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At the first of April, I got a message from a lady through LinkedIn interested in a set of channel letters. I accepted her, and met with her a few days later. She is moving in to a location that just went through a new renovation. I contacted the management company, got the spec's, created a drawing of proposed letters. She didn't like it, so I went back, gave her a choice between 12 different fonts, and she liked 3 of them, so I put together drawings of the 3 different styles, and quoted the letters to her.
A couple of weeks go by and I contact her, just asking if she had any questions, or could I help her with anything, to which she replied that she didn't. I did it to keep it in her mind, so she hopefully wouldn't wait till the last minute.
Yesterday I got a message through LinkedIn that she made a new connection with another company about 45 minutes away. I know of the company, but I don't know if they will do the same leg work that I did, or take my drawings and just quote them. I would hope they would at least give me a call to let me know that she is shopping the design.
What would you do at this junction. Call the customer and remind her that the layouts are still mine, even though it is all laid out in the title block? Call the other company, and let them know that if she showed up with drawings, I would appreciate a heads up. Or wait and see if she comes back to order, and if not, and someone else does the letters, and they are my designs, send her a bill for the layouts?
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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its the nature of the job)))))) you win some and lose some...........cant getem all))))) i got a auto sales place here........i see their sign every time i go by it.AND STILL ****ES ME OFF!!!! and its been 8-10 years))))) I DESIGNED their sign.......and somebody else MADE IT!!!! sooooooooooooooo..........not much you can do with aholes....who dont see any of your work as worth any money.....i also got a guy here, had me design a logo for his little airplane. ME, like a dummy handed him a full size print out off the plotter(with a pen in it)he said he liked it.....i never heard from again.....HE TRACED & PAINTED it......on the tail(both sides of his plane.........and didnt PAY ME 1 PENNY!!!! but i guess iam lucky......only got a couple that if ever done this to me))))))
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi Mark, Did you have any id on the drawings of who they were by or copyright info? I learned this lesson the hard way also. Don't give out anything without it being labeled clearly that it is your property. Send her an invoice for your design time. This what I have on mine, which I created through the input and help of letterheads.
This is an original unpublished design created by Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks. Any design and/or lettering created for this project are the intellectual property of Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks and remain the copyright protected property of the same. They are presented for the sole purpose of customer consideration and approval in connection with a project being planned for you by Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks only. They are not to be shown outside of your organization or used in conjunction with the obtaining of other competitive bids. They may NOT be reproduced in any medium for any purpose without the expressed written permission of Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks. Any infringement of this drawing will be pursued for legal remedy. Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks will be reimbursed $1000.00 for the time and effort in the research and design of this project, for each occurrence of infringement.
-------------------- Jeff Wisdom SignWorks info@oregonsignworks.com Posts: 450 | From: Oregon | Registered: Dec 2005
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Jeff, your idea is a good one, and that's pretty much what I've done also....although mine's much simpler (yours is probably better).
The problem arises when the customer goes somewhere else, and refuses (or just doesn't) pay you for your artwork. Then what?
With today's legal costs what they are, unless this is a really big, expensive job, it's almost foolhardy to sue someone for this. It will surely cost you more to sue, than to just chalk it off to experience...except for the personal satisfaction of (hopefully) winning the suit.
The kicker here is, many prospective customers know that you probably won't sue them, because of the expense, and readily take advantage of it.
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Disclaimers are akin to putting a lock on your shed... They keep honest people honest.
I wrote most of Jeff's disclaimer. I had it reviewed by a lawyer friend of mine. Trust me that it is pretty bullet proof from a legal stand point.
Would I ever sue anyone? I doubt it. I might send them a bill and let it be at that.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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i think the thing that saved me from this stuff.....most of the time..... I AM GOOD AT READING PEOPLES INTENTIONS.....i can spot a tire kicker from the 1st sentence. the ones you need to look out for alway seem like they really are on the level.....but they do things, in their spiel, body movements and how they wont look ya in the eye.....dead give away.....these i usually run the DEPOSIT BEFORE ART WORK........as i tell them its for materials for their sign and it will go toward its....full price....those that dont cough up $$$$$$ i usually never see em again.......
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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If you do sue someone for a bill they owe, and you win, doesnt the court also award you your lawyer's fee, etc?
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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Id mark it down to experience. Similar has probably happened to all of us at some time. The time you would waste chasing the client legally or personally, would be far better spent doing what you do best, making signs
-------------------- Kevin Gaffney Artistik Signs Kinnegad County Westmeath Ireland 044-75187 kevingaffney@eircom.net Posts: 628 | From: Ireland | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Jeff Wisdom: Hi Mark, Did you have any id on the drawings of who they were by or copyright info? I learned this lesson the hard way also. Don't give out anything without it being labeled clearly that it is your property. Send her an invoice for your design time. This what I have on mine, which I created through the input and help of letterheads.
This is an original unpublished design created by Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks. Any design and/or lettering created for this project are the intellectual property of Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks and remain the copyright protected property of the same. They are presented for the sole purpose of customer consideration and approval in connection with a project being planned for you by Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks only. They are not to be shown outside of your organization or used in conjunction with the obtaining of other competitive bids. They may NOT be reproduced in any medium for any purpose without the expressed written permission of Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks. Any infringement of this drawing will be pursued for legal remedy. Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks will be reimbursed $1000.00 for the time and effort in the research and design of this project, for each occurrence of infringement.
Very similar to what I have at the bottom of my title block. Mine says "This is an original unpublished drawing, created by Kottwitz Signs & Graphics. It is submitted for your personal use in connection with the project being planned for you by Mark K. It is not to be shown to anyone outside your organization, nor is it to be used, reproduced, copied, or exhibited in any fashion whatsoever. All or part of the design (except registered trademarks) remain the property of Kottwitz Signs & Graphics, until the time of release."
Jeff, would you mind if I added the missing parts into my title block?
And I may be jumping to conclusions. Or worst case, she comes back, and says that my price is so good that the other companies she showed it to can't come close to my price...
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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Disclaimers are a good idea, like Bruce said. But, Old Paint is your mentor too - try to learn how to read people. I've learned to listen for key words and watch body language too, and never give logo art without some down payment or money up front. I had a guy in my business networking group ask me to quote him on graphics for his 12' enclosed trailer, then asked me if I could lower my quote, then took my layout and quote to another (part-timer) sign shop who quoted him lower so he gave the job to that shop. Two weeks later - I see the trailer is all lettered up with my layout, and the guy who owns the trailer has a "deer in the headlights look" when he sees me - gets red in the face and stammers some excuse. I gave him "the not liking you much right now look". He quit the networking group at least.
-------------------- Kathy Weeks Weeks-End Signs & Graphics Lake Elmo, Minnesota Posts: 248 | From: Lake Elmo, Minnesota | Registered: Mar 2009
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I, like everybody else, got bit a few times by letting sketches out of my hands. My solution, if they just HAVE to take the sketch with them, charge them. It quickly weeds out the price shoppers and the non serious. Hand them an invoice on which it states the sketch charge will be taken off the price of the sign. If they go somewhere else with it at least I get paid for my time.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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I had a customer years ago with the messiest office I had ever seen. It was in a pretty nice office building which made it stand out even more. The carpet had not been vacuumed in a long time, overflowing waste baskets, messy desk. I can't remember what I did for him, window lettering, I think. I had a really hard time getting paid. Finally got a check not worth the paper it was printed on. I did eventually get paid but it was a lesson in reading people.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1050 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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hey chuck......have you seen most "sign peoples" office?????hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Since you didn't get a sketch deposit before putting any time into their layout, I would now ask them kindly if the other company is quoting off your drawings, and explain to them that the reason they may be able to do the job for less is because this integral part of the job is already done for them. Furthermore, if they use your same format, you will be sending them an invoice for that time. If you have your layouts marked with a stamp, this is a valid approach.
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
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He quit the networking group at least.
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