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The denatured alcohol began as ethyl alcohol and the denaturing process is to add alternate compounds to mess up the natural base (pure ethyl). In some cases a oil base is added, if so the surface can be altered during atempts to relieve plasticiser issues. So use ethyl allky, if you can get it at a local chemical supply. Let it dry, wipe it down with paper towels, coat it with some TI-COTE and git to painting...!
-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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Not at all. No need for TI-COTE if that's the case I just prefer paint, it looks better.
-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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Wilson A. may have a good point about the wisdom of using denatured alcohol to prep banner material. He's right that denatured alcohol is just ethyl (or grain) alcohol that has been intentionally contaminated. Different things are used to do the 'denaturing.' Sometimes it's a little methanol, which is just another alcohol, though a very poisonous one, but sometimes it's a solvent like mineral spirits, which is indeed oily. All that's necessary is to contaminate the ethyl alcohol with something so that it cannot be consumed (or taxed) like whisky. The specific solvent added would be on the MSDS sheet for that brand of denatured alcohol, would it not? If it's an oily solvent is it enough to affect vinyl adhesion? I think these are good questions. The safe thing might be to use isopropyl alcohol. It's far less toxic than methyl alcohol (methanol), and doesn't have the contaminants like denatured. If it's not available in bulk or in gallons in your area, you can always buy it in quarts at the drug store as rubbing alcohol. It costs a little more that way, but the only thing they add to it is water. We get it in a plastic bottle at WalMart, drill a hole in the cap, and insert the squirt nozzle from off a can of 3M General Adhesive Remover. A trigger spray will screw onto the same bottle.
Many use "lacquer thinner" to clean banner material. But most hardware store lacquer thinners are not straight lacquer thinners. They are blends. They will contain lacquer thinners, like tolulol and xylol, but they will contain other things, too, like alcohols or other solvents. They are blended to be as general purpose as possible as cleaners. Is oily contamination an issue here, too?
It's interesting that at my former place of employment we regularly used denatured alcohol as a prep for large format graphics on back-lit awnings and fascias. Did we encounter adhesion problems? Yes. Usually it was outlines delaminating, but sometimes more. I was sent hundreds of miles on more than one occasion to repair a Pizza Hut logo or a TA Truck Stop graphic. Many theories were advanced to explain the problem, such as: defective vinyl (the favorite), shipping the awning too soon (as in minutes after completion), even body oil. We tried to be more careful in production, keeping our hands clean and trying not to touch our noses (nose oil), but we never really pinpointed the problem. Could it have been oily alcohol all along?
Oh well, it's not my problem anymore. I work for a different company now. The pay is better and I can touch my nose with impunity.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks Wilson and Brad, Fortunately, I got busy with something else and haven't applied the graphics to the banner yet. I have it on the easel and had already wiped it down with Den. alcohol. I will clean it off with som Isop. Alcohol. Thanks for pointing that out and saving me some grief. Thanks a whole heap! Wayne
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7409 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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We do recommend Isopropyl Alcohol for that reason.
I like Brad's comment that blaming the vinyl is the favorite place to start. In two years with Oracal I have never had or heard of a delamination caused by adhesive failure. In almost every instance it was substrate incompatability, improperly cleaned surface, insufficient squeegee pressure at the graphics edges, or contamination by either cleaning agent or application fluid.
Typically with most manufacturers' vinyls the vinyl will fail before the adhesive, if properly applied.
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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While this may cause some frowns and draw some criticism, we don't paint any of our banners. We use, 99% of the time, McCullough 13oz Ambassador banners with standard D rings. We throughly wipe with Denatured Alcohol and apply vinyl. We have banners out there that are 6 or 7 years old that come into the shop every year for a change of dates. No failures to date. Werks for us.
Surely he must have something to say on this subject.
I recommend choosing your banner supplier wisely and doing a quick Quality Assurance inspection before you even prep for paint, vinyl or printing.
I've recently had reason to perform some fairly extensive analysis of the various banner products available in the Canadian marketplace...
LOTS of lower quality (and lower price) "offshore" products have been making their way to market in recent history -- and via distributor/converter channels that might surprize you. In some cases, your distributor/converter might even be doing so unwittingly.
If your banner material smells heavily plasticized, wiping it with Isopropyl might give you good initial adhesion...but only because it will remove surface contamination. The placticeizer inside the banner fabric will still want to migrate out -- and can cause you major problems down the line.
Due to film/adhesive chemistry chemistry, cast vinyl is less susceptible to plasticizer migration and its superior conformability makes it a better choice for maximumizing the intimate contact you need between adhesive and substrate. Minimal shrinkage and maximum flexibility don't hurt the case for choosing cast films for all of your bannerwork, either.
"Flame Certs" (for fire retardency) are another area of concern. To my knowledge and experience NONE of the offshore products can pass the requirements for certification. Big liabilities in using flammable products that pre-treating with isopropyl alcohol just won't fix.
A bit off topic, I know - but I thought some might find this interesting. There is alot more to banner material than meets the eye, so buyer beware.
[ September 23, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I especially appreciated Si Allen's comment about using vodka. However, it's rather odorless quality leaves me cold. Scotch, on the other hand, has a proven record in aroma therapy research (conducted by me). It's the charcoal aging that gives it its characteristic, delicious smell.
Does it do anything for plasticizer migration? Well...I just don't know. I hadn't thought about it.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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But be careful on coloured dyed Banners as it will disolve the inks.. Ask for a off cut to expreiment with first. Then you can disolve or dilute it to the ratio!
Chamios work well to help the application.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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You can paint the banner with 100% acrylic latex paints, gloss especially, which will dry quickly.
Sponge pat colors of latex to create faux marble finish, or just some weird design. It only takes a few minutes to create a spectacular background.
Letter with vinyl graphics or paint 1 Shot lettering enamel on the top of the latex, which will also dry quickly as the paint will not interact with the molecules of the banner.
This is just one little trick we discovered when working with COOP's "Banner Across America."
We saw the banner again at the RT 66 meet in July and the latex paint was holding up fine after all the shops it has been to and all the rolling and unrolling.
Just FYI
[ September 23, 2002, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
This 14 oz banner came from Trim USA and is one nice looking banner. Their stitching is perfectly straight and it lays nice and flat on the easel with no puckers. I highly recommend them.
Too late to try any vodka, scotch or moonshine whiskey on it Si. I already cleaned it with denatured and then iso. alcohol and it's ready for the customer to pick up.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7409 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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