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Talked to a lady today who overheard me ranting in the shop about the edge dongle fee. Works for the MA Attorney Generals office.
Said charging for the first dongle is perfectly legal. Charging for the replacement of failed dongles whose only purpose is to protect the software of the manufacturer may be illegal if it is to be used with the original software.
She said this is especially true if the replacement dongle does not add functionality to or improve performance of the software package involved.
She volunteered to have one of the clerks search the case law and get back to me. She also said that this may take some time in that it would be a favor by the clerk, in that I am not involved in an active suit.
She said that she was familiar with the issue as it was a topic of discussion in one of her Yale law classes unethical/restrictive business practices.
I gather it was a major issue with milling machine manufacturers whose idea was "buy our machine, use our software". The problem was that when a "software safety plug" failed, the downtime was considerable if you didn't have a spare on hand.
Will get back to the group when I hear back from her.
Bill "Irish" Holoahn
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Type in Dongle Replacements in your browser. There is a guy in Canada (you'll come across it - can't remember his company name off hand) who does a nice perfectly legal job with software solutions to getting rid of those pesky dongles for all software requiring them....Omega included. I believe he charges around $350. Works like a charm.
Good luck.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I think that you will find that replacement dongles (softkeys) are legal under the Digital Millenium Act D.M.A.) only if the software is no longer manufactured, supported, or if replacement hardware dongles are no longer available.
I would believe that you will find that a softkey for Omega would be illegal under this act. This software is currently being manufactured, supported, and replacement dongles are available.
Don't be fooled by anyones claims. Just because the softkey makers says so, doesn't make it true. After all, he has a product to sell and will do what he has to to just that.
I did extensive research on this because I wanted to get a replacement dongle for CAS-mate in case of dongle failure. These dongles are not available from Scanvec at any cost. You just can't get them. Period. I talked to a lawyer friend that specializes in business law and he explained the D.M.A. to me.
Fortunately, the dongle failure hasn't come to pass but I have the demo softkey (good for 30 days) just in case. If it works as advertised, then I will consider purchasing or just breaking down and using Flexi-Sign (we have 2 registered copies). I can get a replacement dongle for that but not CAS-mate even though they work off the same key. Hmmmmmmmmm... Bummer.
To address William's concern, I think that a 30 day temporary softkey from Gerber would be appropriate. It would allow Gerber ample time to replace his defective dongle free of charge. To have a client lay out thousands of dollars and then to be told to pound salt for a free replacement is out of line and, in my eyes, unethical.
Have a great one!
[ September 09, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Bruce, I have no problem with Gerber wanting to protect it's software...that is their right and obligation.
I do have a problem with the end user paying for that protection a second time when the original device that they supplied and the end user payed for fails.
We, as end users should not be the protectors of the manufacturers software beyond the original purchase.
An engineer here in the Marlboro Hewlett Packard facility says that even the most sophisticated safety key costs less than $11.00 to manufacture in amounts over 500 units.
He also said the most effective safety key is an encrypted software key that has a built in time out. Usually one year. He says these keys have been around for at least the last five years and have been in use by the U.S. Government and take only 128 lines of code within the host software. (Omega or whatever)
The encryption code in the software and the encryption key in the replaceable/renewable safety key make it virtually impossible to crack. It is also non transferable to a second copy of the same software.
He says that the industry as a whole has resisted the implementation of this simple and less problematic solution strictly for reasons of monetary gain.
I want Gerber to make a decent profit through the sales of their products. I do not want them to keep outdated technology for the simple reason that it allows them to reach deeper into the pockets of their loyal customers.
A fifty cent cd, and 48 cents in postage once a year seems a simple and customer friendly way for Gerber to protect it's software.
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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I think it is ridiculous to require a registered owner of software to pay for a replacement dongle. If a dongle fails, some sort of arrangement should be in place to allow the user as little down time as possible. Replacement dongles for current software should be free of charge. Period.
I like the idea of the softkey that you were referring to. It is an idea who's time has come in this craft, that is for sure. I will have to research that a bit more. Thanks for letting us all know about it.
A class action suit against no class.... Hmmmmmm... Wanna hear someone cry like a "baby"? LOL!
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Bruce, Sorry if I came across like I may have been arguing your points. Read the dongle post you highlighted. Made sense to me. I'm just a little peeved at Gerbers attitude of "take it or leave it" in the sales dept.
The techs have always been top notch in their efforts to solve problems. Absolutely no problem there.
It's just that this security key thing really bugs me.
Again I appologize if I came accross hard nosed in my reply.
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Why is it always Gerber getting beaten up for this? If this case is so black and white, then why won't Ford replace the FOUR trnasmissions my family had go in their Taurus'. No, they had to pay over 2 grand each plus labour- but wait- you need the tranny to run, so FORD- replace it for free!! HMPPH. I understand your frustration, but it's life.
As for the key costing $11 to replace, do any of you honestly think every product out there has no markup if it's actual cost is so negligible? If that is the case, let's sue all of the video game manufacturers. My colleague just paid $70 CDN for a game- but wait!! The actual cost of the CD is about $2 with the fancy screen-printed face!! Heresy!! How dare they!! But wait!! The PC I'm using COULDN'T have cost $1600 to build, and I paid $1700!! So I'm suing them, too!!
Yes, it's your replacement dongle, but...Gerber has a bottom line, too. I know it sounds like a sucky policy, so I propose this. Take some proactive action, i.e. CHANNEL your anger-
Maybe what you should do is form a buying group. All letterheads put a letter together and say, just like any other buying group, "Gerber, we want to negotiate" instead of getting on the internet and ranting.
My $.02 (CDN)
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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Steve, your analogy is misplaced. We are not talking about profit making product here, but a security device to protect their product. I purchased the software, they want the dongle in there for their security not mine. So charge accordingly to keep that in my hands, but come on, don't justify them making money on it (others don't).
Your transmission analogy doesn't make sense in this context.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2787 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Just my unexpert opinion... I was involved with software security for a long time. But i don't know anything about programming.
I can tell you that dongle security is now as obsolete as the 5.25 floppy. It used to be a great way to "protect" the program. Now its not. Just three years ago there was maybe seven people on the planet that could remove dongles. (Ever hear of the Sevan Seven?) And a great way to make a owner pay huge sums to get his program working again. (This by the way is exactly why the DMA was ammended to make an exception)
Now, dongle protection shells are are removed from nearly any program within hours. There are simple adapters that trace dongle calls instantly. Its become so easy that many dongle removers are free.
It is said many expensive programs have been "adjusted" by an owner motivated by anger over some perceived mistreatment. Can you imagine paying 14 grand for an embroidry system and having to pay another 14 grand because the dongle was burned up in a fire? It has happened..
Future security.. The day is soon when you will use your software exactly like you pay for your electricity. Software use will be measured and paid as a utility. One famous OS is using the first step to develope servers and systems in implementing this right now.
Sooner than you think you will be required to have internet access so you can recharge your program every month. In many cases you will need full time access to run the program because all you will have is a shell that runs on your machine with access to a central server. Just like AOL does it now. (Hmm... another avenue to spam you)......
In fact, I just passed on an upgrade to one of my client service programs that requires full time access.
Do you want some central server storing all your customer lists? And then do you want them to spam you and your customers with marketing offers?? It's on its way. Why? because it will be so much easier to upgrade and make lot$ of money. Can you imagine being charged $99 bux a month forever instead of $2,000 one time? No cd's to send out. No manuals to print. No shipping. No handling. Just some little geek sitting in a control room pressing the enter key when he feels like it..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I have been using roland signmate to run my roland plotter for the last 6-7 years. I design mostly in corel, but I like the plot\panel option in signmate to do the actual cutting. The last time this dongle topic came up got me checking out what would I do if the dongle failed. I really dont want to fork out $$$ for an upgrade, as my old version suits my purposes fine and I would rather spend the money upgrading corel. But roland says it has become irreplaceable now if the dongle decided to quit. I had searched for dongle remover programs but havent found any free ones as stated above in posts. I would love to find one in the case it stopped working on me. At least I have the option of getting corel to run my camm1 if it came to it, but I still would prefer the plot options signmate gives me. Most of the sites I found regarding making a softkey would require a degree in programming and hex editing, and some of that stuff is just over my head. I would love a link to a site that would help me emulate the Rainbow dongle my signmate uses. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
-------------------- Tim Rieck Signs Halfmoon Bay, BC Posts: 736 | From: Halfmoon Bay, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000
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Tim, when you need it bad enough you won't mind paying for it. If you haven't found a free source by that time, check here http://www.safe-key.com
there are other links for pay sites. There is one that will negitiate the fees with you. Just type in dongle in a browser and you will find many of them.
If your program is no longer supported. It may qualify for the dongle exclusion in the DMA copyright act.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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