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I noticed in another thread that the conversation shifted into talk about lasers and I'm interested in what everyone has to say regarding them so I thought I'd start a new conversation and get you all on board. I don't have a laser but when I go to the trade shows I'm always looking at them. I'm not quite sure how I would use one however and that's probably why I haven't purchased one yet, they are a fairly considerable investment. It seems that if you don't have your own path then all you would be doing is producing low margin trinkets. I'd be curious to know what you are using your lasers for.
I recently looked at AP Laser, which is a Chinese model that is unique in that you can place large objects under it or actually place it on the floor or anything else to laser in place. I'm always hesitant to rely on Chinese parts and service however so I don't know if I'd ever purchase one. At the SGIA show last week, I saw that Multicam is now in the large table based laser business with a new model that they are offering, so I guess the laser business is good. For "regular" lasers I always seem to like the Universals, I'm under the impression that they are one of the only manufacturers that produce their own laser tubes.
-------------------- Gary Boros SIGNWORKS STUDIOS LLC Monroe, Connecticut, USA Posts: 264 | From: Monroe, Connecticut, USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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I saw a Laser thingy at this guy's shop. He "Carved Out" my name on some wood. I could see where that could be a little money maker.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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We are seriously looking at MultiCam's new 400 watt laser. It's a 4x8 workhorse!
When we first purchased out CNC router I had no real idea how we would use that machine. I just knew it would give us a world full of new possibilities. It changed our way of doing things and added a whole lot of capabilities. It also paid for itself many times over since.
When we got our plasma cutter it was the same situation. We were farming out about $10K of cutting a year (five or six sheets of plate steel) at that point. Enter the plasma cutter. This machine changed our business yet again in a dramatic fashion. We have put hundreds of sheets of steel on the machine in the two years we've owned it and when we combined plasma cut steel with routered Precision Board we were able to do some pretty amazing projects.
With the CNC laser we imagine the same will happen yet again. It will give us a whole new level of closeup and precise detail to our work. We have one project in the works right now that will keep us busy for the next two years and use the laser to the max create all sorts of wonderfully detailed pieces which will be layered in to all the other things we do. In the process we will do things previously only imagined.
With the MultiCam machines we haven't had much reason to call them for service but we know if we need it they stand firmly behind their top end machines without fail.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Lasers... Routers... Like Dr Seuss above, I had no idea where the path would lead after getting our antique cnc router, but the path has been tremendous.
A friend offered to sell me their laser 3 years ago for $8k - they were upgrading to something bigger. I declined, saying that I had no call for one, and I could cut much of what it'd do, on the router.
Last year I had the opportunity to buy a very old 45watt Universal laser.(USA built) That was good enough to whet my appetite, cover the learning curve, understand the processes and materials and approaches to different engraving methods and it was brilliant.
Little did I know all laser tubes have a lifespan, and mine was just about over. It died 5 years to the day, of its manufactured date, and cost me nearly $5k to get reconditioned & regassed, from Australia to USA. Suddenly it was great again for a few months, then the Y axis started playing up. I'm still diagnosing my way through that... But like with our router, I can't afford the $ to get a tech to drive out here and do something - I need to and enjoy knowing how to diagnose and fix stuff myself - whether others consider it efficient or not!
(The same with our HP Latex printer. I bought it for next to nothing, giant learning curve, but fixed it, and it's terrific.)
Anyhow, I had the opportunity to buy a 2nd hand Chinese Goldenlaser 6 months ago. It's a 130 watt unit, 1300 x 700 bed. 2011 model. In its day it was a rather costly unit - not cheap junk.
Totally different learning curve to the Universal laser.
The American lasers (Universal, Trotec & Epilog) work directly from Corel Draw. Software is DEAD easy, and they work from the word go. Did I say how great their software is?
They also have air-cooled RF or ceramic tubes which have the ability to switch on & off very quickly for engraving, and to work at 100% power all day long. RF tubes operate at a low voltage and very high current, to fire them.
Chinese lasers - well they all depend on the controller, and Ruida make among the most popular of the best ones, but our Goldenlaser came with its own proprietory software and a dongle. The software is obnoxious, but it works. It is safer to do stuff in Corel, export as a DXF, then import than into the Golden software, apply the speed and power and acceleration figures, and let it go.
However Chinese laser tubes are of the glass CO2 type, that work at low current (eg 20mA) and super high voltage, and they need to be water-cooled with a chiller that can cost up to $1000, and they are poor at rapid switching on and off as for engraving (you'll get a deeper spike at the start) but are great for plain cutting. They're also tons cheaper than the USA machines, BUT canNOT operate at 100% of the rated tube power or current without drastically shortening their life. 80% of max tube rating in current (milliamps) is the most that is feasible.
There is quality Chinese and there are junk Chinese ones. Avoid the Ebay blue and white K40 clones. The internet is full of forums and groups of people explaining how to get them working, because they often do not.
Telling the difference between the good and bad Chinese is the trick - it's hard from a novice's point of view. Learning to test the focus, and align the mirrors is also an interesting learning curve - you need to be in a good mood that day! It IS worth doing though.
I did see an Epilog last week that's $200 000 to buy - lovely unit, huge 2 x 4 metre bed, sensor to find registration marks, vacuum bed, all sorts of stuff.Very clean too. Ours looks like a BBQ gone bad, but as the 3rd owner, I've inherited the smell and look that came with it.
Usefulness: I'd never want to be without it! The smaller ULS I quickly outgrew. The bigger Chinese one is a great asset. Most of our work is 3D acrylic stuff - I cannot explain how the signage workload here morphed into doing mainly 3D letters for LED lightboxes etc for shopping centre clients, but it has.
The router took a back seat for a while, but it's back in action again.
Interestingly with both the router & the lasers, the resolution parameters were incorrect when we got them. I found that with the big laser I was cutting somethng that had to line up with some routed stuff and it did not line up at all!
So I set the laser to cut a rectangle in cardboard - 1200 x 600 mm, and it cut it 1209 x 604.5mm Too big all round. After tweaking the steps per mm by the ratio it was out by, it's spot-on correct now. Our router was also wrong when we first got it- fortunately it was an absorbable error - I needed a 3000mm piece cut, and it cut it at 2994mm, which could have been drastic, but was not.
The chinese laser will cut 25mm acrylic in one pass at about its maximum, and it cuts 20mm with no problems. You must be aware of the potential for fires though... and the marks left by the beam possibly charring the edges, depending on what you use. That's part of the learning curve! You do NOT walk away and leave it to run! And did I say how bad the software is?
I bought the RDWorks Ruida6442G controller- just have to fit it when I decide I can spare a day to think about it and dissect the machine. The RDWorks software for it works as a plug-in for Corel Draw.
There will be 2nd hand lasers available - and I believe there is value in them, despite no warranty - but it helps to have an idea of basic cnc systems.
Hope that helps!
P.S. I bought a spare ULS V400 two months ago that was dead, to use for spare parts if I ever needed them. It cost only $130, and the power supply and the stepper motors are all fine. PLus it came with a spare power supply, and 2 dead ceramic/RF tubes.
I plan to make a project of it and rebuild it with quality chinese innards - just to see how I go. Someone said it was not worth it, and it's cheaper to buy a chinese system already in one piece. Maybe they're right, but I'll know that this won't have the bottom-of-the-range in component quality at all, and it is a kind of hobby, resurrectnig stuff like this (if possible!).
[ October 18, 2017, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Ian Stewart-Koster ]
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I meant to sayabove that the Chinese unit is the better for cutting, but the American Universal was by far the better for engraving- especially photo quality work.
I ran a photo file (raster engraved) on both, and the 45 watt ULS finshed it in half the time that the 130 watt Goldenlaser did.
Another difference between the 2 types; the ULS has a bed that you raise or lower to bring the top of the object up to the focus position of 2" below the lens. The Chinese one has a fixed bed, and the lens is in a tube that you raise or lower till it reaches a predetermined spacer height above the substrate. IN ours, for a 4" focal length lens, the spacer is 8mm thick that the nozzle sits on, for correct focus.
[ October 18, 2017, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Ian Stewart-Koster ]
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"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Hi Ian- all the modern chicom lasers I have seen have adjustable beds and either 1.5 or 2.0" lenses. Otherwise I agree. Most chicom mfgrs buy the cabinet and assemble the rest, and the parts used vary wildly. And the good part brands are copied widely so it is often a crapshoot. It helps to know what to ask for... then you have a chance of quality parts.
posted
Yes, Gene - it's a bit of a lottery - but generally if you buy 'too' cheaply, you will regret it, in the laser department.
Having said that, our 2nd hand Golden Laser cost me $3200. But... it came with a woeful water cooler, so add $950 for the CW5200, and add $160 for fuel to go and get it from the seller, and 2 days time, and half a day setting it up, and it had no exhaust extractor (so I doubled into the other one we have) otherwise add $300+ for something useful...
and suddenly I could have bought a chinese one brand new via Ebay for less $ for the same rating.
Who is the fool? I don't know. Maybe me? I believe what I have though was originally a $20k machine, not a $5k machine that's deteriorated a bit. That's the difference. The axis drives are all very new looking Leetro drives worth a few hundred $ each, and the tube is a RECI, not an unbranded clone, so there is quality in it, despite the country of origin and the abominable software!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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