posted
In a previous post that Wayne Webb made, he was (as most of us have) lamenting having to jump through the hoops and ladders of getting a permit for a sign.
There's nothing uniform anywhere. Streets are pretty much the same in most cities. Therefore, why can't right-of-ways also be the same. Setbacks could be the same, from streets, from driveways, from intersections.
Requirements could be the same. Height above ground, wind load (required/not required), types of materials, etc.
Costs could be comparable. Even in adjoining towns, counties or cities, vast differences exist in requirements and costs of permits. Is it greed, or the size of the city, or something someone just said, "This is what we're going to charge."
We don't currently require permits for signs in our city (which is fine by me), but our council is wanting to enact it, and have no idea about how. They've talked to a couple of adjoining cities, gotten a list of their fees, and preparing to jump off a cliff.One city charges by the square footage of the sign, and the mayor thought that was the way to go.
I'm of a different opinion. As a member of the council, I'm trying to argue a way to be fair to everyone (I know, that's not the way government works, but...). By his reasoning, say a sign with 32 square feet ( a 4 X 8) may be charged $50 for a permit. I don't think it's fair to charge the same permit fee to a man who has a 4X8 plywood sign, as a man who has a 4X8 lighted sign; because one costs many times more than the other.
We've tabled the discussion, until next month. Hopefully, more research can be done; but I'm of the opinion that the permit fee ought to be pro-rated according to the cost of the job. The more a sign costs, the more the permit costs, and vice versa.
What's your opinion? Is that not fair?
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've built a house, paid for the permit, did my own electrical work and paid for that one. Built my shop, then had another one built by a contractor; paid for those permits. One inspector added charges for an HVAC system and other stuff, that weren't even in the PLANS and charged me double for that. Then I found out he got paid a commission which explained the lying cheating part. (I paid him a visit and got my money back BTW) From my experiences permits, at least in my neck of the woods, have turned into just another means for the state to extort money. Why? Because pretty much everything I've built was never inspected.
My suggestion would be to charge for the permit according to how involved or complex the inspection is going to be, and only pay the lazy no-account hammerknockers AFTER they've completed the inspection.
[ June 11, 2016, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Setbacks and wind loads can not be uniform. Setbacks are determined by location and road conditions.
A major thoroughfare will need a different setback than a low traffic road will.
Wind loads are determined by location. A sign in a high wind location has different requirements than a sign that isn't.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
the best story i got with PERMITS......is this. 2004-5 when i built my 24' X 30 16' shop i did all the legal stuff. permit for the building. #1. at this point i did not go for electric or anything else. just a PERMIT TO BUILD A 140 MPH wind loaded commercial rated metal building. made it a lot simpler. 1ST off.......here i have 2 acres. existing house is right at 1800 sq ft. i wanted a building that woulda been 24 X 40= 960 sf. BUT THE RULES HERE... i had to stay within 1/2 the sqft of the house..NO MORE. so that put me at 900 sf for the building. well it was a kit......and had to either be 40 or 30, not 35..so i went to 30. 720sf. at the permit office, iam fighting with them to get the 24 X 40 and they arent giving any. so i asked the guy...."i was working this building as a 8-10 ft tall........how high can go without running into any other permit rules? he said oh you can build 3 stories on that 720 sf footprint........iam like REALLY?? ok.....so instead of 8-10 ft i went right up to 16'. thsi gives me 720sf floor, and i can build a loft on one end to get me nearer the 900-960 sf. which is what i did inside i built a 8 x 24=192 sf loft. its almost 7 feet tall on one end and 5 1/2 on the other....worked out great. i am in the process now of adding a 10 X 22=220 sf on the end closest to the house, enclosing it and making my pottery room there. so in all i got 720+192+220=1132sf to work with. got the building up followed all the permit rules.....for the most part...... the funnest one was permit people said i had to to another place get a permits so they would know i wasnt putting a building on my OR THE NEIGHBORS SEPTIC TANK!!!! ok i beleive there are some this stupid......but not me........i got there with a full survey of the property, they tell me to write them a check for $75 and they will send someone to PHYSICALLY locate my septic tank. ok....couple days later i get a knock on the door i open it tis the guy for the county......shows his id and said " iam here to locate your septic tank." i said ok...SHUT THE DOOR!!!!!! HE knocks again.......says " will you shw me where it is?" i looked at him and said....OK GIVE ME MY $75 BACK........and i will show you.......OTHER WIZE......GO FISH)))))
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's pretty much my point, Joe. It is definitely a gold mine for many communities. They have found so many things they can charge you for, as Wayne found out.
When we lived in Brooksville, FL, I went into the building/zoning office and asked a general question about what kind of signs required a permit. The guy told me "everything you do needs a permit. If you put up a new mailbox, or paint the shutters on your house, you need a permit." Now that's the extreme BS degree , that probably most people don't pay any attention to; and it's ridiculous.
I really don't have a problem for paying for a permit, done in a fair and impartial manner; but when they start getting too crazy, like......in Cincinnati....one community. They were designated as some kind of historical area. We had to take the design/plan before a "board", that critiqued it, asked questions about how well it would fit in with surrounding signs/businesses, etc. We had to pay for that "privilege". Then, it had to go before an engineering board, to determine the wind load, material strength, etc. (crap). We had to pay for that. Then, when we finally did get the OK, ( this was in the winter, by the way), we were told that when we got the holes dug for the posts, we had to call and an inspector would come out and measure to make sure they were deep enough and wide enough. It took us two days to dig the holes, due to cold, frozen ground and snow flurries. When we were finally ready, we called, and waited in the cold for 2 hours, until the "inspector" arrived. He walked over, looked into the holes, and said, "OK guys, you're good to go.".....and walked away and left. This is total BS......and of course, we had to pay for that too.
It's just amazingly frustrating, the degree to which some bureaucracies will go to, to complicate our lives and our businesses/jobs.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
yep its ridiculous. like i said i didnt get any other permit then for A BUILDING to begin with. after i got the building up and doors hung THEN I WENT FOR AN ELECTRICAL permit. doing it this way made it a lot easier....now all i had to dea with was the electrical inspector. bout 3-4 years before i built the building, i had to run a 220V house service UNDERGROUND. the reaso was the house was 160 ft from the pole, and house eaves were not over 10-12 ft tall. the length and weight of the feed line........pulled out of the house a couple times...and doing the underground was prefered by the power company and they made it affordable. charged me $160 and they supplied the 3" gray pvc pipe, the lien would run in. i had to rent a backhoe to dig the 3 ft deep trench, the electrical inspector had to come out and ok the new wall box/meter/circuit breaker box....that was required with underground wiring. i met him then and was really a nice guy and made sure i did as was required.....he slapped a sticker on it and the power co came in ran a new service wire and hooked it up. no more almost tearing the wires off the house when i had a box truck/ups come in here.))))) so when i went for the electirc in the shop.....i called him, i had the permit, he came one day and told exactly how to set the meter box, what to use for wire from meter to new 200 amp service box, and to install 1 light on a flip switch, one receptical with a GFI plug.....and he would pass it. all electrical after that was MY RESPONSIBILTY..... to do it properly and no more permits were required. so then i put in my overhead floresent, my 220V for the air compressor/welder. another 220V for the A/C/heater. ran all the receptacles 4 per box, at 10 foot intervals))))waist high. so i am never 10 ft from a receptacle))) HISTORICAL DISTRICT.... is such bullschit!!!! mexican restaurant went down town. they tell me to make 2 new plastic face inserts for EXISTING BOXS.....i do and go down on a sunday and changed them out.......NOW NOTHIG WAS DONE STRUCTURALLY!!! couple days later i get a call from the HISTORICAL DISTRICT PERMIT DEPT))))whating to know why i didnt get a permit form them. i explained what i did, how i got involved......and told them i had no idea who in the hell they were))) told them to talk to the OWNER OF THE BUSINESS....as i was doing what he wanted done. now this bozo tells me that the colors on the sign wasnt meeting THEIR STANDARDS!!!! iam like really???? ITS THEIR LOGO, and they have had those colors as theirs....since they been in business.......then iam told i cant work in that area with going to them wth my business license, tax id and REGISTER WITH THEM AS A CERTIFIED VENDOR i n the historic district))))) i said ok......HUNG UP THE PHONE AND NEVER WENT THERE))))
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Our city does not have a written sign code, which makes permitting very difficult, but the one thing I like, and you may want to mention is the cost of permit. Permit cost 1% of the price of the sign with a minimum of $20.00.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2273 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
When I started out our city was primarily interested in how the sign was going to be erected or fastened to a building. To me that was what a sign permit should be for, this historically was in response to the monstrous unregulated signs that were crashing throughout the modern world and killing people.
For the past 30 years our city has been preoccupied with allowable square footage...AND...if the proposed sign is in the historic downtown district it must go 1st before a design committee and then be approved by city council. Too me it is a violation of free speech, but it has succeeded in protecting the degradation of the older brick wall that suffered from signs and awnings that exceeded the wind/snow load currently under recommendation.
We have been lucky enough to do much of our city's signage, so we can't hardly complain. Our number one concern is those companies that do signs in our community who try to avoid getting permits. Most argue they didn't know they needed a permit. Some getting permits and some not creates a state of confusion for everyone and usually the client suffers when he has to belly up a fine.
I've been thinking about offering up a plan that involves providing potential businesses a list of requirements that need to be met before opening their business. I think it could help.
The bottom line and considering what Dale said. Whenever you create a bureaucracy you also create other problems that stem from corruption and fraud. But I think it would be helpful to have consistency depending on population.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Around here, some cities charge by area, others by cost and some have different rates for illuminated and non illuminated.
The amount of paperwork and hoops to jump through has steadily gone up. Lobbying by the electric sign industry in Texas has pushed through an interpretation of law (not the law itself but it has all the teeth of the law) that a company has to have a master electrician on staff to offer a lighted sign, even if they plan to sub the entire job out to a company who has that license. I've often said the one thing that would drive me out of the sign industry is having to deal with permitting. In some parts of Texas, it can take months for a permit to wend its way through the system.
A few years ago, I read an article in one of the trade magazines written by a sign person who had gotten hired by the city planning department. He pushed through a provision that a sign company could apply for the permit and then go ahead and install if they'd certify that the sign met the code. That would allow jobs to be on schedule. I think that would be a great addition to any sign code.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
iam sorta glad i am with my sign career ......as the 1 thing i AVOIDED for most of it was THE PERMIT PROCESS. was alway a PITA!!!! while in sarasota fl(before the permit people got insane)i did a lot of windows, walls, vehicles & boats. every now and then i would get a job that would require permits.......and i would kindly step away, and tell the client HE COULD DO THIS..... without me in the middle)))) same thing when i moved here to pensacola. i set up shop, jumped thru all the hoops to open its doors.....and played the silly game of complying with county/city/govt rules that alway included a FEE.......TO DO ANYTHING. again i stayed away from getting permits. then they created some regulation that said sign shop owners had to have a contractors license. yep...not the full blown type like a builder/contractor had but to lesser degree...BUT STILL COST $$$$$$$!!!!! AND THE STUPIDEST ONE.......was the TANGIBLE TAX. they send out a form, you fill out telling then the EQUIPMENT/CHAIRS/TABLES/ LIGHTS ETC you have in your shop......THEY in turn create a $$$$$ value YOU HAVE TO PAY THEM.......so you can stay open))))) anyway to make a buck....
[ June 14, 2016, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
We USED to have 3 different sorts of rules in 3 adjoining councils - one would let you put anything on your OWN land, but you required a permit at $20 per sq metre, per year, eternally, for a sign on someone else's land. The next wanted a permit for every sign - even on your own land - but no fee applied. The other had a mixture. One had a 5 sq metres maximum for billboards, the other no limit specified, but no more frequently than every 400m, and various other considerations.
When they merged into one big council, it was silly as each old demarkation line still operated under their old rules!
Finally they came up with a long document allowing certain signage in certain areas subject to certain rules, which was essentially that anything inside certain parameters was "self-assessable" and no permit needed. Anything outside those parameters required applications, permits and fees.
So as a business, we try to see that clients fit the 'self-assessable' criteria - for a residential zone, there is a certain maximum size a sign can be, for a retail area, again certain sizes, for industrial certain sizes, and then each gets subdivided into building wall signs, fence signs, roof signs, illuminated signs, pylon signs, etc with set minimums and maximums, and as-of-right data and you-must-ask-first data.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I applied for a sign permit in Greensboro NC 2 years ago and these people made me buy an electrical permit,plumbing permit,and building permit which had nothing to do with a sign install.I paid almost $400 for this to get the permit and waited 9 days to get it.I told the big wheel,this is very unfair and he could stick Greensboro and their sign permits up his----- and I would never sell another sign in Greensboro,NC "They have the KEYS TO HELL"
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
Altho, there is an historic zone and 'rules' and an alleged committee . . . somewhere . . . whose approval one is allegedly required to seek out before putting up a sign, but whose approval is only sought by those who want a nice sign & would never have a tacky sign ...
In spite of said alleged committee, there are MANY extremely tacky signs which do not meet the alleged criteria many of my clients are unsure of . . .
OR either the alleged committee ALSO approves MANY tacky signs . . .?
OR the committee doesn't make people remove tacky signs . . .?
What is the purpose of the alleged committee anyway?
I would, kind'a, like to complain & raise . . . cain about this ridiculous . . . either desperately needed real committee or totally pointless alleged committee ...
BUT because we are none-of-us encumbered by the OTHER horrific extreme of needing sign permits for every little thing - like a simple 18x24 real estate sign, for many years, & heretofore, my position on designing, fabricating, & installing signs will simply be . . .
shhhhh.
In other-s'uthern-words;
Don't Start No Mess & There Won't Be No Mess
Wish there was a 'shhhh' gremlin.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic