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I have a customer that called about his van graphics that are failing. Sure enough it has all seem to shrunk some as to where you can see "glue edge". It was Universal's premium Metallics that they claim is a 5yr. product. It was applied wet 2 1/2 yrs. ago. The van was prepped well and the install went well,....what gives? It has early stages "crack and peel" as well. I know this customer takes good care of vehicles, and the only thing that I can think of , is that the van is all black and maybe it is due to excessive heat? It is going to be an awkward situation for me to work through this one, and I know he will want Metallics again. Any suggestions/solutions to this situation will be appreciated.
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Rich, for what it's worth my black truck had a few types of vinyl in our tropical heat for 3 years with no problems. I used Arlon H/P Arlon Reflective, & sign-gold. The trouble I had was trying to take them off after 3 years, but that leads me to one thought for you. First of all I can imagine the crack & peel metallic is going to be some work to remove. My reflective logo left all the adhesive behind even when using heat to remove & the solid coverage of adhesive was much more work then H/P adhesive to remove, but the large lettering was reflective on top of a shadow/outline done in High Performance. As for removing that I just pulled back the corner of the base layer of H/P & all 4 colors incl. the reflective came right off with adhesive in no time.
So my thought was that if you were able to incorporate an additional layer (at the customers expense of course) that could even be black & only a little, or no larger in size, so the look is the same. Just a guess here, but even black vinyl is probably not as hot as black metal, so it may address your concern.
Hopefully you won't be asked to redo it again in 3 years, but that would be one of my fears in doing it twice, & this idea, if not ending up as a solution for the crack & peel, would at the very least make an easier removal.
Just curious, when you say metallic you mean the metal flake type usually referred to as metallic & not the polyester mirror polish silver or gold that is not recommended outdoors?
BTW on my truck I never edge-sealed the sign-gold, & that stuff was even tougher to remove then reflective.
Oh yeah, wanted to add that I guess you will be expected to redo at no charge. That's never fun but if you do go that far, I think you are completely justified in saying that metallics are only available a second time without warrenty if he wants to chance it. Also 2-1/2 years is not really that bad, so I would try to get my client to agree to partial payment to cover the half-life that has already benefitted him if he's going to drive out of there with an all new job.
[ August 30, 2002, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
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Doug's idea about the black background vinyl is a good one. I had a customer that had about 80 - 90 peterbilts on the road. His idea was to run these trucks about 3 years and then upgrade to a new model. Every year we do about 30 new ones and the process continues. His theory was to run "nice" trucks, his drivers are happy, maintenance is low and he can transfer warranty with the sale. This was before the bottom fell out in the truck market.
Anyway, in order to make it easy to swap these trucks out, all of the main graphics were done with a black underlay vinyl (on black trucks). Most of these trucks ran in the southwestern USA and a lot of the drivers complained about the excessive heat, especially when the air conditioner would goof up. The vinyl on the main copy was a holographic film. If kept clean, this stuff held up beyond 3 years. The ones that did not clean regularly would develop a grimy film on the surface of the holographic film... this was easily cleaned when needed.
When it came time to remove the films, they had a tough time, so tough that they asked if I'd go back to painting the trucks as they thought that would be easier to remove. I showed the shop guys how to remove the vinyl the right way and there were no more problems with that.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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Good ideas there. One word of caution though. Be very careful in what materials you choose to use when overlaying vinyls.
Different types of vinyls shrink at different rates. If you have a cast vinyl over a calendared vinyl...it's possible in extreme temperature climates to have one vinyl shrink more rapidly than another causing edge lifting, cracking, etc.
This is not always the case...but it can happen. I had some calendared overlaid on the top of premium...and after some time, the calendared pulled back on the cast and left the telltale glue marks visible on top of the cast vinyl. It didn't pull anything up, but demonstrated the difference in vinyl properties. The cast didn't move at all.
And conversely, I've had a base layer of calendared's edges peel up while the cast remained tight and intact on top....but the calendared peeled/pulled back just to the first edge of the cast. The cast on top created a 1/4" border when overlaid on the calendared.
I try to use as much similar vinyl's as possible, which I agree is not always possible or practical.
Just something to think about.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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If I'm not mistaken Universal's metallic is an Avery product. Unlike Doug, the only time we get failure of metallics is when applying it ontop of another vinyl. This usually being Gerber/3M metallic silver for some reason.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rich, I have also had metalic failures on dark surfaces, and not on light surfaces. I do think it to be a heat issue. Your customer should relocate to the coast where it's cooler. Have them call me when they finish unpacking.
PS. We had the FJ on Clear Lake recently and I was thinking of you.
[ August 30, 2002, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Rick Sacks ]
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6812 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If it is an Avery made metallic, according to their color selector selector book I have, not all metallics have the same life. The Avery product no. has the life expectancy spec in each of it's product nos. and the metallics range from 3-7 years. For example Bronze is no A3730-M, the 3 after the A means that color has a 3 year life. Dark Charcol's no is A7708-M which means it has a 7 year life expectancy. Both are listed as 5-7 year metallics in most suppliers catalogs but they all are not 5-7 year as Avery's own catalog and product codes point out. There are several that have that 3 year spec..Gold, Bright Gold, Light Gold and Bronze are among them. I just noticed this myself a while back. Also, if Avery's products are like this, then I am sure that a lot of the other manufactuers metallics have similar lifes. They probably use an average from all the colors to come up with a spec.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rich, you might want to contact Universal to see if they will at least give you new material.
Arlon, if you call about a material problem, will send out replacement material, in my case, full rolls. That takes a little bit of the sting out.
I had a titanium silver metallic on my red truck and it started looking droopy between three and four years. I made the mistake of just letting it go. When I finally stripped it, it lightly shadowed the two doors, which looked ok after a little compounding and waxing. The tailgate was another story. After the vinyl was off, the letters were permanently etched into the paint. Polish and wax helped but the image was still there when I sold the truck. I used the 3M adhesive remover drill and pads to remove the vinyl. It was still a bear of a job.
The original equipment pinstripe on the truck was very close to the same color as the vinyl I put on. It still looked pretty much like new. I even buffed off a piece of the pinstripe to see the paint underneath, and it was bright and shiny like new paint. Now, if we just knew who made the vinyl for the stripe, that is the good stuff.
My point is, all these vendors claim they are the good as the best, but on these hard service jobs, there is a difference in materials.
This is an old story, but there were two fleets of trucks here locally, done about the same time around 1990. One fleet was done in 3M/Gerber, the other in Arlon. At ten years the 3M was still presentable. The Arlon was long gone. Arlon made its 7 year promise but Gerber outperformed at ten years. That made me a real believer in 3M for the really tough jobs.
Good luck to you, man, I don't envy you your task at hand. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Well I don't feel like the "Lone Ranger" anymore! Hey I really appreciate everyone's input here, along with some great ideas as well. The vinyl involved here is Universal's Premium Cast Metallic. It has smallish flakes , as opposed to the Ultra. #825 Violet Mist and #876 Bright Purple (hey...it's California). Universal actually never says 5yrs., they say up to 5yrs. and that includes for use in transportation. But that is the way they word all of their products with the "up to" phrase. So actually they never even warranty for 1yr. or a day for that matter. Maybe the brochure was written by an attorney. But they do in the same paragraph claim that their Metallic Bright Gold #069 has 3yr. durability, which would lead one to believe that the other "superior colors" would at least get that far. This particular customer is very picky to begin with and I could go for some comprimise here, but then what? Black underlay? Although that is a great solution and has those other type of uses as well, I don't see why I have to go that route when these products are suppose to deliver. Those Metallics cost a small fortune in the first place in 24" rolls. In the past this customer has always driven new vehicles every couple of years,....maybe I dodged this earlier I don't know. These are large aggresive graphics and I do not relish in their removal, but at the same time I can see it from customers point of view. I guess I will have to contact Universal and see what they say. Again thanks to all!
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Should have done it dry. I hope you did'nt use any of that commercial fluid that everbody seems to get sucked into. I know the vinyl people definately do not approve of it according to the conversations I have had with reps from vinyl mfgs. But...................
Wilson, aka Wilard
-------------------- Wilson Ardmore Sun Signs 164 Team Track Rd. Auburn, Ca hatfield@vfr.net Posts: 100 | From: Bowman,Ca | Registered: Aug 2002
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I can tell you too, that I have been to vinyl manufacturers plants and toured their buildings and seen the process.
Metallics actually have a metal flake mixed in with the vinyl "goo" before it is cast or calendared.
If you can imagine a smooth batch of goo having rigid flakes of vinyl introduced....you can see where there are thousands of points of separation possible and less Cohesive properties. This is why you notice that Metallic vinyl "rips" very easily as compared to solid colors.....because it separates along the metal flake particals.
It's kind of like putting chocolate chips in the cookie dough...after they're baked, when you pull a piece of the cookie apart, they always seem to come apart around the chocolate chips.
Metallics plain and simple won't/can't last as long as solid, Non-infiltrated vinyls. My opinion.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Rich, My sympathies go out to you on that one.
There is a lot of good information already posted but I'll add my penny's worth, if it's worth that .
-Metallics typically do not last as long as regular colors, in intermediate or HP.
-Higher heat can definitely be responsible for out of the ordinary shrinkage. Being on a black vehicle raises the likelyhood of vinyl failure for this reason (heat accelerates plasticizer migration).
-Just because a vinyl fails in one out of many similar applications, doesn't mean that the vinyl (anybody's) is junk (the inverse of this can also be true). In talking to hundreds of sign people and sign supply distributors, every manufacturer has occasional failures that no one can attribute to any particular cause, only some exceptional set of circumstances. (beware this blasphemy may be true: even 3M has had vinyl fail occasionally) Their real quality can only be judged by a very large statistical sampling of failures to applications and how well they take care of any problems that do occur.
-Overlaying different types of vinyl can be very bad due to differing shrink rates. One of my first experiences of this was a report of a failure on one side of a vehicle that after investigation, a holographic film with a shrink rate of around .03" (that actually shrank closer to .25") was overlaid on our 651 Intermediate with a shrink rate of .016". The holographic film pulled up the 651. The other side of the truck looked fine... who knows why one side did and the other didn't
-As Rich stated most warranties state "up to...". We are the only manufacturer (I'm currently aware of) whose warranty states "minimum life of...". I'm not going to say that our material will never fail under any circumstances but I'm happy to say it's a rare occurrance and when something does happen we stand behind our warranty and do our best to make it right.
My parting thoughts: Because something (anything) works every time but one, doesn't mean it's junk. Because something works every time but one, could also be that all those other times were just luck...
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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