posted
Well I did it again. Got asked to reletter an existing awning. It looks like it was made out of Eradicable awning material. Does anyone know if it is possible to take a solvent to remove the rest of the color and expose the white awning and repaint it? or should I just repaint it with a couple coats of white, mask the lettering and then paint it red? I was thinking of using an outdoor acrylic paint like weatherall or Valspar. It is a lighted sign so the risk of ghosting is there... the images shown are of the lettering that is on there and what they want on it. Simple red awning with white lettering. There is vinyl on the awning which is coming off. It was done in 2012 by another company.
-------------------- Dita Mallon Dita's Graphics and Signs, Inc. Sumner, Ia Posts: 119 | From: Sumner, Iowa | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
So the awning was originally white, then painted red, all except the letters so the light will shine through? What a mess. If you try to remove the red, it's gonna be a mess on the sidewalk. You could try to remove some of the red in a small corner to see what happens. If you paint it all red then letter with white, the light may not shine though as it should. Worst case senario, it gets a new awning cover.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
We plan on taking the awning down which is a plus. Looks like to me when they built this awning they used a material like Arlon Colorkote. You can buy this flexible substrate in the color you want, red for this one. Then cover the areas you want to keep red in this case and use an eradicator solvent to remove the red and expose the white underneath. So the words Schemmels family food is the white exposed and the grocery sack has vinyl lettering over the exposed white I'm wondering if I paint the exposed white areas red, then paint the whole thing red, hoping one coat plan for 2, and then stencil the new name on it with white paint... They want to save money and reuse awning. They are aware that there could be ghosting.
-------------------- Dita Mallon Dita's Graphics and Signs, Inc. Sumner, Ia Posts: 119 | From: Sumner, Iowa | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
When I work on awnings of this type for the awning companies around here, I use acetone to eradicate. It's available just about everywhere and costs considerably less than the "official" solvents.
It is possible to tape off the top and bottom and eradicate the middle to leave a large white sign band with red bands at the top and bottom. You could then letter it with translucent red. It would certainly look better than painting over the whole thing and lettering. Painting, then eradicating on a backlit awning will likely be a disaster.
Eradicating and then coming back with translucent lettering is not that difficult.
I did a couple of quick renditions below. I didn't exactly match the typeface.
Edited to add:
The top drawing isn't too hard to accomplish in the shop, although I've found large lettering is easier to install on a stretched awning since installing the awning material stretches the material and can distort letters.
The bottom one, using a large reversed out piece of translucent would be more challenging on a work table or stretched awning. If you are an accomplished painter of backlit materials, you could eradicate to white, paint mask the lettering on the white, paint the translucent red field and then strip the mask off the letters.
You could also talk to a local awning company to see what they'd charge to make a new face and then you could eradicate it however you wish, which might be cost competitive with all the steps of trying to make the old one work in an aesthetic manner.
[ October 27, 2016, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: David Harding ]
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I agree!!!! Thanks for the rendition ideas!! Superb! I wasn't sure if I could eradicate it "some more" but it would make sense. For the bottom rendition what type of paint would you use for the red?
The labor in taking the awning down and putting up is a killer. Small town, one company that has the lifts, no competition.....$$$$ And I don't have that type of equipment. I'm just a small sign shop, like it that way.
They might just remove the awning all together and go with a flat panel. Would suit me fine too.
Thanks again David for the input and info. You are awesome!!
-------------------- Dita Mallon Dita's Graphics and Signs, Inc. Sumner, Ia Posts: 119 | From: Sumner, Iowa | Registered: Aug 2002
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If doing it on site is an option, you might explore that. It will save a bunch of money on the removal and install. I had to rebrand a storage company on location at several of their facilities about three years ago. I was scared stiff but it turned out to be much easier than I feared. The attached picture shows the scope of work of one of their numerous awnings.
I eradicated to a white background and then installed translucent vinyl lettering. All was done on site using ladders. You could probably accomplish the same thing.
I used a straight edge to mark the area to eradicate and then used masking tape to tape it off. I probably used a quart of acetone to eradicate that portion and maybe a quarter roll of paper towel. I taped the borders with masking tape, then added transfer tape to mask a larger area. On the bottom, I wrapped the transfer tape around to the inside because I didn't want any acetone to drip and run and remove more than was necessary. I taped the edge of the transfer tape with another layer of masking tape just to make sure nothing ran under the transfer tape.
It's been decades since I've tried to spray a lighted face. It takes some real skill to do so and make sure the color is even. If you are going to try to spray it, you might check with the manufacturer of the material for recommendations or talk to someone who's experienced in flex faces. The paint they would use would likely work.
I'm guessing your awning is about 12' long. If so, on what I've shown on the bottom, the red band would be about 24" height. You could probably carefully install that as a translucent overly. If you do, try to tape hinge it and work each direction from the center. Have your overlay a couple inches long and trim at the ends. You'd also have to use plenty of Rapid Tac II to work out the bubbles and get a clean install. The background has a bit of subtle texture which will help with the bubbles, as long as you don't stick it down too hard first and then try to eliminate them.
You should figure spending the better part of a day on this. A gallon of acetone and a roll of paper towel will do the job.
You probably don't have much competition as far as pricing this, so be sure to cover yourself well on it. As far as materials go, I'd figure on double the materials, just in case you mangle it beyond repair the first time you try to install. Probably no one else in town would have any idea of how to proceed with this.
If you want to carry the white stripes around the corners, I'd handle it in the following order:
1. Eradicate the center white panel. Do not continue the white panel around the corner at this point. 2. Install the red overlay and trim it. 3. Use the edges of your red overlay and white center panel to figure where to mask to continue the stripes.
Edited to add:
When removing the old graphics which have the overlay on the shopping bag logo on the left, be careful if using adhesive remover on any glue left on the panel. It will remove the red color. I'd leave the adhesive on for the moment because it will come off when you eradicate with acetone.
Most of these awnings are installed with a few angle clips. With a helper or two on other ladders, You might be able to take the whole thing down, frame and all, to take to your shop. Leave the cover on the frame while you work and then reinstall. That might be easier than removing the cover from the frame and bringing just the cover into your shop.
[ October 29, 2016, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: David Harding ]
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I worked for a company for a couple years that did eradicated awnings almost exclusively. Our big customer was a truck stop chain. We made awnings and fascias for the buildings, and fascias for the structures over the gas pumps, all eradicated. All repairs and changes to existing installations were done on location, and they rarely sent more than one person to do repairs. Usually it was me.
Some repair jobs involved fixing the aluminum structure after it was bumped by a semi, but often the repair involved spot-eradicating and installing new graphics (sometimes a reversed-out overlay). David's first example would be by far the easiest. Spot-eradicate a large rectangle, then apply translucent vinyl lettering to the eradicated space. Applying a large reversed-out graphic is trickier, but I did it many times.
Working off a ladder is okay for just lettering. But I would figure in a scissor lift rental for installing a large reversed-out piece.
I got used to doing this type of work alone. I used lots of tape hinges, always 2-inch tape, sometimes Gorilla tape in cool weather. I usually worked wet, usually without solvent, for large pieces. I seldom used Rapid Tac or a similar product on these awnings because I always needed more working time than the solvent would allow. Or I used what I call the "moist method" for individual letters and smaller pieces (This involves wiping the area with a damp chamois just before laying the vinyl. It is more forgiving than laying dry, but allows you to remove the mask almost immediately just like dry). The moist method is a nice compromise between wet and dry.
Intermediate vinyl makes a good mask and will allow you to eradicate clean lines. I like the aggressiveness of the adhesion of intermediate. The edges of the vinyl are less likely to lift compared to a low-tack mask like Gerbermask. This is important, in my opinion, when you are working vertically. Just remove the intermediate soon after eradicating or it will leave glue. The brand I like is Neschen. We used acetone, too. The downside of acetone is that it's harder on your skin than the Cooley solvent. Of course, use gloves. Dish washing gloves like the Mr. Clean brand will not disintegrate as quickly as latex or nitrile gloves.
I would not try painting an awning on site if it is to be backlighted. If the paint is brushed or rolled it will look pretty bad when backlit. And spraying on location is difficult. Vinyl is the only practical method.
Is it easier to remove the awning and do it in the shop? Not in my opinion. Onsite it is already stretched and ready to work on, even if it's sometimes loose and filthy. Of course, when the job is a thousand miles away bringing it back to the shop is out of the question.
The only real problems I ever had involved wind and rain. I worked through a light snowfall once in Illinois. And once I had problems and I had to stay over an extra day in Coachella, Cal. But that worked out fine because later a girl at a bar gave me a ticket to a concert that night in Palm Springs (her date had stood her up). So I got to see Pat Benatar. I never told the boss about that. I didn't want him to think I did it on purpose.
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Brad -- Thank you so much for the information also!! You guys are a wealth of knowledge and thanks for sharing....
I'm going to do a spot check on the awning just to make sure my assumptions are right and that I can eradicate it. They agreed to move the pop machines that are in the way and then I would put up scaffolding. A sissors lift is a good idea too. Won't hog the sidewalk that way. and it looks like the weather is going to hold for this week. Kinda pushing it here.... weather can change just like that here in Iowa
I like the top design idea to. Eradicate to a white panel and then add the translucent lettering. Simpler...
I will see what monday brings. Thanks bunches!!
-------------------- Dita Mallon Dita's Graphics and Signs, Inc. Sumner, Ia Posts: 119 | From: Sumner, Iowa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I haven't had to use heat when I've done it. I just pick up a corner on whatever I'm removing and peel it off. Afterwards, there may be some adhesive cleanup left. Brad is obviously the go-to person on this. He probably worked more with this type of awning in in some weeks than I have total.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:I haven't had to use heat when I've done it. I just pick up a corner on whatever I'm removing and peel it off. Afterwards, there may be some adhesive cleanup left. Brad is obviously the go-to person on this. He probably worked more with this type of awning in in some weeks than I have total.
This is a good question and I was actually waiting for David to comment on it. I can see where a heat gun could easily ruin an awning. In the whole time I worked for the awning-only company, I don't remember ever using a heat gun to remove graphics from an installed awning. If I remember right (it's been ten years), the acetone always seemed to soften the existing vinyl enough to get it off. Then I used the acetone to concentrate on removing the adhesive, too. I do remember scraping pretty aggresively with plastic chisels and Lil Chizlers.
If I were to do it now I would try heat, but carefully, just waving it and not concentrating the heat in any one area.
Obviously, a hot day in summer would be a better time to remove vinyl (from anything).
I only remember one time when I had a real problem with graphics removal from an awning. It appeared that lettering had been cut out of clear vinyl and adhered to red Cooley material. Then the background was eradicated, but the clear lettering was left covering the remaining ink, not removed, so that each red letter still had the clear over it. The awning was several years old and the clear vinyl came off in small shreds when I tried to peel it. It was a nightmare. Even after the clear layer and the remaining red ink was removed, there was a pink ghost remaining. The lettering was still quite readable. I used practically every chemical I could think of to work on the ghosting, including chlorine bleach, and I went through more than one pair of gloves. What ended up working the best was a can of "RV Cleaner" that I found at Walmart, along with kitchen 'scrubbie' pads and a stiff brush. The RV Cleaner left the awning snow white. I have not seen that product since then.
It might be worth it for Dita to post this same question at Signs 101 for more input.
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well, I got the awning done!! Ended up painting it white first, acrylic paint, rolled it. Then did a frisket and rolled it red. Turned out pretty good. They aren't going to light it which is why I went the way I did. They wanted a red background with white lettering.
Thanks David for the layout idea and helpful info! Thanks Brad for the helpful info too!
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