posted
Hi everyone. I once again had an issue with a customer that demanded "his" design (file). This guy got real nasty, to say the least.
When I quote something, I tell them its $X for the time it takes me to create the design, letting them know that they're paying for the TIME it takes me to create the design, but not for the production files themselves. Most people are ok with this, but once in a blue moon, someone like this person comes knocking.
Has anyone finally come up with some clear wording to end this once and for all?
Thank you, Felix
[ July 06, 2015, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Felix Marcano ]
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Sounds to me based on the info provided that this customer might be on his way to another shop. once that happens there isn't much you can do. Send him the files in the proprietary format seeing as you have been paid for your time in setting them up. depending on the system you have and the one the other shop uses most likely he wont be able to use them anyway. If he asks for them to be converted, charge accordingly.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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You could really piis em off,,,,,,,Save a copy of the file somewhere in your computor. When he shows up at your shop, show him the original file, and right in front of his big eyes, hit the delete button! And then say "What design?"
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Another idea is to ask the client at the very beginning if they would like to purchase the "production files" after the job is finished. You could also have a printed price list that includes things like this, things that lend themselves to a set price. A price list could also inlcude line items for converting files to other formats. The price list could even be a handout that accompanies the invoice.
Asking for files for free is not right. Back in the day there was the occasional customer that asked for pounce patterns. This is no different. Unfortunately, there are many in the sign business today that do not put enough value on themselves, their work or their time. Consequently, the value of sign work in general is degraded.
Brad in Kansas City
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have had folks bring in their business card or send me a low res bitmap wanting a sign made, then come back later wanting the vector files of "their design". By the same token, If I spent 2 hours on clipart research, vector editing, font choice, layout, on a completely new concept and 2 hours on building them a sign, why later hand over the cut-ready or print ready vector production data to the sign shop across town so he can cut my price by only spending the 2 hours? If I only charged them for a sign, the production files are mine.
But if I create and sell them a "design" or logo as such, I give them their art on disc and charge accordingly. I even tell them that with an EPS vector file, they can get their design done by anyone, anywhere, and that the art will be consistent without the need to have it re-built every time.
[ July 06, 2015, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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If you were handlettering and used a paper pattern, what would you do if he asked for it?
I have it written on the workorder than all digital files created by BlueDog Graphics belong to BlueDog Graphics unless otherwise specified.
I do make the files available for purchase for a "nominal fee" (translation: for as much as I can squeeze out of the guy).
This is what I use....
BlueDog Graphics retains all rights to ORIGINAL artwork created in-house unless otherwise specified. This includes all digital files and color separated films.
Digital files and color separated films are available for a nominal fee. Fees may vary according to artwork complexity and file size.
[ July 06, 2015, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
This happens in every line of work. Its a good deal and they like it a lot. Make a deal and then the clients wants to alter the deal later on.
He already on his way to someone else. Nothing to do about it. That is why he asked for them in the first place.
No way should he get them files. They do not belong to him. The only thing he owns is the completed products. We as an industry seem to be way to easy on these types. No one else does it why do we? Why do we cave in and roll over like a lap dog when the law and states we should do other wise. Why do we cave in when nearly every other industry tells them to take a hike.
In the CNC land sometimes/rarely a client comes in demanding the code for their files as well. They never get them. Never. That is our intellectual property. We used our brains and creativity to create something they find impossible. Then they come in and demand our work so they can get something done cheaper over there. Of course its a little cheaper. They have no brain power involved.
So why should we give in to a demand like that. It's almost like a strong arm robbery. Just walk into a eatery and demand an order of fries a week after you had your burger. What would they say?
I ordered photos for an ad flier. They cost me a good amount to use them just one time. The user agreement clearly states I can use them one time. How would they act if I demanded another rotation? I know it would be hell no.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Or you could say, "I don't know how to do that. I only know how to make the sign, not put it in a file that someone else can use." And I have done that before. Just about a month ago, a lady wanted me to design a menu that she could alter anytime she wanted to and then get it re-printed. I told her "I don't know how to do that"
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
We've all had that problem. We have learned to discuss it up front. "Do you want a logo or a sign?" Joe is really good at explaining it to them and they know from the beginning that they can have the files, but they will pay for it. OR they can have a sign and we own the artwork for future jobs they might want done.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I have that happening right now as I type this. I have this guy that asks me to quote work for him and usual goes somewhere else. Several weeks ago he asks me how much for (500) 3x5 cards with a tie dye background. I figure the price, and give him a quote for the cards, and a quote for the labor to create the art, and now he wants a "rope" font, and a couple of photos, and can I get them from his Facebook site, so I go grab the font on a freebie site, and spend an hour and a half working the kinks out making it look right, and I navigate the hell that is facebook. I found a couple of photos that work, without anything I the background. Now he is asking to edit the extra background, and I told hime no, but went back and added that I could do it but for the original quote didn't allow for that many hours. He just got ****y and asked how much does he owe me for the work I have done now, with no printing. I know he is going to take it to the shop that just opened up in town. I have no idea what programs they use...but I know he is going to ask me to convert it to something they can use...you know, sometimes I hate people.
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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Customer: Hey, you know that lettering you did on my truck?
Me: Yes! Came out great! Why do ask?
Customer: Well, I want to get some business cards made with that design.
Me: We can do that for you... How many cards are you looking for?
Customer: Oh, I was... just... going to have my buddy do them for me...
Me: No problem. I can set up a disc for for 300 bucks.
Customer: What?!? Why should have to pay for MY logo?
Me: Because it is in MY computer.
Seriously, that was a conversation I had years ago. It still makes me laugh.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
The logo as such always belongs to the client. But, my files used to produce any of their products are property of Vital Signs & Graphics. Especially since I use Gerber Omega. It is only useful to another Gerber user. Never release an EPS.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:The logo as such always belongs to the client. But, my files used to produce any of their products are property of Vital Signs & Graphics.
Correct. A logo should be the intellectual property of the business owner. In the US it may be protected by both trademark law and copyright law, which are not the same but they can overlap.
Computer files and drawings produced by a sign company are not intellectual property, but physical property belonging to the sign company.
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Don't know if it's still legal or not; but it used to be (maybe in just some states). You could mail the artwork in a self-addressed stamped letter (or maybe a certified letter that you had to sign for)to yourself; and you would have documented proof of the date and time you originated it. It was supposedly called "The poor man's copyright".
Otherwise, give them a file that can't be used...tell them it's a special sign-business-only format, and that regular computers won't open it.
If a carpenter is commissioned and paid, by a customer, to build a piece of furniture for his living room........Once the carpenter finishes the construction of that piece of furniture and is ready to deliver it, does the carpenter have to surrender, to the customer, all the tools that he utilized to fabricate that piece of furniture ???.....Such as: the hammer, chisels, hand saw, screwdriver, etc.
posted
after you've rotated, sheared & warped it subtly in Photoshop!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Dale, "Don't know if it's still legal or not; but it used to be (maybe in just some states). You could mail the artwork in a self-addressed stamped letter (or maybe a certified letter that you had to sign for)to yourself; and you would have documented proof of the date and time you originated it. It was supposedly called "The poor man's copyright"." Would that really be proof, tho? You'd have to leave the envelope sealed until it was opened before a judge, I guess. But even then, who's to say you didnt steam open the envelope and put some other piece of art inside?
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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What about emailing yourself a jpeg of the art. You cant change the contents of a received email can you?
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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No, I didn't get the card job.... and I knew it was BS from the start. He also countered my argument of the CASmate files with being able to export as an eps format.
The long and short of it is... He still didn't get his file.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Good points, Dennis. But that's why I said I didn't know if it was still legal or not. This was from 30 or more years ago, in Ohio. We didn't have emails then, and there were several other sign people that I knew, that had used this technique...I guess, with success.
But yes, the idea was to leave the envelope sealed, and not open it until in front of a lawyer or a judge.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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The answer is simple as to who owns the copyright, if he commissioned you to do the artwork... You own it. He technically can't recreate it unless you give him permission.
When you transfer ownership to your customer is when you sign off your rights.
I don't believe in holding logo art hostage to any client, I always transfer rights but keep my right of promotion. But layouts? No way are they getting them, or the source files... not for free anyway.
You don't say what kind of artwork this is, to me, if this is logo artwork, find an amicable solution. If this is layout, follow your gut or charge them a lot to get that it... make it worth your time.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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In my case, Rick, I recreated the company logo from a low res jpeg because they didn't have or wouldn't provide the necessary file format.
I didn't consider it as holding it hostage. Let him pay me or someone else for the vectored version of his logo.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Bruce Bowers: In my case, Rick, I recreated the company logo from a low res jpeg because they didn't have or wouldn't provide the necessary file format.
I didn't consider it as holding it hostage. Let him pay me or someone else for the vectored version of his logo.
That I agree with...
Holding a logo hostage is when you design a logo, they want services you do not provide, or options you can't provide or maybe the experience was not that good and want to take their logo to a designer more agreeable to them... now if you charged enough, they should get the logo in a format that is usable, or you can hold the logo hostage (that would be your right) and look bad. I get paid a little more than the average sign shop because I just design, I don't want some crotchety old fart with 2" thick glasses putting his little design twist on it or some zit face kid trying to reinterpret my work. At final payment, my clients get a CD with all the logo formats they could possible use, and they still come back and ask for Facebook headers, avatars, and misc design items they never thought of.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Too, be honest, if he hadn't started the conversation off being so rude and antagonistic, I may have e-mailed it to him.
I knew his business card story was BS. They already had some. He kept asking for vectored art.No, he was demanding the vector art.
The logo was very easy to recreate. Anybody could have redone that so quickly. The other sign shop probably wanted a fee for doing it. Like I said, he was going to pay somebody.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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