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Has anyone noticed any problems with the cheaper brands of aluminum composite? There seems to be a few brands out there now, all quite a bit cheaper than Dibond. It seems OK but I have not had any in the sun long-term. I'm concerned about the white finish lasting. It doesn't seem to be as rigid in the 3mm thickness, but I don't have any Dibond around to compare it to.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1064 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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most of these are "powder coated" paint......so all should last about the same. now the stuff in the middle.....PVC plastic........some good some softer then others. ive always thought the same thing bout alumicore panels......aint nothing but coro in between......and ive seen it fall apart in less then a year.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Something else too....I get most of my supplies from Tubelite and the composite they sell is called "Elite". The lady there told me it comes from overseas......
The coating on it is called PVDF (google it) Long word, for a coating that's made basically so nothing will stick to it....for out buildings, etc. That means paint doesn't stick well either. It takes some real cleaning and delicaate, but thorough scuffing, to get even a marginal bite for the paint. And if you put any real pressure on it, you can scuff right thru....the coating is like thinner than onion skin.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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These are made of the "Maxmetal" brand from Grimco, I coated with DTM acrylic, router cut, and installed in April 2010.
These were made the same way with Alumapanel's "Polymetal" brand and installed December 2009. Both jobs still look like new. I have had no problems with either product.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Good, thanks. Max Metal is what I'm using. I think the aluminum part may be thinner than Dibond, although I'm not sure of that. As long as it's screwed onto something, or framed it shouldn't matter.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1064 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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When I was running a router and making "V" cuts for boxes I had to cut every panel because the aluminum facings could never be counted on to be sthe same thickness. Also some aluminum was of better, or worse, grade than others and would gall the cutting tools. Goes for bare aluminum panels as well. Some od the cheaper ones have Hard spots that just make you scream. In the thicker stuff we did use Alucobond for the quality and consistancy.
Just sayin
-------------------- Bill'n'Annie Davidson Heathcote, NSW, Aus. my Aussie wife, a Toohey's Old, my Holden Ute, Retired from the rat race! Posts: 309 | From: Heathcote, NSW, Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am currently painting a panel called Alupanel from Wensco. Same thickness and aluminum thickness as Dibond. The two 5x10 panels I bought were $100 each LESS than Dibond. I tested paint adhesion and the tape pulled up nothing. I am using automotive base/clear though. But since it is polyester paint NOT some siliconized paint or powder coat, I know I'll have no problems. They also have a panel that is not for direct printing or brake forming. That one in white is only $39.91 a 4x8x3mm sheet but carries a 3 year warranty.
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I have used Omega Board by Laminators, Inc. purchased from Mid-West Sign Supply. I did a test about 6 months ago and recently found it buried in the shop. I clean with alcohol, did not scuff at all, painted with Ronan lettering black with hardener and hi-temp reducer. Passed the tape test, fingernail test and held up quite well to a screw driver scraped across it.
-------------------- Curt Stenz Graphics 700 Squirrel Lane Marathon, WI 54448 Posts: 602 | From: Marathon, WI 54448 | Registered: Dec 1998
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There are many brands, and many grades inside each 'brand'.
Here in Australia, the cheapest stuff is flat or semigoss on both surfaces, and ie 0.1 to 0.2 mm thick skins of aluminium on either side of a polyethylene core.
The cheapest stuff has 0.1 mm skins. the better quality stuff has 0.3 mm thick skins, and will usually be glossy on one side.
The cheapest stuff is manufactured and the skins stick to the face via heat and simple contact through the manufacturing process. I've been told the better and more expensive stuff is actually glued to the centre.
There is a reason some has a 12 month warranty & some has a 5 year warranty.
Do not expect the cheapest stuff to last as well as the dearer stuff.
The PVDF that Dale mentions seems to tbe the way they're all going - it's a kind of non-stick, satin or semi-gloss extra UV-stable surface coating. You have to scuff it if you want paint adhesion. Or use the other side (glossy) without the PVDF coating.
We have price ranges here between $39 a sheet and $139 a sheet (8x4 ft), and I would only ever use the cheapest stuff for small indoor non-structural work.
Surface coatings vary also. It pays to do your hoomework and assume nothing!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Dave Sherby: I am currently painting a panel called Alupanel from Wensco. Same thickness and aluminum thickness as Dibond. The two 5x10 panels I bought were $100 each LESS than Dibond. I tested paint adhesion and the tape pulled up nothing. I am using automotive base/clear though. But since it is polyester paint NOT some siliconized paint or powder coat, I know I'll have no problems. They also have a panel that is not for direct printing or brake forming. That one in white is only $39.91 a 4x8x3mm sheet but carries a 3 year warranty.
Dave, the cheaper alupanel has a skin of .15 and the others are .30. (hope I am not missing a zero) At any rate, the thinner ones are good for using on a solid back wall, not free standing.
As far as adhesion, the same.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2786 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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We have an Alupanel brand of ACM here - they also make a freestanding sheet with a name I've forgotten but it has an X in the name, and comes in 2500 mm long sheets instead of the 8 ft/2440mm, and it is 4mm thick, not 3mm, but it is capable of holding up with no internal support studs. I've used it for some double-sided signs where there was an exterior or perimeter frame, and just this inside the frame. That saved needing 2 sheets, one each side with internal uprights every 2 ft.
Our Alupanel brand had the 8x4 sheets in all sorts of cheap & skimpy variations, but anything over 8 x 4 ft, comes only in the quality grade with the 0.3mm Al skins.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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David, the cheaper stuff is not Alupanel which indeed has the thicker skin. The cheap stuff, ALPHA panel has the .15 skin and cannot be formed or rolled because of the thin aluminum. Alupanel has the same thickness specs for the core and the aluminum as DiBond. I checked this out thoroughly before purchasing.
[ October 02, 2014, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Dave Sherby ]
quote:Originally posted by Dave Sherby: I am currently painting a panel called Alupanel from Wensco. Same thickness and aluminum thickness as Dibond. The two 5x10 panels I bought were $100 each LESS than Dibond.
I've had the same experience with AluPanel. Good durability in Michigan winter weather. Better price too
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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A lot of good info, thanks. One of my concerns I haven't seen replies on is how the original finish holds up in the sun without additional paint, just vinyl graphics or cutout letters applied.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1064 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: the cheaper alupanel has a skin of .15 and the others are .30
Yes, David, you need another zero. The aluminum thicknesses are measured in thousandths of an inch (also known as mils).
Ten thousandths, or ten mils, is written as .010". Thirty thou is .030".
.30" would be almost 1/3 of an inch in thickness!
Maybe someday, like the rest of the world, we will use millimeter fractions, instead of mils. Incidentally, a millimeter is .03937 inches. So a mm is a little over 39 mils thick.
Brad
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:One of my concerns I haven't seen replies on is how the original finish holds up in the sun without additional paint
As Ian S. said, panel makers are using PVDF-based paints more and more. These paints are extremely durable, both for weather resistance and chemical resistance.
PVDF stands for polyvinylidenefluoride, an extremely durable cross-linked flouropolymer resin. There are numerous resin systems used in paint making. Acrylic, epoxy, polyester, polyurethane, vinyl and PVDF are examples. You may have heard of Kynar 500 and Hylar. These are trade names for PVDF resin. It's not so much the application method that determines durability, but the resin used, though the application method certainly affects the amount of time needed for applying the coating, and consequently the cost of the end product. In a typical gallon of paint, there may be 10% pigment, 20% resin and 70% solvents and additives.
I might be corrected on this, but I think most solvent based coatings can be applied any number of ways: dipping, spraying, brushing, rolling, powder-coating. A common production method for coating sheet metal is "coil coating." The sheet is manufactured in large coils which are then fed into painting machines that apply paint with rollers. The continuous sheet then passes between heating elements which force the curing process. Then the sheet is cooled and recoiled. The curing is more than simple drying, that is, the evaporation of solvents. There is a molecular cross-linking process that is initiated by a chemical catalyst. The result is a film that has great durability.
In answer to Chuck's original question, PVDF-based paints are considered a step up in durability from polyurethanes. Dupont Imron and Matthews are both polyurethanes. PVDF painted panels should weather extremely well with no other treatment. Metal roofing is painted with this stuff, which would be a harsh test of any coating. Does that mean these coatings are the best? Not necessarily. The intended use is a factor, too. A chemical resistant coating is great for graffiti removal. But if a coating is so hard that it repels not just graffiti, but graphics as well, whether vinyl or painted, then this affects its value for signs.
I think the jury is still out on some of these panels. Experimenting, and time, will reveal which ones work best. I would hope that our suppliers stay on top of this enough to not give us products that aren't workable.
.........
One more thought on the idea that 'you get what you pay for.' Why are so many of these panel products so cheap? The thin, lower quality aluminum skin answers the question to some extent. But remember where these products are coming from. Are some being produced by companies that have very low paid workers under dangerous working conditions? Recent revelations of working and living conditions for employees of Foxconn (electronics) are kind of scary. Investigations into unhealthy working conditions, extremely long hours, unpaid overtime, squalid dormitory living, underage workers, forced employment for college interns as a prerequisite for graduation, and a rash of employee suicides, are sobering to think about. I've heard some persons compare the working conditions in the Chinese electronics industry today to the working conditions in 17-century England. It only ended for those workers when they united and rebelled. The struggle succeeded, but it was painful.
It's nice that we can all afford iPhones. But there are reasons why this stuff is as cheap as it is. And the reasons are not always pretty. I'm not trying to preach here, but it's something I think about.
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Very good points Brad. A couple weeks ago I brought my concerns about the Alupanel as the panels I received were marked "Made in China." I wondered if these were the low quality panels. I was assured that the Alupanels I purchased were made to the same specs as DiBond. But what made me feel even better is that they were moving the manufacturing from China back to the UK.
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