But if I can pat myself on the back and consider that I created something pleasing to the eye as weel as pleasing to the bank acount....So much the better!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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Once again,there seems to be some confusion about "either..or" Much like,Vinyl or Paint Hand Carving or Sandblasting Waterbase or Oil based It is my belife that we sould be a combination of all,in order achive the ultimate goal of making money! Thats my story and I am sticking to it.
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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For me right now it is the "Artsy Craftsy", since I can do it, I make decent money, but I am having a good time doing it. It's not just because of the art, but I need to something for me right now, and having fun at work is more important, the money will come later. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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I have made money doing all of the above and then some...... Is there something wrong with either method ??? As long as it is legal,ethical and moral.........what is the problem ??? ...if there is one !!!!! I have seen some "Signs" that are a "Work of Art " and I have seen some "Art" that is a bad "Sign"......he he he. The botton line is...... as Dave and PKing says....makin money. That is my two pence.spend it where you like. Shep'
-------------------- Arvil Shep' Shepherd Art by Shep' -------- " Those who dance are thought to be mad by those who cannot hear the music " Posts: 1281 | From: Mt Airy NC | Registered: Mar 2001
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I have always held that the artwork needs to have integrity of design. The art has always held far more interest for me than the money I make with it.
This said, I also firmly believe that someone who is good at what they do and in demand should be able to make a VERY good living at it.
I like to charge enough that MONEY has absolutely no effect on the final project. I tend to bid high enough that I can do the project even better than I first envisioned it. I like to go wild on my projects!
If I bid a project adequately to start with I can forget about the money and concentrate on the artwork only as I build it.
I don't believe in poor starving artists.
And I don't believe in compromising artwork or a project simply for the sake of making more money.
So I guess you could say I like my cake and eat it too!
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8765 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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YO Geezer. I think anything goes these days. I have seen many shops do very plain boring work and make alot of money. And I have known plenty of artsy fartsy signpainters who don't make squat but they are very happy and proud of what they do. In between is a good place to be on this topic. I think it is important to do creative designs and make money. If you just do crappy signs....unless you are making lots of money....what is the point?
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I'm in business to make money, but: sometimes I get "carried away". Usually though, it's up to the client. If a client wants something first class and is willing to pay, I'll bust my gut to make the finest looking sign within my capabilites and within the budget. As far as "working for a paycheck": throw something together....don't give a hoot....get it out the door...just for the money, that's not my nature. I always try to give the client their money's worth.
The thing I like most about this business is the craftsmanship, making different things. I just did my first gold leaf job and it was fun. I enjoy handpainting pictorials, carving and designing but I don't care to do them for free. I would much rather go hunting and fishing with my boys. But EVERY job, no matter how simple or how low the price is, should at least look like it was done by a professional, have an appropriate typestyle, be EASY TO READ, and it should last for a reasonable amount of time. So, my name and reputation goes into every sign I make.
Yes Bob, I want to produce signs that look first class, ....but at a price.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Any of you old enough to remember the James Garner/Natalie Wood movie Cash McCall? Cash's pitch was that he liked to build things and money was just the way of keeping score.
I think that sums it up - money is how you know people appreciate your work. At the same time, you have to like what you are doing.
The other side of the coin is enjoying the process of "giving back". For example, the Mars meet was both a good time and a real gift to that community.
Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I am all for making money. My wife really likes it when I make money. She likes me a lot when I bring home lots of money. Trust me, I like it a lot when she likes me a lot.
So... I vote for making money. Not that I can't artsy fartsy with the best of them, doncha know....
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6465 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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One sign I wish I had a photo of was when I was between jobs early in (or almost before) my sign career. This pizza shop owner where I'd stop in for a slice, had this plywood about 16" x 84" painted white. He wanted a sign for the next morning's windsurf competition where he was going to have a booth selling slices. I was so broke I said I'd do it for $50 cash, $50 in pizza.
I had no computer, & no shop. I knew I had some small collection of vinyl scraps from a previous job, including some flat stock with a slightly flawed color blend screenprinted on it. Anyway I stayed up the entire night with an exacto hand cutting color-blend lettering sticking it down without transfer tape to an outline color, & hand cutting it again, then putting it on the board. I cut up surf & sailboard magazine pics to get some good silloutte shapes to trace, & hand-cut through the trace onto black vinyl. I wrapped the edges with some black duct tape to give a nice border & hide the edges. When I was done I had enough time to grab coffee & get the sign delivered.
I guess it's easier to say "art first, I'm not worried about the money" if you have money. But back then I was so broke I really needed money, but loved putting all kinds of effort into making a creation I would be proud of. I stopped by when owners changes hands to ask about the sign which became a permanent part of the interior after the one-day event. I was a few days late to retrieve the sign, but would have kept it if I had got there in time.
The sad truth is now I am never that broke, or for a few days between payments I may not have money, but I always know where it's coming from. But now I am so busy that I do find myself cutting the occassional corner on a lower priced job, because of time. Like Dan & others said it's great to bid enough so I can afford to add improvements & spend extra time to throw more artistic excellence into a poject. Some clients who need to keep to a budget that doesn't allow for that will only get my second best.
posted
Honestly, I'm as artsy fartsy as the client can afford. I have a passion for my work, but you only get what you pay for. I like to keep things simple!
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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The nose arts on the B-1's are pretty basic sign skills, that are jazzed up with the airbrush.
When the rally comes in August, we do quicky-stikee banners all day, everyday.
When it comes to run-of-the-mill every day stuff, I go for readability and style points.
There is a painter somewhere in this town though, I haven't seen him/her yet, (the signs looks like a her), that is going strictly for the artsy side, and it shows, can't read nothin. lol
-------------------- "B0LT" on the chat room thing.
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Well if it were all about making money I guess I'd be in an office somewhere in a suit For me it's more about freedom and satisfaction. I've had my share of really sucky jobs, some that paid real well too, but they all sucked in one form or another. They all had bosses that were some form of a**hole. I like my boss, I like what I do, I like the hours, they pay isn't so hot at times, but some of the "benefits" can't be beat. Most days I have fun or at least enjoy what I'm doing. That to me is priceless. LatelyI 've gotten away from using the computer and vinyl . When I work just with my hands and a brush I get a feeling of accomplishment that's also priceless. That feeling of accomplishment just isn't there for me with the computer. For me, when I work all day with vinyl, it just becomes another job. I guess you could say I do this for the fun of it.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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I haven't made my 1st sign yet, or my 1st $ in the sign business, but I have done enough free woodwork and sandblasting on glass to know the satisfaction from seeing someone receiving it as a gift. Yes, it will be nice to make money in the sign business, but the satisfaction of seeing my signs hanging in someone's business will be good too.
-------------------- Robert Richards Southern Ad Specialties Carrollton, GA 770-830-1501 sasga2000@a0l.com Posts: 138 | From: Carrollton, GA | Registered: Sep 2002
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If it was all about making money, I can think of Tons of other professions that I could call "my career".
Someone once said, "making signs is not the richest thing to do, but it's a hell of a lot better than working for a living"!
Yesterday I finished a couple of windows for a local insurance agency. I painted them from the inside with 1-Shot. Simple logo, 3 colors, EASY! Fun job that made that paid well. I almost felt bad that I had to charge them for doing what I like do.
NOT REALLY! I had a HUGE smile while I was cashing their check!!
-------------------- Mark Neurohr "Ernest" Paintin' Place 141 Sunnyside Road Kittanning, PA 16201
posted
Even on No Parking signs there is importance to me in letter spacing and proportions. I find myself messing with getting the art part right even where it matters nothing to noone else.
With this charactoristic governing my attitude, I need to bid accordingly and get a clientelle that wants something better than those that just price shop.
I fall into the artsy category by choice, and periodically slip into the $$ side and catch myself. Those that do it with the $$ mindset might get bored in too short a time. I'd rather drag this out for a lifetime.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6812 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I don't see the need for a distinction here Bob, if I'm getting the post right, why can't every job be attractive? ("artsy-craftsy")
There are high end, landmark-type jobs where the final appearance and longevity are far more important than the price, and there are simple, commercial jobs where price is more sensitive.
The first type take care of themselves, there's enough money to do your best in the planning and execution. The second type naturally involve lower grade materials and shorter fabrication processes, but still take just a little creativity in layout to stand above 90% of the competition visually. And if you ask me, it is the visual appearance of any signs that will get the repeat business and the referral to new customers. I would MUCH rather be known as the guy that does nice signs rather than the guy who has the lowest prices. Once you're tagged as the 'cheap' guy it's a downward spiral of price cutting. Yukk.
If you're looking to divide us into camps, I'd have to stand in the artsy side - with one caveat; it's never good business to loose money on a job. If there's not enough budget to do the job professionally, at whatever price point, there comes a juncture when I have to decline and give somebody else a chance.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Joe, I think there are those out there who use their artistic ability as a TOOL to make a buck in the sign business.....and there are those who keep trying to convince themselves and everybody else that they are ARTISTCALLY CREATIVE to the point of the money being way way secondary. I think most of us have BOTH but lean further in one direction or the other......REALITY vs DREAMWORLD. Most of us have the bulk of our work in the "bread and butter" crap we HAVE to do to be in this business, so the creative juices are put aside to some extent. Others have "specialized" themselves into the "artsy-craftsy" realm wher they're lucky enough to command a price, and do it THEIR way. I wish I was in the latter group, but I'm in the "blue-collar" world of signmaking, so for me, I see it all as "a nice/fun way of making ends meet"!
[ September 06, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
posted
And what conclusion may we glean, who grope in blind ignorance, from these codices of dark wisdom, that they may guide us onto the path of enlightenment in our feeble quest for success and ultimate happiness?
Bob, If someone has the artistic talent and skills as a craftsman and wants to sell upscale or work-of-art signs, there is someone out there eager to buy them. If you want to sell just words on a board, there's a MUCH BIGGER market for that. Each has it's place. BOTH ARE SIGNS....RIGHT? Welcome to free enterprise.
[ September 06, 2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Most of us have the bulk of our work in the "bread and butter" crap we HAVE to do to be in this business, so the creative juices are put aside to some extent. so for me, I see it all as "a nice/fun way of making ends meet"!
it doesn't sound like to me that you are having that much fun bob.
posted
I feel people come to this BB for one of three reasons. A passion for the artistic side of the business.
A yearning for learning the craft, and resolving their problems.
And some to rattle, just because that is what they love to do. (I certainly have no problem with this either)
I bond tighter to the group that has the artistic passion, and also those who like to help others. As far as making money honestly, I think that is fine, but feel it should be deserved. I, kind of catagorize people by their attitudes. If a businessman would knowingly overcharge a customer, just because they feel they would pay it, I would just as soon have them on the end of a sharp stick, because they are nothing but a thief. That's the type of person I am. I feel that their is a lot of us like that here. Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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yeah... I think Jack nailed it. IMO most (if not all) who hang here are more the artistic type ... even if you make good money why would you hang ON THIS BOARD for any amount of time if that's all it meant to you?
For me it depends on what time of day it is ... by day (at job) I'm all about doing job to make profit for company ... no matter what kind of crap the customer wants I do it to the best of my ability. After work (side job) it's all about the artsy (no my "free time" isn't cheap) ... but if I don't like the prospect job I walk away real easy ... don't NEED the money (extra is nice but I don't HAVE to deal with the a-holes or crap ... that's my bosses job)
Boss's belong to BNI, Rotary, Chamber, etc. and drive BMW's
I belong here and drive a late model Buick
It's the passion for the art (and can of whoop ass work ethic) the make me the highest compensated employee.
They are real good at selling what I can do ... in turn ... I'm good at making what the can sell
You guy that do it all ... God bless ya
I hope to be there with ya at a different point in my life
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bob, Since you are on the subject....! I personally would like to have a neat little product that not one instant sign slammer could live without and make a blue million myself, but that ain't gonna happen. I gotta tell you though, here I am reading the state of the industry report from the Sign of the Times magazine and everything is based on what a slam franchise is doing. Now to sweeten the whole deal, a rep. from one of the well known franchise deals writes a full page disertation on how ****ed all the slammers should be because of Kinko's gettin' in to their sign game. How's that for some paper pusher havin his panties in a wad? I would not have any of them in my foxhole! The whole thing started stinkin' when the 4B hit the scene and it's been a lot of money making crap since. Just my 2 bits and now Im over it.
-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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IT IS MY FIRM BELIEF THAT EVERYTHING WITH THE WORLD (business-wise)WAS RIGHT, UNTIL THE DODGERS LEFT BROOKLYN IN '57. EVERYTHING HAS GONE DOWN HILL EVER SINCE. CHECK IT OUT!
Before my earlier post got so windy, this was something else I wanted to address, in fact, I wondered if it wasn't part of an underlying theme of your topic.
I can't tell if you're frustrated by those jobs, embracing them, or trying to find justification to feel ok about having to do so many of them. I can say with certainty that it slays me how much 'easy' money can be made from the simplest, least challenging jobs. When most of the projects in my shop take weeks of handling, that occasional quickie job that is done in a couple hours and out the door (paid for) is refreshing and surprising. Wow, $200 for an hour or two's work - by that measure, I could be making a lot more money by specializing in that, than I do on these involved 'masterpieces'. And they'd be out the door with a lot less worry, planning and paperwork. Simple.
BUT - here's the problem... there'd also be a lot less fullfillment.
And here's the other problem - the really big one... I havn't found a way to have it both ways. The 'bread & butter' jobs scare me, because I truly believe they will quickly undermine the stature I have fought hard to establish in my marketplace. To risk sounding big-headed, I view myself at the upper part of the heap in abilities and reputation around these parts. People come looking for the best sign, not the best price. That is priceless, and it's also fragile. I'm not where I am by luck, but exactly, as you said, by 'specializing', and by saying no more than yes.
I may not get to do it all 'my way' as much as it looks, I compromose all the time, but by starting at a high level, it has a lot better chance of ending up closer to where I want it. Funny enough, I start most new job negotiations with "How much do you want to spend?". That's where a lot of the "no"s come in.
Let me wrap this up - It isn't a choice between art or money. It's a choice between custom or basic, and you can be great at either and make money at either. I DO see those as two camps, because they're separate disciplines that require separate marketing strategies. I pine for more 'bread and butter' (cash-flow) work but don't know how to get it without hurting the other. It doesn't surprise me at all if you feel stuck in "blue-collar" land. I think that's pretty accurate, and may be the nature of the beast. I see a clear chasm between the two realms with few bridges.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It's artsy fartsy craftsy for me. I MARKET the "artsy fartsy!" That is what makes me different than the majority of my less than talented competitors. I make money doing the artsy fartsy because they can't and haven't got a clue how.
MARKETING is the process of attracting clients because those clients see what they like and want it and have or find the money to pay for it.
SELLING is total "bull sheeeting", whealing & dealing and price dickering to get the job, while the quality and the integrity of the job is not of much concern.
I have to stay busy, that is the bottom line, and not every NO PARKING sign can look like a million bucks.
You will find that some customers only understand the way to get things in life is by price dickering. I'm glad many customers are not at all like that.
I also agree that the majority of those that come to this site are extremely interested in the sign CRAFT more than the BUSINESS of the sign craft. I don't see many sign franchise shop owners posting here on a regular basis. I don't see many of the BIG high rise sign shop owners hob knobing with us Letterheads.
What I do see at this site is a lot of extremely good craftsmen, mostly one and two man (or women) shops and maw and paw shops who are working very hard to adjust to the phenomanal changes that have overtaken our industry.
Making money is about developing your sign business in such a way that it can be sold to someone who thinks they can make a go of it. That is only going to happen if the type of sign business you are in has uniqueness and low competition. Vinly cutting and digital printing are becoming a "no brainer" and who the heck needs to "buy" a business to do that?
But a specialized (artsy craftsy) sign business, like a sign business that specialzes in mainly neon creations, or mainly architectural concrete stucco monument sings, or like the sign business that mainly makes sandblasted STOP signs, becomes a business that can be sold. Thus this is their ticket to retirement.
quote: Vinly cutting and digital printing are becoming a "no brainer" and who the heck needs to "buy" a business to do that?
actually you can choose not to apply your brain on any number of arts, crafts, or skills. Anything you want to do without pushing your self to apply your knowledge of materials, equipment layout, & marketing can be done in an ignorant fashion. Even paint.
posted
I see a message from Wilson and want to welcome him to the BB. I also see where he works and wish he'd get that fuzzy old Duane to stick his smile into this BB also.
Joe, your "few bridges" picture was well worded. Thanks.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6812 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Actually I live in Truckee, in the summer and down Arizona, way in the winter. Just happen to be doing some contract stuff that only a Journeyman can do. I am using the net at Sun Sign cause it's here but have been watching Letterheads for a long time. Thanks for the welcome. It would be nice to see some of the old salts who are the real sign artists come back to this site for a refreshing change. As others have mentioned there is nothing wrong with the business today and it is probably a reflection of the so called tech life. Personally, I think more people should have a front porch and go fishing off the bank more often.
W. Ardmore aka Wilard
-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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Hi Wilson..And welcome. I have a front porch, but it is enclosed and acts as my computer/weeding/masking room. (My fabrication shop is another building).
BUT I do have a very nice back yard with some nice mature trees. I have lawn chars and a picnic table. I have a cooler that will hold 24 beers on ice. I have a source of infinite numbers of books to read. I have lots of sunscreen.
Is that ALMOST as good as fishing????
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I'm new around here,but would like to make a point on this subject. When I first got a business license, they put me under the category of Community Service. Now I think thats a good perspective to see things from.We're painting sings fo the people in our community. Sometimes these people, our customers, need little dinky stuff, and other times they want to pull out all the stops. During the course of their business life they're probably going to need both. So I see myself in a position to meet and get to know these people a little bit while providing them with a lifetime of service. For me the work always seems to balance out to where I get to do enough nice stuff to keep me happy. My customer base is pretty important stuff to me. I genuinely enjoy talking with them and hearing what they've been up to lately when they come in. This interaction is an important part of my being a sign person... I couldn't function well if that were taken out of the equation, and I actually get satisfaction from it.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I forgot to mention that Duane, is on the road most of the time on projects for the state and he's makin' some nice coin. He comes to his shop on weekends and holidays and does a little sign painting. Just an FYI.
Also to Mr.Grundy, I would imagine that you have fair stockpile of chicken fat, ground glass, white lead and turps out there in the fab shop Eh? Oh, fergot, some 20 mil duck as well.
Happy Landings....!
-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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For me it's more about freedom and satisfaction. I've had my share of really sucky jobs, some that paid real well too, but they all sucked in one form or another. They all had bosses that were some form of a**hole. I like my boss, I like what I do, I like the hours, they pay isn't so hot at times, but some of the "benefits" can't be beat. Most days I have fun or at least enjoy what I'm doing. That to me is priceless. 
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