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Well, the owner has finally decided we need a large format printer. Now what? I would like to hear comments from those letterheads out there that have gone thru the upgrade process --- from cutting vinyl letters and sticking them on banners, Corplast, Sintra, Alum. etc. to the ability to do multi-colored photo quality printing on vinyl and various materials. What questions do I need to ask the vendors/sellers of these pricey monsters to get the machine I need and not what brings them the biggest commision? What brands do we avoid? What inks are best outdoors? Any other comments would be appreciated.
-------------------- Jeff Hornbuckle K & D Signs and Graphics 3115 Northington Ct. Florence, AL 35630 jeffatkdsigns@hotmail.com Posts: 2 | From: Florence, AL, USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Depending on how many "twentys" you want to print on a page will help you decide whice size printer to buy, but why wouldn't you print Hundreds
No, seriously I think the answer lies with you customer base & not as much through other letterheads experience or your vendors options. By this I mean, what is the demand that has your employer making this decision? I bought the Gerber Edge & I love it as do most I know who have made that investment. After about 21 months, I am doing a job today that the 5th or 6th job paneled out of sections to exceed the 12" printing capacity. This is obviously not "large format" but for my market it is the ticket.
Jim Doggett should be along soon I would guess to tell you more about Summa's newer, larger capabilities.
posted
If you are looking for something to use outdoors, it is worth it to get a solvent based printer.
If you use something like the Color Span (which I have read has problems with printing a green hue - www.signweb.com - under the classified ads, digital forum) or the Encad (which I have) you may have problems.
Part of what I print on is for sign faces, and I have to double the prints. Finding materials is sort of difficult (they have to be top coated to accept the ink), and I have had problems with prints fading. One advantage with the Encad is it does give nice prints (at 600 dpi), but everything has to be laminated.
Solvent based printers will print on just about anything, and if you get one that prints high enough dpi, your prints look nice close up. These don't have to be laminated, but will last longer if they are.
Be carefull when looking at printer dpi. I have been told that this one or that one will print an apparant 1200 dpi, which is a line, because at around 600 to 700 dpi, image quality can't be seen.
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 750 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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well for the fading issue, one should look at the Dico Jet inks for a 3 year UV guarrantee ( 2 years in desert areas) UNLAMINATED. I am currently using these inks with an Encad 600e and a Mutoh 4100 (prismjet). I have done everything from vehicle graphics to billboard. Started with a 24" moved to a 36", then to a 50" and now of coarse I am up to a 60" printer. All were encads, and I am sure my next one will be as well.
-------------------- Glenn Thompson Tell-Tale Signs Williams Lake, BC sign@telus.net (250)398-7446 Posts: 201 | From: Williams Lake, BC | Registered: Dec 2000
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Check www.rolanddga.com 6 year outdoor(oops...60 mo.).....1440 dpi......check the details under FJ and CJ series inkjets I'm using an FJ400 with awesome results!
[ September 03, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
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Ask the guy ANYTHING- as a salesman, I know that if you start aking alot of questions, those who are just pumping out the machines and/or don't know squat will get nervous or blow you off. The companies that really want to treat you as a parter will help you with everything.
Some questions I would suggest (in no particular order)-
How close is the tech support?
What line of media is recommended, and how do I get profiles (you can make your own, but many companies will come and build one for about $250- $500 per...)?
Does it always have to be on (many solvent-baseds do)?
Can I buy media/ink locally, or does it have to come from the Aleutians by fishing boat?
Return policy on anything? WArranty?
TRAINING- how long and how much!!!!
RIP- the RIP is just as important as the rig- if you buy a honkin' machine (I'm partial to Arizonas myself) and a $4 RIP, you will get junk out. Some machines come with a RIP, which may not be a good thing...Research the RIP's just as much as the printers.
Can I come and play? Not a joke- a lot of these machines have these beautiful prints laying there during shows, but they have had HOURS of work to tweak. As well, ask to do the same print twice- cheaper printers will not give you two copies the same color!! Send your production guy to run some prints BEFORE you sign!!
Production SPEED is what? Some printers tell you it PRINTS at this speed, but they forget to tell you it takes 30 minutes to RIP. Ask how long to print this pic from the time you press "print"!!
Onboard memory is how much? Is it expandable?
Solvent-based need outside venting- i.e. next to outside walls is cheaper for ducting (not a question- just a thought)
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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More q's... What kind of rip does it include (if it does). Networkable? Power requirements, ventilation...
Ink costs, estimated cost per square foot, media availability... Productivity at the required resolution... Some printers claim outrageous print speeds, but you can't sell a print printed at that resolution! ASK away now, versus the Why did I do it? question later...
-------------------- Eric Patzer A.S.A.P. Design Lafayette, CO epatzer@earthlink.net Posts: 208 | From: Lafayette, CO USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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For some real good answers, I would contact a gentlemen by the name of Dan Yost at 909 943-8939. He's a specialist on Encads and also a distributor for that 3 year Dico Jet outdoor ink. Real nice guy who might be able to help you out.
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I've been working closely with a lot of different printers and printer users in the various technologies and the above suggestions are excellent.
You should initially scope out what type of work you plan to do (indoor poster/POP, banner, general signage; outdoor general signage, banners, vehicle graphics, etc.) and on what types of media (banner, papers, vinyl, rigid, etc.). What outdoor life expectancy you want at what cost per square foot. High photographic quality or general signage quality?
Water-based ink jet printers like the Encad, HP, Roland HiFi/CammJet, Epson, Colorspan, etc. have lower up-front equipment costs (under $10K to $20K) but higher cost of media (particularly outdoor) because it must be coated to receive the water-based inks (dye for indoor, pigmented for outdoor). Very limited if any vehicle graphic ability. Lamination for outdoors is required.(Bob, what is the sq ft cost of that 6 year guaranteed outdoor media and how fast can you print that 1440 dpi?) Some have print/cut ability.
True solvent printers like the Arizona, DGI, Mutoh Toucan, VUTEk, Scitex, NUR have higher up-front costs ($30K to $500K) but much lower media costs since you can print directly on a wide range of uncoated substrates (though some work better than others). Excellent outdoor durability and vehicle graphic production (most of the big bus and semi wraps are done with these). Lamination is optional but recommended. Photographic quality is difficult to impossible, though the prints look great at a distance. The price of this technology is coming down and is likely where the market is going.
The new class of "eco-solvent" printers like the retro-fitted Roland SolventJet, Roland SolJet, various versions of the Mutoh Falcon, etc. are now in the sub-$20K to $30K range but media compatability is currently an issue for many of them. I suggest a lot of homework before purchasing one of these to be sure it will meet all of your needs. Lamination is optional but recommended. Some have print/cut ability.
Thermal transfer printers like the 15" Gerber Edge, 15" & 24" Roland ColorCamm PC-60 & PC-600, Matan Spark and 36" Sprinter, and 54" Summa Durachrome work great for certain applications. They excel at printing on vinyl. Some have print/cut ability. Lamination is optional but recommended. Detailed full color printing is an issue in some cases.
And as also mentioned above, your choice of RIP software is a critical consideration. This can run from hundreds to thousands of dollars and have varying degrees of complexity and options.
Color management will be a whole new field to master; large format printing is far more involved than desktop...
Feel free to contact me with any specific questions. And as Bob said, www.wide-format-printers.org is a great place to do some research, definitely request their evaluation papers.
Don't make any hasty decisions and do lots of homework. And then something new might come down the pipe next month, the way the technology is changing right now.
Good Luck!!
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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Ken: Cost of printing for 60 month durability: 42" X 50' roll of PGM Premium vinyl---$219.95 43" X 150'roll of PGM Pre.Cast Lamin.-$419.95 The ink varies quite a bit depending on DPI, etc. All this plus 2 or 3 hours of your time. Do the math. Getting $600 to $900 for a 4X8 spells profits
posted
$20/sq ft in profits is pretty nice math Bob!
And those are some pretty nice signs on your site. I particularly liked the Rocky's Landscaping.
I've worked with the six color CammJet and really liked the output, I bet the eight color is really spectacular. I should be profiling it by the end of the year and we will have some great media options for you to try.
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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