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I'm quoting a one sided 2" thick 4' x 8' sandblasted HDU sign and trying to decide the mounting method.
It needs to be a blind install, and easily removable so it can be repainted when needed. Thinking of a french cleat type hanger about 6" from the top, and once hung on the cleat a couple bolts accessible on each side towards the bottom to secure it and make it easily removable by removing the two bolts and lifting it off the hanger.
The exterior wall it's going on is built from sandstone blocks and isn't flat.
Would like to make the hanger in one piece so it mounts to the wall first so everything stays lined up and it can be shimmed where needed to keep it all plumb. Once it's mounted to the wall, hang the sign and secure with the bolts.
Can I route a couple of 1/2" deep slots in the back of the hdu (one close to the top, one close to the bottom), glue in a couple of 1" x 1" aluminum tubes with epoxy then mount panel clips to the tubing? Is this strong enough?
Want to keep the sign as tight to the wall as possible.
-------------------- Ace Graphics & Printing Camdenton, MO. USA
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Absolutely. I've used aluminum angle instead of tubing. I just cut a slot, fill it with Lord adhesive, put some Lord adhesive on the inside of the aluminum angle and dropped it right into the slot. I've never had a failure.
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How close to the wall do you have to be? I once saw a how to French Cleat that was made from a 2 x 6. The interesting thing is that a lag bolt was put in from the top that locked the 2 pieces together.
The how to was on Francis Lansetti's Web site wins of gold.com...
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Thanks for the help. I have done the wooden 2x6 french cleats before and it worked pretty well, except for quite a bit of added weight. Think I will use aluminum on this one.
-------------------- Ace Graphics & Printing Camdenton, MO. USA
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Ok...got the job and have another question.
The 15 lb. hdu is 2" thick, and 4' x 8' Will make a rectangle frame from 2" aluminum angle or tubing to attach to the wall. The wall is sandstone bricks, so it's a little uneven. The frame should help keep things lined up.
For the back of the hdu, I want to use 2" aluminum angle and epoxy. If I attach two pieces of angle to the hdu, one close to the top, and one close to the bottom, will the sign be strong enough. Or should the frame on the back of the hdu be a rectangle also for strength? They will be taking the sign down and putting it back up whenever it needs a repaint.
-------------------- Ace Graphics & Printing Camdenton, MO. USA
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My favorite way of mounting that type of sign is to use a sheet of Alpha panel from Wensco (DiBond equivalent, but much cheaper) I make the Panel a little smaller than my sign. You can then drill holes through the panel and install epoxy wells to hold bolts, ore screw your cleats right to the aluminum panel, then epoxy the entire back panel to the HDU sign. The weight is not that much and it adds a lot of stiffening to the HDU which will help the 15lb. Let me know if you need more clarification.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Tony, This may be what you are planning. It works well.
I have watched installers mount angle to the backs of signs, near the top and bottom, then painstakingly transfer measurements to the wall for mounting the mating pieces of angle. It's never perfect, and takes time. But by fabricating the wall pieces as a rectangle, it can be installed to the wall in one unit, allowing easy installation of the sign.
Build the frame first, slightly shorter than the height of the sign. The top and bottom pieces that are to be attached to the sign can be pre-screwed to the top and bottom of the frame. These top and bottom pieces can be then glued to the back of the sign with the frame still attached between them. Remove the frame at the job site and mount to the wall. When you lift the sign into place to mate with the frame, it will fit perfectly and the mounting holes for the screws will already be there. Sometimes, on an uneven wall, the frame can twist a little when the screws are torqued down. You can give yourself a little slop between the mating pieces by putting washers between them when you screw them together prior to gluing to the back of the sign.
For the angle aluminum, I like what our supplier calls the "architectural" version. The inside corner is a sharp angle with no inside radius. It allows for a closer fit of the mating pieces. I like to use a TEK 5 screw for holding the mating pieces together. It will drill through 1/4-inch-wall angle without just spinning. If you use 2-inch angle for the tops and bottoms of the rectangle, use 1-1/2 inch for the vertical pieces so they don't stick out past the top and bottom. This allows the sign to flush a little closer to the wall.
I'm sure you've already thought through how you're going to do this, but I thought I'd post this drawing anyway. A pre-fabbed frame like this is a time saver.
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
That looks like the perfect solution Brad!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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Nice illustration Brad, thank you. I made a maxmetal sign for the same place using this exact method a couple weeks ago, and it worked perfectly.
This one being hdu, just want to make sure it doesn't come apart.
-------------------- Ace Graphics & Printing Camdenton, MO. USA
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Brad, Are you using mechanical fasteners to hold the top & bottom pieces to the back of the HDU or are you using adhesive alone? What type of adhesive?
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1266 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: Brad, Are you using mechanical fasteners to hold the top & bottom pieces to the back of the HDU or are you using adhesive alone? What type of adhesive?
We have done both ways. I have not heard of any of our HDU falling, but that doesn't mean anything.
We use Lord adhesive.
My preference is to include fasteners. For the example I have drawn, I don't find objectionable to have 1/4-inch counter sunk flat head machine screws through the face, three at the top and bottom. The painted heads are barely visible from 20 feet. Even a hex head is usually not objectionable. I think many people expect to see fasteners. Alternately, some #12 hex head screws through the angle from the back side would not be visible. Put a little adhesive on the screws and don't overtighten.
If the back of the HDU is painted with latex, which I do not feel has an extremely tenacious mechanical hold on the surface, I will always add fasteners. If there is to be a glue bond only, I am more comfortable with it if the back is painted with finishes that have a strong adhesion and get hard. We usually prime our HDU with Matthews 6001 Primer Surfacer, which does not have to be sprayed, then finish with Matthews topcoats by spraying. The 6001 Primer is like liquid Bondo and fills the pores well. In fact, it smells like Bondo. Use two coats minimum. You can sand it when it's dry and achieve a glass-like finish in the top coat if you want, though you will need more than two coats of the primer for this. I can apply two coats of 6001 by rolling before it "kicks." Once it starts to set up, though, it's fast and can only be troweled or applied by squeegee, like real Bondo, which is good for dings or holes. At the two-day Matthews paint school, they told us that it was developed just for HDU.
One more point, I always sand and solvent-clean aluminum before gluing it. 80 or 150-grit on a DA sander.
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks for the feedback Brad. I agree with you on the mechanical fasteners. Good insurance. We only use latex paints here so the adhesive may not work by itself. The fire dept comes by at least once a year. They don't like to see a spray booth. We had to tell them that we only use latex or other water based products or it would cost a small fortune to comply with the requirements for a solvent spray booth. I prefer the water based products anyway. We have been using them for several years with no complaints. There is a tradeoff, though in that it takes several coats of paint to get a good coverage on HDU.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1266 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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