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I hope this isn't "old hat", but I'll pass it along anyway. Last year, I had to do an illustration as part of a splash. I can't remember exactly what it was, but I needed to draw the art, then white base it. I either had to base each part of the drawing separately, base it all at once, then redraw the parts, or do the fingernail drag thing, which is slow, and not precise. So I decided to experiment with marking the lines with a redish-carmine colored Sharpie marker before basing with white. The red lines came through well enough to omit drawing them twice. Last week, I had a customer just immigrated from a foreign country, and wasn't prepared for the cost of skilled labor (splash) in America. We came to agreement on my rock bottom price; but it meant I had to move fast, in order to make the rate. So I drew the letters out with china marker, then with the above mentioned Sharpie. This allowed me to base around the entire word. I don't paint each letter. I don't have to be careful to make the shapes and leave holes for O's, B's,and so on. I still follow the top and bottom contours of the letters, but they're spaced close enough that I don't cut in the sides of each letter; the black outlines or cool panel color will cover that white. I've done something similar before, where I painted each letter with the 3 inch roller the normal way; then painted over the entire word in a rectangle or some other panel shape. The "ghost" of each letter shows through, and the rest of the white paint is a base for a cool panel color. What's better about this new method is that it's faster, and, I'm not obligated to have a conventional panel shape there. This allowed me to experiment with a background of quickly painted, angled grass blade/ palm frond thingies as the cool green and blue green background. Yet another experiment was to make very light blue lines ( same angle as "grass") going through the white letters, prior to yellow top coat. These of course turned light green, but were more integral than if I had tried to paint them on top of the yellow. All of it worked well, I'll see what I have for pictures. Finished as it was getting dark, not sure if a have a final pic. Oh yeah, I think I've mentioned this before, but on this job, I told the gal, no fluorescent, just regular colors. What I didn't say is that it almost doesn't matter. I'm getting tired of the rising cost of fluoro, and the short durability. So what I'm getting really fond of is my custom chroma formula. You go to the paint store, pick out the most intense yellow color sample they have, and tell them to mix this in a clear latex base. Absolutely no other colors, not a drop, and no base, not even their lightest one. Must be clear. Of course, it has zero coverage, you could probably coat your windshield, and drive safely. What's cool though, is that the color really pops, almost as much as fluoro, but at a fraction of the cost. Cleans off the glass a LOT easier, and I assume, lasts longer. That's what I used on this job, and it goes very nicely with the grass background. Will try to post a pic soon.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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To clarify; the "ghost" method is for double based white, when you want that extra pop. The Sharpie comes through two layers well, so you can double base with this method also.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Do you think if you were in his foreign country they would bow to your demands of a lower price? Techniques to save $ are always interesting and great when people share them as well, thank you. But double coating a white? So now that white has doubled in price and has taken longer to dry. Why not choose a better white? Like you eluded to that "speed is where it's at" when it comes to windows. I too use fluors as well as traditional colors. I let them choose with knowing one costs more, no matter where they're from. Do not cheapin' the window promo, get faster and stand your ground, how many others offer what you do?
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am sure that he had already called every sign shop in a 20 mile area looking for someone that would work cheap.
My solution, when dealing with them, is to simply turn around and walk away.If you give in and work cheap, you will get all their cousins calling wanting cheap!
"You want really bright promo window, be prepaired to pay for fluoro!"
quote: “Man surprised me most about humanity.Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”
― Dalai Lama XIV
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I never let them get involved with the colors or the process. If they ask how much I give them a general range. If they get price sensitive, I tell them they better find that guy who comes in from the sticks and drinks stale beer.
I do not do mom and pop jobs. Most of my work is big new car dealers and they rarely ask how much. The key is showing them a very well drawn corel sketch, superimposed over a picture of their windows. If they ask price, I generally tell them I charge everyone the same and drop it. Rarely do they ever then get specific. If they do try to nail me on a discount, I stare back and ask them how much every month they spend on advertising. I know. I used to run one and these guys are dropping huge bucks on marketing and promotion. A thousand bucks or twelve hundred for a three hour splash is nothing to them. I send them a bill and they pay within a couple of weeks. The cheap chiselers get to wait and get rarely served.
Another trick is to tell them several hundred bucks more and then when done tell them I still have some extra paint and do they want to do that side window by the door, included at no extra charge. That gets them used to having more than just the front done and they think I am a generous guy. If they give me a hard time after I get started, I just do the front and split when I am done.
Whenever they start talking colors, I just explain to them that this is what I do and to let me give them the best job for their serious money. They almost always consent, especially when I emphasize that their job is being put into my schedule ahead of someone else. Urgency is the key.
When they need some dumb logo, I ask them what it will do for them as they already have it up there forty feet off the ground. It is the specific and urgent message, not some ad for their brand. If it is a seriious tie-in to the splash, then OK...like the 5 star logo or some service dept. logo.
Sharpees? They do bleed back thru sometimes. I only do top and bottom marks for the horizontal chalk lines and draw out all the letters with a 3" roller. M' and Ws are 1.5 and Is are halves or better. I measure the length and divide by how many letters. On the chalk snap line I thumb a mark at where the letters start, double checking my spelling....yes. Grand Opening Sale has a G in there at the ed of OpeninG, I learned the hard way. For boxes that smaller letters in black are done in, I snap the horizontals over the painted box and do use a sharpee to mark the dots of the beginning of each letter.
Sometimes I use a grease pencil if the one I have around has not yet melted or split into twenty little pieces. (someone needs to make much better china markers out of thicker wax and easier to peel paper wrapping. A creapas works as well, if it is kept cool and wrapped in masking tape. I never got used to those blue hard wax pencils. Stabilos?
Another old school trick I heard about back in the 70s was to wipe down the window with diluted stale beer, leaving a slight film on the glass that could be easily fingered where the shape of the letters was needed. I never carried stale beer, so I never tried it. I heard about another guy who would throw onto the glass chalk dust and finger it. Whatever works.
And the Home Depot bright colors in latex? I prefer the oil based fluoro colors as they hold up against rain better, double coated exterior latex does do a respectable job of staying on there after a heavy rain. I do sometimes get a quart or two of a deep blue or a bright yellow latex and put it over a white box. Prefer fluoro, though. It is just brighter.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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"Techniques to save $..." Actually, it's a way of saving TIME, lots of it. There has been no work here for several months. Making the hourly rate, having fun learning new stuff, paying my own way in life...guess I should mend my ways. I could have delivered blah for that price, but instead I took it as a challenge to force myself into coming up with a new way. I'm quite pleased with the result, and the gal, well, she got a good deal, a fluke, it happens in life. It's not the new price standard for splash in this area, in fact, my prices are finally up to where I like. Other splash people won't be threatened by my prices, there are no other splash people. That doesn't mean I can charge whatever I want, customers just opt for vinyl from someone else, money is a huge priority here.
[ February 28, 2014, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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James comment, "Other splash people won't be threatened by my prices, there are no other splash people."
Interesting how there are less and less splashers left. Did it happen because of a lack of demand or because the skills were to tricky for younger sign people to pick up, compared to running a vinyl cutter or slurpy machine?
I run into clients who tell me they used to pay some lesser amount for a splash. When asked when that was, they generally fidget around and think it was just a couple of years ago (when you could buy a new F150 for $12000). Yeah, that was a couple of years ago, like decades are years.
I remember 25 years ago there were three of us here in KC. One guy died in a motorcycle accident and the other one developed cancer. Five or six years back some Nissan store put up some fabulous tyvek fluoro signs and when I examined them closely, turned out to be Pierre Tardiff's work, imported in the thousands of miles. I wasn't really concerned that he was another mule kicking in my barn, especially when I saw the amazing quality of work.
The five years earlier a woman from Tightwad, Missouri (yes, Tightwad)showed up and did a few windows. Average at best work and not very aggressive.
I always welcomed competition because I figured more would mean more. Now all I see is some company doing large scale perf graphics that are great photos of cars zooming around racetracks advertising some MPG or price point in a lease. They look like every other conventional display advertising....boring as a mud fence.
Time to retire, I guess. No younger painters coming up behind me and the splash art seems dead. Reminds me of Showcards or neon, I guess.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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