posted
I just checked out a fire truck I am to do for the local fire department, & they want me to replace the old leaf with vinyl, & Signgold. (they will not be swayed to do the real thing, been trying for years) Anyway, I am going to try to post a picture of what they want removed. It appears to be real gold leaf with an outline of black vinyl. Any suggestions? The worst part is the 1/2" stripe that needs replaced. When they repainted the truck a while back, they masked off this stripe & painted right up to the edge! UGGHH! There is a small trim strip painted in cream around the back wheels they want removed also, I am supposing oven cleaner will take this off, or is there something more gentle?
This makes me heart sick to have to remove this, 2 really nice old scrolls on the front corners, you can still see the fine highlights faded, but still there.
posted
Ah Bobbie, that's gonna be a bad one. Being that's it's not a factory paint job, if you use EZ-Off oven cleaner, it will darker the paint where it comes in contact with. You could try sanding it off. Yes, I said sanding. You start off with 600 grit wet/dry. Then you pick up the 800, sand down a bit more, finsh with 1000 or 1500 grit. Then you bring out a buffer, you start with the red rubbing compund. Then you use the white polishing compound. Then,,, you use 3M Perfect-It polishing compound. When you first start sanding, just sand off the painted areas lightly (WET)as if you were using a Exfoliating puff on your face. Once you're gotten 87 1/2 percent of the lettering off, then you can concentrate on the edges around the letters from the re-paint. And you're gonna have to tell them it's not going to look perfect. The finished job will show a cloud image of the old lettering and that there might be some scratches and dull spots. But,,,you're new lettering will hide most of it. Hopefully the new lettering will be going onto the same area with maybe a combination of slightly bolder letters and a slightly bolder outline. You could even add a second 1/8in. outline all around. And then of course, you might be able to have the new lettering set onto a ornate panel surrounded by scrolls, like that David Bulter style.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Whatever you do, make sure you explain the difficulties to your client in writing and have them sign a release stating they have been warned and that you are not responsible.
As to the oven cleaner, it is the method I used the most. However, I use Mr. Muscle. I seem to have fewer issues with it than I did with EZ Off. But that's just me.
After removing the vinyl and cleaning off any adhesive residue, I spray the surface of the lettering with Mr. Muscle and then cover with Saran Wrap (plastic wrap of any sort). This lets the cleaner spend more time cleaning and less time evaporating. After about 30 seconds, I pull back a portion off the Saran Wrap and push the lettering off with a plastic squeegee. I've rarely had the repeat the process more than once. Neutralize with plenty of water. Then I'll buff with 3M Perfect-it. You should be ready to go after that.
posted
Hmmmm.....what takes the leaf sizing off? It will come off with the cleaner, if I use the cleaner, or the duct tape if I use it? Oh boy Alicia, I might end up buying all the sanding supplies you mentioned. you are right if I try the oven cleaner it might ruin it. Maybe if I try a test spot?
posted
It's the sizng that comes off the easiest. To not make a big mess using the EZ-Off oven cleaner, I brush it on with a cheap nylon hair brush. Something like 1 in wide should do fine. I spray in into a cup and brush it on. Ya still gotta waer gloves and maybe a respriator. The vapors are really bad. If it eats paint can you imagine what it can do inside your lungs. Bobbie, if you didn't live so far'Id come out and coach you. Plus ,then you could blame me if something really bad happened.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I do somewhat the same as Alicia, only I use tin handled acid brushes that you can find in the plumbing section of the hardware store. Buy a bunch of them.
Mask as tightly under the lettering as possible to prevent the oven cleaner from running down the surface or onto anything below it. If using Easy-Off, make sure it's the yellow can NOT the blue can.
Spray it into the cup and brush it on fairly heavy and brush tightly over the shape of the letters. Let it sit for about five minutes (don't let it dry out). Then push the brush straight into the surface, fanning the bristles out and scrub in a circular motion. The fanning of the bristles will prevent the tin handle from scratching the paint.
Wipe the surface clean with a paper towel, followed by a wet (water) paper towel and dry. Repeat as necessary until it is all gone.
DO NOT let the oven cleaner get on any bare metal such as aluminum tanks, battery boxes, etc..
It also needs to be warm to work, doing it in the cold is a waste of time and materials.
Unless it's clear, red is about the worst color to have to work with, it seems to stain easier than other colors.
Explain the dangers of damaging the base paint to the customer and let them know there is no way to guarantee there will be no damage to the base paint.
-------------------- David Thompson Pro-Line Graphics Martinsville, NJ
I'm not this dumb, it's just the paint fumes talkin' Posts: 396 | From: Martinsville, NJ | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
And then there is the EZ button solution. Tell the Fire Department to get the doors repainted.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Donald that was awesome help-THANK YOU!!! What kind of mask? Masking tape, or transfer tape? Alicia, I like your sense of humor, yeah, the EZ button!
posted
I usually use plastic sheet mask. A garbage can liner cut open to make a flat sheet works great. Regular masking tape should hold it in place with no problem.
BTW, it's David, not Donald
-------------------- David Thompson Pro-Line Graphics Martinsville, NJ
I'm not this dumb, it's just the paint fumes talkin' Posts: 396 | From: Martinsville, NJ | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Just to be on the safe side, I think you should have the customer ( Fire Station ) have the doors cleaned and re-painted by a body shop......BEFORE you do any work on those doors.
It's a big responsibility for you and, very easily, something could go wrong and turn this project into a costly experience for you and.....probably, what you are charging for your work may end up not covering the risk and the amount of work involved. Thus, minimizing your profit.....
Should you decide to accept this challenge, then, like Glenn and David said, make sure that you explain, to the customer, the risk of possible damage to the base paint of the doors and let them know there is no way to guarantee there will be no damage to the base paint.......IN WRITING.... AND SIGNED BY BOTH PARTIES....YOU AND THE CHIEF OF THE FIRE STATION.
posted
Yes...it's a horrible dicey job even for someone who does know what they're doing...
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Bobbie, I tell them I put it on, it's their responsibilty to remove it, bring it back and i'll reletter it. Problem solved.
-------------------- Len Mort Signmaker1.com 11 Juniper Drive Millbury, MA 508-865-2382 "A Good Business Sign, is A Sign of Good Business"(1957) Posts: 811 | From: Millbury, Ma | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
If you try to do the removal, it might pay to ask them or explore if the areas have been repainted before. If it is old factory paint, then you can perhaps try some hotter solvents like lacquer thinner. If it is synthol enamel, it will wrinkle it and be ruined. If it is thoroughly baked factory acrylic enamel, you might be able to rub off any of the leaf/lettering with lac thin. Acetone is too hot.
I had some truck door year ago that had been lettered on top of factory acrylic factory enamel and lac thin really did quickly remove the one shot lettering fast. just have to check and perhaps experiment a bit.
The best advice would really have them refinished by a pro body shop, first. Surely, they have thought of this and making you chance ruining the finish just to save a few bucks is foolish. If you try it, just be careful about the liability issue.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
"Yes...it's a horrible dicey job even for someone who does know what they're doing.."
This looks like it might have been computer generated. Make a tracing of the lettering with registration s to the truck door and do the scroll also. Match the font and cut your vinyl. Hand cut the scroll if necessary. Use the method si mentioned with duct tape to remove everything but the size. Use mild thinners like mineral spirits or denatured alcohol on the size. If it come off great. If it doesn't budge, leave it and put the vinyl directly on top of the where the old lettering was.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I'm still having difficulty thinking that someone could lay gold leaf on a door and then outline it with vinyl??? That offends my sensibilities and dishonors those that taught me.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6713 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The Black looks like paint to me, and I have always had good luck with the EZ-Off.
It has been a long time since I needed it so I can't find my fancy lawyer paper right now, but it said something to the effect that... I will attempt to remove the existing lettering in an effort to save the customer the expense of repainting, however if something does go wrong, the customer will be responsible for repaint before I reletter.
Have the customer sign off on it, and 9 times out of 10 you will not have a problem. My luck is... if I DO NOT have them sign... that will be the one that goes bad.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2274 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
First, David I am sorry! I scanned your name & thought you were my friend Donald!!! Thank you again for your help.
George your advice with Si's sounds the most doable.
Rick you are right, leaf with vinyl is not right, it is a shame.
They also want ALL the striping removed & redone the whole way around the truck, that is around 682" worth of hell. The worst part, it has already been repainted around the stripes at one time & when it was, they masked over the stripes & painted it, now there is a build up of paint around the stripes they want stripped & relaid.
I think maybe if they call me back I might decline the stripping. Len that sounds good!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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There are a lot of great replies here, but I would have to agree with Lenny. I have a detailer and a body shop I work with that I usually refer customers to. It's nice to be able to "do it all" but this could go ugly fast for you.
Especially becuase it has been "repainted"
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
bobby..........WHEN DID YOU BECOME A BODY & FENDER PAINT AND REPAIR SHOP??????? #1. you honestly believe........these people HAVENT checked with a body shop as to repainting the doors and removing the stripes????????? #2.preston said it best...."The best advice would really have them refinished by a pro body shop, first. Surely, they have thought of this and making you chance ruining the finish just to save a few bucks is foolish." #3.they are looking for the "cheap" way out.......and its only going to "cost you." #4. IF THIS YOUR 1st attempt at removal of paint/vinyl.........PASS ON IT....again.....these people will EXPECT AND DEMAND from you more then they ARE GOING TO PAY YOU!!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I would proceed almost exactly like Alicia said at the top of the post as this is how I saw body shops do it when we ran into problems with E-Z Off. They always used block sanding to hit the high areas with wet dry sandpaper dipped in a bucket with soapy water... moving from coarser to finer and then buffing coarser to finer. I was surprised at how cheap it was to just have them do it rather than us getting those really good buffers and such.
If you use E-Z Off make sure it's the yellow can that contains lye as lye is what takes it off.
However if any automotive hardeners were used good old E-Z might not budge them.
I have people call us all the time trying to remove my striping with E-Z Off and it won't budge. That's because I use urethanes which are impervious to lye. They'll take it to body shops and they bitch about removing it and it gives you a reputation of putting paint on that lasts and lasts. That's a testimonial for using urethanes.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: When they repainted the truck a while back, they masked off this stripe & painted right up to the edge!
Are you sure the lettering wasn't taped off and painted around as well? Some of the letters in your pic seem to show an overlap of clear (bottom edge of the T and lower round part of the R)
Personally, I wouldn't touch this job. Not worth the risk!
posted
Gee, all this mess about removing to re-doing. If the new job to going to resmble the old job, it still might be more costs effective to re-do with real leaf. Especially since they already ruined the paint job by clearing around the stripes and lettering. ( Now isn't that stupid. Ya got the whole truck masked off and you still waste time by masking around the stripes) And Bobbie, don't let them push you around, stand up tall. Be as tough as a truck stop waitress. Believe me Honey, I always go into waitress mode when dealing with undecisive or pushsy men.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I haven't heard back from these guys. Maybe my price was too steep to remove it. And after lots of thought, I have decided that if they DO want it done, I will turn it down. You guys are right, I'm not gonna risk it. And Alicia, I'm gonna use that tough girl attitude to tell them if they ask me. Thank you sweetie, I can always use the extra "courage"!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Yep- I agree with OP too! Next thing you know we will all be walkin around in red speedos, throwing pottery while watching the steelers play football
It sounds like too many issues that would blow up in my face if I was the one suckered into doing it- I think you made the right decision by passing on it- maybe they can just bring you the fresh doors and let you do what you want on them.
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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you are right if I try the oven cleaner it might ruin it. Maybe if I try a test spot?![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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