reasons why i left there....heheheheh. as for being a sign person with my own opinions(been doin this since i was a kid) i only give back what iam given. if people are nice and respectful, they get the same in return, if they are jerks(lot of them around) i at least treat them with honesty and tell them that they are!!!!! and leave them to their own demise. example similar to dewayne: got a call to repaint a large building, go look at it, talk to client, measure it ..its 16' x 40' 3 lines of copy each will be almost 4' tall on a metal building 40' in the air. ok, the guy tells me hell have the old sign blocked out, ok, so i figure it up; 16' x 40'= 640 sq.ft. x $5.00 sq.ft. =$3200, and this doesnt include the lift rental. the guy goes off on me and says "i dont want buy you a new car", told him my new car was more in the $40,000 range! so hes like real upset with me. so i leave. went back over to the same place and the small boat repair place i do signs for is on the same property and there are 2 guys up on 40' ladders painting the building. well i have to ask the guy i do work for...find out these 2(not sign painters) are doing the job for $ 5 0 0 . 0 0! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! hahahahahahahahaha....so 1st off they cant match the background color, its 3 shades different....i told the guy i do work for....when the guy gettin the building painted calls me back to finish what these guys CANT, I'LL BE GLAD TO ADD ANOTHER $500 FOR FIXIN WHAT THEY SCREWED UP!!
[ September 21, 2002, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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The Letterhead movement was started to help fellow "Letterheads" hone their skills in a closed mouth society of sign professionals who would not share their craft secrets.
Imagaine that, a sign craftsman unwilling to share knowledge with a fellow sign craftsman.
Now we have a trucking company getting in to the business of in house sign work out of greed of wanting even more profit. They request help from the "Letterheads", who are to be so gracious about shareing the secrets of the sign craft.
Trucking companies make more money than your sign shop will ever generate, and by starting their own in house sign shop, they may have just cut a fellow "Letterhead" out of work in that community. This is greed, pure and simple. Not only greedy, this company stated they were expanding, which implies that they undercut other truck companies out of work. Now that they may have underbid a contract, they have less profit margin to operate on, and now decide to save the truck lettering fees by doing it themselves with an in house sign shop.
I DRAW THE LINE HERE! Not out of rudeness, but out of respect to the sign professionals in the community where this trucking company is located as THIS TRUCKING COMPANY JUST TOOK FOOD OUT OF A FELLOW SIGN SHOP'S MOUTH, and away from his family.
"LETTERHEADS" help fellow "LETTERHEADS." PERIOD!
Letterheads should not help greedy businesses get into the sign business. I agree we should NOT be rude, but everyone knows that even "letterheads" treat fellow "letterheads very rude in posts. The difference is, we shake it off and get over it and jump right back in and post again.
I feel the issue has been clouded over with the idea we were all once beginners in the sign business too, so we should in turn be helpful to a beginner. This is not the same situation at all! These greedy people have a money making cash cow trucking business already. They are not starving!
[ September 21, 2002, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
Hey Dave, I don't want to get into a ****in' contest on cash cows, Point is in these here parts people think Pinstripers and Signpainters make $200,000.00 ayear or more CASH. Trust me I don't. The trucking company in question "may be making a ton of money-- or they may be marginal and out of business next year" They may even find that the sign and graphic busniess is more profitable and drop the trucking business entirely. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm is it OK for a sign guy to take work out of another sign guy's mouth????????????? It's FREE INTERPRISE,
But then again it's only my opinion
DeWayne
-------------------- Valerie Connot DOA Flatliners North Wales, PA Posts: 138 | From: North Wales, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Back in the day of the closed mouth craftsmen that would not share with me, I came to learn that they would share in little bits as they felt that I earned the information. I still feel that way today. I think certain attempts, failures, hanging around asking questions, doing favors for, and acting in a manner that looks like you really would value the information is a dues needed for the info to really be valued. Those without the real hunger and thirst usually get the short answers. Everyone I know will share all they know with the person that truly will use the info, but it will come out in selective segments. It's real different than buying a machine.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6810 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Sticking our nose in a sign book to better ourselves and not worry about what other businesses do, is not the issue.
The issue is:
Should "Letterheads" help a (non sign)business establish an in-house sign shop?
By giving help, are not we being hurtful to the sign businesses that are affrected in that community?
There is a big difference from a person who posts:
I just lost my job, have kids to feed and since I'm good at art, need help getting a sign business started!
As opposed to this post:
We own a trucking company and bought sign equipment because the local sign guy charges too much money, can you help us get an in house sign shop started!
BIG DIFFERENCE, BIG, BIG, BIG DIFFERENCE!
Yeah, its free enterprise...but do Letterheads have to help it along?
[ September 21, 2002, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
AMAEN BROTHER SACKS ! ! ! I learned from many wonderful people... any of whom I had to earn their respect first. Maine is the toughest state I know, for this given profession, and most shop owners are unapprouchable.... I learned however that it comes from the young wannabee overnight sensationalist who never respected the trade but only chased what they saw as an easy way to make money, ****ed off the old guys that had established themselves over time, and gave the customer lower quality and lesser value. I have taken on many a young aspiring crafts people only to see each and every one of them do the same. A special note at this time however is how I always sum up this conversation.... if they left me for some cheap hack.... I never needed them anyway. At one time I was surrounded by 30 shops in a 20 mile radius..... I never advertised and always thrieved only to see each and every one of them fall to the curb. I never have felt threatend by giving out information.... these days I do tend to make the youngins work for it... heh heh heh.... Hey WHEN DO WE GET A PINHEAD SHOW IN THE NOR'EAST?!?!?....
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
Kudo's to Wayne and Rick Sacks, the true spirit of the SIGN business does still exsist through their simple approach of doing as well as life in general. I love to see when anyone can use whatever means available to make a their lot in life. I have seen so much crap come to surface up in regards to the degradation of this great (what used to be a trade) that began when the 4-B came through the door. We had planned to only use it for making patterns and we did. It saved time and made our bulletin work go somewhat better. As far as I am concerned, the complete ruin of the sign business has only begun. You can go to almost any trade show these days that has anything to do with marketing any kind of product anywhere and there will be booths set up of all the computer controled sign equipment showing the world how to do their own signs including the truking business. It is on... and more shops will be losing business because of it. The best thing for any real sign crafter to do is learn to do some of your work the old fahioned way and then you will survive. There is always the Bhudist, approach as well... If you don't get the project, it just leaves room for a better one. ( When one door closes another opens).
Thanks to Wayne, yer O.K.
-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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I'm going to have to agree with Wilson on this.
I was at CONASAC yeasterday(trade show held in Toronto every year). All the newest gadgets, router tables - wide formate printing etc. etc.
We did our walk around and got all our info on the products. What really made it while was talking to Tramp who was pinstriping a panel for 1 Shot. We spent more time their talking with him sharing info, ideas etc. First Class individual who didn't even think twice about answering questions for anybody- Beginner or experienced.
I attended college-2 year sign graphic program,Hand lettering and layout was priority. Even though I don't hand leter very often, all the basics are still used with other tools.
What seperates the men from the boys...
Anybody can set up shop or buy na existing shop (my employer did) type in words or letters and call it a sign.It takes a creative individual to take words or letters and covey it to an image( not a sign).
We all come here to learn or to share - a true letterhead. If you here to simply make a buck and don't have the passion to learn I have no time for you. We all feel good sharing info with the people who want to learn and have the passion to learn more about this trade.
Just my 2 cents...
ROB CARNEY Gorrie, Ontario rcarney@wightman.ca
-------------------- Robert Carney Fergus, Ontario Posts: 131 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2001
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Because I am growing Old and I love Telling/Teaching anyone what I have been given as free (Info) to myself!!!!!!!! I intrust in my "Greatest Friends!"
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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i dont usually answer twice to same post, but this one happened today. and how it was delt with. we have a montly mud bog race, not a big turn out but fair amount. ive been taking the mobile sign shop to these for the last year, and know most of the guys that show up there. so i just drive in pay addmission fee and go "visit" with these guys. today i show up and iam cutin a windshield banner, the guy who runs these comes over and is all upset, this other "sign person" is set up in the spectator area and is all up set cause iam there with the 8'x 14' rollin billboard. told him i would go over and talk to her. i go over to the lady, and introduce myself, and apoligize for just movin in on her. anyway come to find out she is selling t-shirts, and precut stickers, cant do any on the spot custom work and she is new to the trade. took her over to my mobile shop, gave her the 10 cent tour, told her how i do stuff and the prices i charge, and gave her my card with www.letterhead.com on the back and told her to look in and see if we can be of any help to her. she thanked me for being helpful and said she would give me a call, and i was the 1st sign person to be so helpful! so all in all it was a good day.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dave, I don't know why you have such a bad attitude about truckers but......
Trucking companies make more money than your sign shop will ever generate
I was a independent trucker...had my own rig...I make about the same with my sign business
this company stated they were expanding, which implies that they undercut other truck companies out of work Maybe the offer better service than the other companies, more on time deliveries, less damaged freight, etc.
trucking isn't the big money business you seem to think it is, by the time you pay ridiculous insurance rates, $1.30 a gallon diesel, taxes, permits, ohh let's not forget that thousand dollar license plate on the front bumper and the $400 tires...well there isn't a lot of profit...look at the stock prices of the big trucking companies over the last five years....go to your local truck dealer and ask him how many of his used trucks are repo's
I've encountered just as much undercutting of bids and prices in this business as I did in the trucking business, that's one things thats the same
when I first started trucking a local shop would hand letter my truck....then a new shop opened in a nearby town with a plotter...vinyl only....soon we all were going to the new shop....he wasn't cheaper, usually a few bucks more...but like Glenn Taylor would say "design is evrything"
by the way the original shop is still open, the old hand painter passed away some years ago and his daughter took over his business, they don't hand letter, they have a plotter and now a edge, but now that they have local competition (me) they sell 12" x 18" edge printed magnetics for $40 a pair.....makes me want another Peterbilt
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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IF you remember......trucker lady started out wanting trouble. Her tag line said 'fed up with letterville' What kind of an attitude is that? Let her make her own signs, have them look like crap and give her business a poor image. Evidently she/he doesn't have the balls to post a pic. hmmm.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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thanks doug, most of my "new york tude" i learned from you.....heheheheheheheheh
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm not getting "down" on truckers. Again, the issues involved are when Letterheads use their wisdom to help their customers set up a sign business. I think it is wrong.
Letterheads help those that display the Letterhead spirit. As a group it is unthinkable we act as consultants to set up our customer base in the sign business!
As a side note, this just happened to be a trucking company that got tangled up in this discussion.
-------------- Mark, I don't know you, and you don't know me. Many of us that post have made a bad first impression to others by venting some anger over an issue. No doubt, my poking fun at truckers was not appreciated by you, and no doubt, some others.
Really is there anything you can post on the BB with out offending someone?
We letter a lot of trucks for local dirt and grain haulers. They are the some of best people on the planet. They make darn good money, especially those hauling gravel and dirt for street and road construction.
[ September 23, 2002, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
Dave, I don't take your post's personally and I hope you do the same with mine, but if my failing memory serves me correctly she was already doing her own trucks and was only looking for a source to buy striping tape. Now other than her being a "outsider" is that any different than one of us asking where we can get our own business cards printed? I have a friend who owns a print shop, and he's gonna be ****ed when he finds out I sub out cards to someone out of state because they are way cheaper than him...but I can't re-sell his and make any money. Do I just send my customers to him and make nothing? Or have them printed elsewhere and double my money? I hate to take business from him but I happen to like money LOL
I have a good customer who repairs 18 wheeler trailers and does a lot of Wal Marts work...rumor is that Wal Mart will soon be doing all of there own stuff....not because of price but because the 4 or 5 large shops that do the new trailers aren't consistant....even using the files sent by wal mart...not big differences maybe the letters are 1/2 bigger or wider...but makes it really hard to match them when my customer changes one panel on the side of a trailer and I have to match and replace half of the W and half of the A. I just hope I can use this fresh 50 yard roll of blue control tac before they start sending the replacements along with the wrecked trailer.
glad the truckers in your area are doing good, down here the gravel and asphalt guys are hurting really bad.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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