posted
About a year ago the sign company that I work for hired me as an artist to hand paint a sign for them. Everything went very smoothly, gave them a quote, they approved, the work was completed on time, and it installed without any issues. I gave them an invoice and they cut a check, no issues. At the end of the year I received a 1099 and I paid my taxes like a responsible American citizen.
A year later a crack formed on the sign and I had to repair the paint after the fiberglass had been repaired. I gave them a quote for substantially less than what I charged them in the first place but now they won't issue me a check like they did the last time.
The accountant says because I am an employee of the company that they have to pay me through payroll and not as a subcontractor. So everything will get taxed and it'll go on my next paycheck.
Something doesn't sound right about this. The repair amount is far less than what the IRS cares about and truthfully small enough to come out of petty cash. But the company was audited a few months ago and my initial invoice/payment got them in trouble.
This really bothers me because recently they've been taking full advantage of my sign painting experience and making me do work on the clock that I would usually charge three times as much for without even a thank you or mention of extra payment.
posted
You're a sign painter who works at a sign company but only paints signs on the side (a practice a lot of companies wouldn't allow)? What is your job t the shop? If you can make such good money why aren't you doing it full time on your own?
posted
The owner, at one point, encouraged creativity and awarded people with skill and talent. The company doesn't actually advertise or do hand painted work... until I started working there.
At first I thought of it as experience and education working with some of our other subs that painted (which it was) but now it's expected of me to hand paint for 18/hr. Which is 1/4 of what the artists we used to hire would quote. Not only do I feel taken advantage of, I feel like we're screwing the the other artists.
Currently I'm an installer/ surveyor but there's talk of me moving up to install project manager.
But the whole "not a subcontractor because I'm an employee" thing seems wrong.
posted
Perhaps you should ask other sign shop's painters what there salaries are. Respectfully if you are not paying for all of the expenses(rent, Workers Comp, liability et al) that a bonified sign contractor has to you may not be getting as bad of a deal as you think.
If you are also a sign contractor on the side you may just be in a very conflicted situation. many companies would frown on your outside endeavors as competition.
[ September 11, 2014, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Bob Sauls ]
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
Wait a minute, you normally work for this sign company. But they decided to hire you on your own time to do some painted work for them. Okay, at that point did you agree on a price and after the job was completed did you hand them a invoice?
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I call BS on your concern for the other artists.
quote:Not only do I feel taken advantage of, I feel like we're screwing the the other artists.
If you feel so put upon, then quit. You also could refuse to do the work. You have choices.
You are making more money than a lot of shop owners I know. You also make more than most shop employees I know. You are making a fair wage doing what you like. Beats the snot of working at The Home Depot...
Don't make your employer out to be in the wrong here. Employees getting paid out of petty cash is a red flag. What is the difference if they take the taxes out or you pay them when you file considering what "a responsible American citizen" you are...
I learned your lesson at the age of 17 when I painted signs for the restaurant I worked at. Yeah, I got fired and didn't get paid the full amount. Tough lesson... but I learned.
My advice... Take the money in your paycheck and don't do it again if it is going to cause such angst in your life.
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
When you became a subcontractor, you should have formed your own company, to handle just such actions. Just leave your name out of the company name. Just my thoughts.
-------------------- Donald Miner ABCO Wholesale Neon 1168 Red Hill Creek Dobson, NC Posts: 842 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Apr 2006
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You are an employee and therefore it makes sense to utilize your talents 'on the clock' - as you put it.
I once had an employee who wanted to be paid extra whenever he was carving. I'll say to you what I said to him, " you get paid an hourly rate; you get paid the same amount to carve as you do sweep the floor."
Asking for different remuneration rates for different tasks is not realistic.
If you want to be paid more for your 'special' talent - go start your own business.
You can then pay yourself top dollar for the time you spend painting, minimum wage when you are sweeping the floor and whatever the 'going rate' is to work out quotes, answer phones, deal with client and all that other admin.
Personally, getting paid to do something you enjoy is a blessing. Not having the responsibilities involved in owning your own business is also fun.
Either you are an employee or you are on your own. The choice is yours.
-------------------- Shirley Carron Black Sheep Designs 184 John St. N. Arnprior,On.,Canada shirleyc@magma.ca 613-623-7053 Posts: 503 | From: Arnprior, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
why is the company a bad guy here, they were audited and the original way they handled your last invoice caused them trouble. So this time they are doing it legit. You have to respect that.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Bruce, Shirley, & Bob are spot on. You cannot do sub contract work for the same company that you are an employee unless it is in a different field. If you were formerly a plumber and worked on their sink, that would probably fly as a subcontractor. Subs are suppose to use their own tools. It would be a big no no if you used anything from the shop you work at, which is probably the case and why your company got in trouble.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Bart before you begin to feel a little betrayed by the direction this thread has gone. I do feel as though your employer changed the rules on you mid-stream. You both sould have worked on communications about this after the the trouble. We really are in your corner and hope that you can find the sweet spot.
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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You are a sign painter, and an excellent one, if I may I say so.........if you did those signs that you are showing us.
A sign painter, who, according to you, makes $18.00 an hour, as an employee of a sign shop......That is equal to $760 per week (if you work 40 hours a week )........Unfortunately, nowadays, with the present conditions of our economy, that is a respectable amount of money......It seems that you have no idea of how many other professionals( many with college degrees ) do not even get close to have a steady income like that.
So, what is wrong with that? Nowadays, a steady job that pays $760.00 a week, is very hard to get. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't be complaining, at all.
You are a lucky guy.......But, if you are not happy with what you have, then, get yourself on the road and start doing freelancing, full time, and you will be able to get paid, on a per piece basis.......This way you will get paid for what your work is worth.
But, please, do not blame the sign shop owners......They gave you a job and pay you very well, by today standards.
By the way, I went through, exactly, the same experience, as you are going through, now.
After over 30 years of being freelancing and having owned, already, 5 sign shops ( in different States ), Six Flags re-located me, from Orlando, Fla., to Oklahoma, back in the days........They made me an offer and I accepted it....I knew, exactly, what I was doing and what I was getting into.....and never looked back nor complained about it. On the contrary, I was always glad and happy for having been hired to do what I most enjoyed doing. Luckily, around a great team of highly skilled and friendly people.......I loved to work for Six Flags, mainly, because it was fun work and, more important (to me) was the fact that it provided me with a permanent and secure weekly income, with which I could take care of my family needs, my son's education, my Social Security, my Health Insurance and my Retirement fund........How about that?
Thanks to that decision I made, back then, I am, now, retired and I am comfortably living and supporting myself with my Social Security and my Six Flags pension checks.......By the way, I still paint signs, once in a while, when I get paid what I ask for ( in cash, of course ).
But, that is just me.......Maybe, you still have different goals to accomplish. If that is the case, do not listen to what I have said and just go after your dream.
Most of the people here are not only signmakers but shop owners and as such have employees. That said, I think most of the opinions here are going to come from that point of view.
Many of us, have probably at some point. shared an experience where a person is hired on to be 'part of the team' and required some training.
As employers we spend time and money training that person. We pay for the material when they make mistakes; we pay them to redo jobs that weren't done properly.We pay our employees while they are chatting at the coffee machine;they are paid for the time they spend at work - productive or not.
It's ulitmately our name on the door, our risk owning the shop, and our signature on the paycheck and on the rent cheque etc.
Sometimes, it happens that an employee shows interest and talent in a certain area of the business and in your case that would be hand-painting.
As an employer it is wise to offer your talents as part of the services the company can offer it's clients. I would look at it as a return on my investment.
Too often an employee will come on board, learn the trade, hopefully excel in an area or two and then decides that his/her talent are beyond the pay grade.
Many of them go off and try to start their company, thinking they deserve more , and if so & so can charge that much - I deserve to paid that as well.
They don't really see the rest of what is involved in running a business.
They aren't skilled or prepared to hit the road and promote the company when sales are low, or communicate effectively with clients.
They don't take into account the risk, the financial interest or liability.
It sounds like you are a well paid employee, who had the opportunity to work with and learn from some other talented artists and were paid by your employer for this experience.
Now your employer is asking you to take what you've learned and add it to the mix of services they offer, as part of the team.
Is that so bad?
If you and your employer had an agreement whereby incentives or bonus' were offered to learn a new skill, then perhaps they need to be reminded of this and hopefully you can work something out.
If you are truly unhappy with the arrangement as it stands, maybe it's time you move on.
-------------------- Shirley Carron Black Sheep Designs 184 John St. N. Arnprior,On.,Canada shirleyc@magma.ca 613-623-7053 Posts: 503 | From: Arnprior, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
I would like to add to the excellent responses here., that One things have found, Is that it is a bad idea to discuss how much you are making with other employees. Either you or they will most likely feel short changed, leading to resentment and problems. Once I was hired to come in and airbrush some things for another company. I told the other employees how much I was making.(they asked) It just about caused a revolt among the hourly regular workers......and greatly annoyed management.
posted
I don't know the current pay structures of sign shops. Back when I worked as a journeyman sign painter, we were paid a good bit more than the installers. You are in a crappy situation. The way I see it you have three choices.
1. Demand a raise 2. If number 1 doesn't work,refuse to paint signs for them anymore, you weren't hired to do that in the first place 3. Quit
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
My Daddy taught me a great lesson years ago...
"Never issue an ultimatum or a threat you are not prepared to back up."
George is right... we always have choices. Too bad sometimes we make the wrong ones... Eeeps!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I think the shop has to take of themselves...
The only advice I have is...
YOU CONTROL YOUR CAREER... so take control of it. Paint the signs at 18 an hour, work your arse off, look for another job, then ask for a raise! But have a job ready in case they take offense, leave a big gaping hole when you leave... of course remember, anyone can be replaced.
Another thing is start your own business. I quit a very well paying Project Manager position with a sign company and started working for myself. I get paid less, but I have full control of my career... and I still get work from the company I left.
My opinion is, if you have been doing this for any length of time (over 20 years) then 18 an hour is chump change.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Bart - The IRS used to have very specific rules to determine if you are a contractor or an employee. And, good, bad or otherwise, most are designed to protect someone in your position - the employee - whether you like it or not.
Generally speaking, though, if you don't have other clients, you will be considered an employee.
Cheers,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
You could approach them & ask for a different rate when using your "special skills" or an agreed upon "bonus" for each project that requires use of your "special skills". Be nice, don't demand just explain that you were hired at $x to do this, this & this, not that so perhaps we could work out an agreement for extra compensation for doing that. Sell yourself - they could outsource outside the company at a higher rate for those special skills but you're already there, they know your work, your dependability but these special skills are outside the job scope you agreed to perform for the agreed upon hourly rate. Worst case is they say no.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Kissy hit it right on! I had an employee at onr time who was a very talented artist. we broke her salary down into 2 pay levels .... one for when she was using her awesome talent & one for the normal tasks that have to be done. this worked VERY well
The "skilled" rate was 1.5x the regular pay rate.
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 472 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
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