posted
I'm doing some tests this morning for a pending job, the main copy will be a blue to aqua fade. So I put in gerber 220 hp aqua vinyl and printed a olympic blue fade on one and an intense blue fade on another.
Both blues produced "blotchy" area in the first 30% of the fade( from the bottom ). I have recieved this in tomato red before on yellow, but never before with blue that I can recall.
Is this a foil issue or software? I am using 1.56 revision
[ September 17, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Shameless plug: Don't forget that Oracal media is one of the best medias for thermal transfer printing on the Edge, ColorCamm, Durachrome, and Matan due to the brilliant whites, best surface consistancy, and being the cleanest from the factory rolls you can buy.
Email me for samples.
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Bob, I've experienced some blotchness before with process fades adn worked around them by adjusting the halftone settings. Maybe this will help. I found that my LPI settings were to high.
I admire your enthusiasm for your products, and I hope you can accept that this is not a personal attack...but REALLY!
Can you substantiate those (sorry) LUDICROUS claims for us, right here -- in Letterville -- in writing?
For example, can you provide imperical evidence obtained from indepenant testing? If not, I think you ought to stop (sorry again) EXAGGERATING the quality and value of your products.
BTW... I'M STILL NOT CONVINCED by your response to the question I recently posed about 751, either.
Can you please expand on the specifics of how ORACAL's chemistry is different from other polymeric films on the market? Stick with scientific fact, please.
[ September 17, 2002, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Hi Bob. I'd guess that you're running into a Halftone issue. Try the Gerbertone Fine setting, and if you can, set your fade between 20% and 80%. This should result in a smoother transition, and eliminate the blotchiness. I don't think your selection of substrate media (vinyl) will help any in correcting this problem.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2689 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
I just encountered the same issue last week with tomato red fade overprinted on spot yellow. I faded Green down from the other end, but no problems with same settings, same media. I rebuilt the entire file from scratch in Omega (eliminating possible export issues) & still got about 30% of my fade that was about 95% solid with a jagged pixelated sudden opacity drop to 50% where it then finished the fade perfectly.
I have worked around that problem you had by substituting process magenta for tomato red. On yellow it turns red just like tomato red and blends beautifully!
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Good advice Ken, I was just going to suggest trying a fade from 85%....sometimes (often) you will get a blotchy effect close to the 100% area if you fade from 100% down to 0.
Good call Ken.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I prefer starting at 100% opacity located about 10-15% into the object & fading to 0% at a location another 10% short of the end. This has always worked except the one issue stated above, & to my eye looks better to have some solid color & sone solid underlay (vinyl or previous color overprinted) instead of visible pixels from end to end.
But I may try that idea on my problem file for a test.
I've made no disparaging comments regarding 3M materials because I know that they are a great product. I'd be happy to carry on our discussion directly so as not to use this public forum for what appears to be a lenghty conversation between us.
Once you feel that you have all of the information and have thoroughly tested our products for yourself, I'd love for you to post your evaluation here.
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Bob, thanks for that work-around. For that job I just saved the whole file as a tiff and printed it process, but if I had known this I would have preferred going with spot. I wonder what is up with that. I used yellow spot foil because my design had white parts too, but you had the same trouble with tomato red on yellow vinyl? & now 2 shades of blue? it is a mysterious thing because, at least in my case the blotchyness was so extremely bad it seems odd that just the color underneath could have that effect. In fact it would seem to relate to heat because that is where Omega "knows" & responds to the color underneath. Now I want to test assigning a different color underneath, but use yellow instead, or assign magenta overprint, but use tomato red instead.
But first I ran tests of my problem (re-created again for this test since I deleted last weeks) with fade 100% to 0%, then 85% to 15%, then rotated the fade 30 degrees on the shape.
Here are the results of my test & another with Magenta per Bob's suggestion. I zoomed in on the blotch too.
Ken, I ran tests on Oracal for your benefit. not knowing what the blotch looked like I'll forgive your "shameless" plug, but seeing the blotch in question (at least in my case) you will see how unlikely (& less shameless ) your comment seemed.
You are completely amicable (I quite like the tone of your posts...and can tell that you are a good guy -- and very commited to your company; as am I) and I don't think I suggested that you made any disparaging remarks about 3M.
To clarify, I merely challenged you to back-up the following statements -- and if you can't -- would like to suggest that you stop making statements of this sort:
quote:Oracal media is one of the best medias for thermal transfer printing on the Edge...due to the brilliant whites, best surface consistancy, and being the cleanest from the factory rolls
I also just don't buy the explanation you gave re 751, either. If you want to e-mail me something privately to convince me, I would welcome it.
I give you my word that that I won't drag you through the mud with open discussion if you "play by the rules". However, if you make unsubstantiated claims (or worse, claims that cannot be substantiated) I can promise you that they won't go unchallenged...because I don't think it is fair play.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I write for Sign Builder Illustrated, and I make signs and Edge prints every day, and I use ORACAL every day, with ZERO-NINE foils and I LIKE it...I LOVE it, I want some more of it!
651 is my favorite, and they better never change that formula!
If you want a testimonial, you got it! EVERY DAY TESTING IN MY SHOP FOR, ummmm, SINCE SPAR-CAL BIT THE DUST!
What you don't know about me....Oracal offered me a job....I turned them down. Mostly because I think I'm worth more than they were willing to pay, and because I'm not a "yes man" to the upper management...I get quite vocal and head strong about what a sign shop needs....because I know what its like in the trenches every day. NO suit and tie is going to tell me how and when to jump through hoops to sell vinyl!
Still, although I may have differences with the management at Oracal USA, the product is quite trustworthy.
[ September 17, 2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
I'm still working with GA6 but I think I saw something on the Gerber web site about a problem with fades when you apply them and later re-scale the image. The work around is to scale first then apply the fade.
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1723 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Just a note of caution here. I don't want to see Merchants debating their products here in the Letterhead/Pinhead Forum. Any hint of "dragging anyone thru the mud" is unwelcome on this website. If a question is asked by a user, feel free to answer it. Educate us on your product's strengths and proper use, but please refrain from using this forum for Merchant debates.
When it's all said and done, the signmaker using your product everyday under real World conditions, is the very best source of information. I want to hear what users, with no vested interest, have to say.
[ September 17, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
We had that problem with 09 super opaque black, but, I set the the controls to "light" in the 123 window/ settings, cleaned my print head, and the problem went away.
It may just be a fluke, bad spot in the foil, a wrong tempature setting or something.
Tell the Edge you are printing on 220 film, and see if there is a difference, or tell the Edge you are printing on gerbercal and see if it makes a difference, and try label stock and see what happens.
My gut feeling is the temperature is not matched for the foil/ and or vinyl. Then again, don't get your bubble bursted with me, cause Im an artist not a techie!
posted
Since Steve said it first, I will add what I have thought at times. Merchants pay their dues & I enjoy getting to know them in OT posts as well as any other discussion they participate in.
I respect their paid priviledge to hawk their wares, but in the past (before I noticed Jon or Ken here) I remember some shameless plugs cropping up in such seemingly unrelated places, that someone should have been ashamed of themselves. I'd be perfectly happy to see new topics put up specifically about selling us on the features of specific products. (Is that allowed?)
At least on TV, they find a stopping point for the commercials, instead of having a sponsor sitting there fitting plugs into the dialog.
posted
Jon, For the record I don't Print on Orical alot with my EDGE, but I did when I had my PC 60, but with Hyatts starting to carry it I probably will start. I don't know the Orical Rep., but for what I read, all he said was ONE of the Best Vinyls for printing, among his remarks was the fact that Orical is a brighter white, (FACT). He never said anything about 3M (FACT). In my opinion 3m is the BEST, Orical until I see otherwise is ONE of the best (FACT). Just because you are not selling a product doesn't make it Junk (FACT). You are always tring to stir, the pot, not always for the best (Fact).
Jon - Don't take this as an Attack, you just need to get it through your head that just because 3m products are great, doesn't mean that other companies don't make great products also. Remember Gerber & 3M aren't without their problems, I have had good & bad results with all types of OEM & 3rd Party products.
As I always say "Lots of stuff works, use what you want"
Later Gary
-------------------- Gary Wiant Vinyl Graphics Unlimited Shippenville, PA Posts: 66 | From: Shippenville, PA U.S.A. | Registered: Mar 2000
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I hope by now that you know that you have nothing but my upmost respect and gratitude (unless you don't visit me at ConSAC)
Dave:
I don't think We have ever actually conversed directly before, but I always read your posts with great interest. You to, sir, have my respect.
Please re-read my post.
I gave my word NOT to drag anyone through the mud and I haven't said a disparaging word here about Kenneth's products. I will also point out that I accepted Kenneth's suggestion that we take the discussion "offline".
I don't think I was unfair, mean-spirited or out-of-line in asking challenging questions. When you sell the real premium products -- the most apparently expensive products -- in the marketplace...well let's just say that you get used to answering alot of tough challenges. I don't see why low-cost competitors shouldn't face equally challenging questions.
I see signmakers discuss the topic in this forum all of the time, in a slightly different context...Letterheads vs "Quickie Stickies", for example...but "they" don't (for the most part) really have any opportunity to respond. In fairness, I gave Kenneth that opportunity.
I don't claim (nor want) to pretend to be the self-appointed Ralph Nader of the sign industry, and I accept that I can be a bit overbearing...for which I will apologize.
Dave, your testimonial is (I am quite sure) appreciated by Kenneth (and undoubtedly by my old friend Owen) but it still doesn't answer the questions posed.
I will drop the subject (would have already, actually) and Kenneth and I will (hopefully) continue our conversation "offline"...Who knows, maybe he will convince me, I will buy tonnes of his product and sing it's praises right here in Letterville.
Kenneth: I'm not the hard-a$$ bully that you might think, really. Look at that picture of me. Now picture me in a red suit with white fir trim...handing out little presents to sweet little orphan children on Christmas day...Hear my jolly laugh...Ho,Ho,Ho! Alright - so I'm not Santa Claus but everybody can have a dream!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I was writing mine when you were writing yours...I do hope you recovering nicely.
You may not like me or what I have to say, but I must say that you have me all wrong.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I appreciate the questions that Jon asked. I think similar questions opened the door for Ken to explain many good things about the evolution of the process by which calandered films are made. I can however see that he does miss Owen & untill it's time to don the red suit again, having him looking to protect "fairness in advertising" is a benefit to us consumers. Gary address the point that "one of the best" media for thermal printing (or whatever he said) is not a scientific remark requiring fact finding, nor is "brilliant whites", BUT...
quote: best surface consistancy, and being the cleanest from the factory rolls you can buy
words like best & cleanest start to be claims that should be substantiated.
Right now though, I want to learn how to continue to get predictable fade results from my $24,000.00 investment, & the question of weather to use this $40 stuff or that $80(?) stuff is another question alltogether.
posted
Sure is alot of this "3M is the best" thinking around here. 3M does indeed put out great product. I'm gonna assume that the majority haven't used the full line of Avery Products. I know for a fact that most suppliers don't carry some of their best vinyl such as XL1000 or FT1000. It isn't too hard to buy direct from Avery. Gerber/3M does do a great job by making it easy to get 10 yard rolls of alot of different colors. With the formentioned Avery vinyls, your pretty much stuck getting 24"x50 yards rolls.
Don't get me wrong, we go through a boat load of Oracal and really love it for the edge. Duracoat foils and Oracal vinyl really work well together. I'm kinda curious what the new Oracal cast is like? I'm just wondering what ever happened to those Chislers Kenneth?
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hey Jon, I won't be at the Consac Show , but Laurie will be. Stop by and say hi at The Comsign Distribution booth. She usually has some candy for good boys...so you and da mayor behave. Cheers,
posted
Jon - Thank You! I don't have a problem with you. I have never said I don't like you, It's just your 1 sided attitude, It's either we use your product, or the Wrong product.
"Lots of products work use what you want"
Bruce - As for Avery (Another Great Product), I use some of the Avery HP Colors that I can't find in 3M/Gerber Colors. Some of the specialty vinyls Carbon Fiber, Wood Grain, Shade Shifter Vinyls print very well on the Edge! (If you ever have a problem getting any foil to stick to any vinyl, print a solid flood coat of the old style ZN Clear, not the frog juice, then overprint your foils onto it) I had to do that this past week with Gerber PVC-10 & Gerber Spot Black.
As for the 3M is best attitude, I used to think that when you bought 3M/Gerber Vinyl you paid for the name, now that I use it ALOT, I feel the only people that don't use 3M/Gerber are the people that haven't tried it. I could by a 15"x50yd Kapco KCAST HP for $140, but I spend $210 for Gerber 250C, for 90% of our White HP useage. but that doesn't make the other Vinyls junk, It's my decission.
"Lots of products work, use what you want"
Now back to the original question, Sorry I was going to answer that the first post. I have had that happen before, I usually change the half tone like stated earlier, cut it back a bit, or lower the % of the solid, maybe to 75% - 80%. That should work
Later Gary
-------------------- Gary Wiant Vinyl Graphics Unlimited Shippenville, PA Posts: 66 | From: Shippenville, PA U.S.A. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
come on gerber, chime in. i have been a gerber fan for many years now, even though i am behind as far as gerber digital technology, ya never know, i might be one of those signfolks that decide to buy an edge.
posted
Thanks gary, but my test shows the left side of the 3 flawed fades is a 100% to 0% (starting & stopping short of the ends of the oval) but the center of the 3 flawed oval fades is an 85% to 15% gradient.
I've printed dozens of different jobs with fades & this is a first, but with Bob's experiencing the same color combination failing, I'm guessing it's a heat setting.
Thanks for your note. I will indeed be stopping by your exhibit...and as long as Laurie is game, I may have some FREE publicity for you! I can't say more than that at this time, but she will know what I mean the minute that I arrive.
ConSAC is going to be a B L A S T this year! **********************************
Doug:
Thanks for taking the time to read my previous comments thoroughly and for your help in clarifying them...If and when I bring the ND GRAPHICS RoadShow to Whistler (it could happen) I'll be sure to send you and your wife an invitation!
[ September 18, 2002, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Probably irrelevant to your current situation, but thought it worth the mention to not only yourself, but also anyone reading this thread. Do you have the latest Material Update installed? New one available for 1.54/1.56 and separate one for GA 6.21 SP3. This updater includes the new foil offerings along with some other minor changes.
[ September 18, 2002, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Bob Gilliland ]
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
OK, I’m chiming in, the lonely Gerber Rep. Now remember I’m a software engineer not a materials expert. What I believe Bob is experiencing is “over transfer” of the foil to the vinyl material. When Gerber qualifies the foil/material combos we do many test, one of them being a density fill ( in 10 % increments) to correct for any possible over transfer. The material group does it’s best to qualify the combo, attempting to get the best firings they can with out disqualifying the combo all together.
I have liken the Edge to a handful of crayons (I won’t push any brand here, note Jon and Ken), you hold them over a heating source, when soft enough you apply to the material, applying just the right amount of pressure and drag over the material surface. What sticks creates a beautiful thing, what over sticks causes Bob to make the post, what causes Doug to say, “been there and done this”.
Many things can effect the transfer, foil properties, material properties, device properties, halftone, LPI, density, etc.
There I said my bit.
Tony
-------------------- Tony Teveris Gerber Software Engr South Windsor, CT Posts: 92 | From: South Windsor, CT | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I've used Oracal many times on the Edge with beautiful results...and I must admit...it does seem to be delivered in an almost surgery room clean state.
3M works well too, however I don't like the tough liner release. Weeding 3M is a pain in the butt because it has such an aggressive liner release...my opinion.
(And for the record...again....no, I have NOT experienced any adverse knife blade wear as a result of using Oracal...)
I am a little skeptical of the 751 being promoted as as good as cast film. I find it hard to believe it would have the same resistance to fading and deterioration over the long haul as cast...because as I understand it...it is an enhanced version of calandared. I'd like to bend it around a metal tube and stick it outside for a couple years of outdoor weathering...to see if it cracks or fades faster than cast.
What's your take on this Kenneth? Thanks.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yesterday we opned a box of the pvc plastic from Gerber we had ordered a while back to restock. In it was a materials cd that I did not know we had, Hyatts must have shipped it when we ordered. Althoug hit was for 1.54 and we already have the 1.56 version in.
So I figured the 1.56 must've already had the updates to 1.54, but I will check that link none the less
Tony, your presence is extremely welcomed in this forum, I hope you can drop in more often
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I asked Ted Nesbitt - our National Training Manager for his comments...
quote:When someone says to me that they are not getting great print quality with their EDGE, the first thing I always ask is "do you have the right materials settings selected?". Simple question---not meant to insult anyone's intelligence. Different EDGE media have different print temperatures and pressure settings-----remember, your EDGE uses Heat AND Pressure to make those beautiful prints. Material settings should ALWAYS be done/adjusted in your OMEGA/Composer worksurface.
I recently had a 'smearing' problem with a very good customer of ours printing on LEXEDGE. They were setting the file up in OMEGA as printing on 220, then doing a Material Substitution in Quickplot to change to the LexEdge. We changed the material settings on the OMEGA worksurface and, voila!, smearing problem gone!
So, if you're printing on a 220 colour, make sure you tell the machine that and DO NOT just leave it at White 220.
If anyone out there has an EDGE 2, material settings are even mor important! Different materials and different foils also print at different speeds. While most 220 vinyls print at 60 IPM on the EDGE2, 220 clear still prints at 20 IPM. Ditto with Cobalt Blue foil, regardless of what you're printing on---always 20 IPM!
There may even be a possibility that your machine may be aggravating the problem. Have you had your EDGE serviced recently? How old is the print-head? How old are your clutches? Do you use 99% Isopropyl Alcohol to clean the head, or just the run-of-the-mill 70%?
One other suggestion I can make is that if your material settings are all correct, try increasing the print temperature in quickplot.
Ken, Doug and Todd have all made great posts on this topic!
As a rule of thumb, a fade will appear smoother if not starting right at 100%, and not going all the way to 0. Adjusting halftone can make a big difference...however going with the default GerberTone is usually a good recommendation for fades---increasing DPI obviously leads to 'banding', while decreasing DPI leads to a coarser dot.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Jon - So is Tech is saying that Omega uses different heat/pressure settings for the same material if it's called of in GSP PLOT oppoed to Composer? or is it not truly substituting the heat / pressure settings, just what the Edge LED reads out? Later Gary
-------------------- Gary Wiant Vinyl Graphics Unlimited Shippenville, PA Posts: 66 | From: Shippenville, PA U.S.A. | Registered: Mar 2000
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I'm just a dumb-a$$ed marketer...I don't even understand what TECH are saying most of the time. I just nod and smile...
Both Ted & I are up-to-here in pre-ConSAC show chaos...so I don't know how quickly I can ask and then respond.
[ September 18, 2002, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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