posted
Hi all, Long time since I've been here, and I thought this one of the best places to ask. I've been asked to redo several apparatus that have been previously gilded by a very good local gilder. While I need not match what was done as the lettering is going a different direction, I was intrigued by the process the gilder is using now. Traditionally, he gilded in the traditional manner - size and gold on truck, black painted shadows and highlights, then clear over all. Now, he's using a clear vinyl top layer - and I can't figure out how he's doing it. The gold is still hand spun, but the black does not look like it's been brushed, except to clean up a couple areas and edges. There is absolutely no "edge" where two vinyls would overlap, and when peeled, comes off cleanly (usually) and reveals the spun gold from the back - but it's still a vinyl adhesive. I can't figure for the life of me how he's doing it, unless there is a really thin clear vinyl that he's double layering, then cutting the outline. I just looked at another new apparatus yesterday, and the same thing was done, but with multiple color drop shadows that had no brush marks in them. I imagine a mask and airbrush may have been involved, but still, it's a very clean look that I'd love to try to emulate. Anyone have any idea how this may be done? It is not SignGold - I can clearly see small surface scratches in the gold.
Thanks for looking! Rick
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Leo's Smart Gold is not real gold. It is hand-laid. The spins are done by hand as well. It cost about $17 per sqft.
Leo's does offer it in real gold but its a lot more expensive than SignGold.
Be warned. Do not apply Smart Gold wet. Make sure that the edges of the overlaminate seal the edges of the Smart Gold very tightly.
I have seen some cases where Smart Gold has turned green.
The vinyl is printed with the Gerber Edge. It is then cut and weeded. After weeding, it is laminated with 3M 8519 and a second outline is cut. The vinyl is weeded again and then premask is applied.
posted
Interesting. I'll have to order a sample from Leo's to see if it's the same thing. I would think though if there is a clear laminate being applied to the first surface with the leaf, you'd still see the overlap line. Have you used this stuff Glenn?
Rick
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Years ago, when I was doing a lot of work for a local wooden boat dealer/restorer, he always waited until all the work was done before asking me to letter it (gold leaf)...for whatever reason.
But it was always hurry up and get it done. So, I started taking a sheet of Gerber's enamel receptive clear vinyl, and just leafing a big section of it at one time. Then, I'd put a coat of clear spar varnish over it, and put it aside.
When he'd call, I'd cut the boat name out of the leafed vinyl, put it on the boat, and outline around the lettering....and sealing the edges of the vinyl at the same time. Next day, they'd put the finish coat of varnish over the whole transom, and it'd be goood to go.
Don't know if something like this would fit in, but it was along similar lines.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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I use it all the time. The only problem I have with it is that Leo is inconsistent with the liner he uses. Cutting the gold the first time isn't a problem. The challenge is when you have to make the second cut after you've applied the laminate. If Leo used a thin paper liner, there is a tendency to cut through the laminate and the liner. It just screws the whole thing up.
posted
Huh... I reckon this stuff is only thermal printable? I would think an inkjet would lay too thin or not adhere at all.
Great website and some really nice work, Glenn! Thanks for the example - is this stuff really that thin that you can't see an edge when the laminate is applied?
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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An inkjet works just fine. My local wholesale printer printed some for me about a year ago since I don't have a wide-format printer.
Leo's Smart Gold is about as thick as regular cast vinyl. The 3M 8519 overlaminate is 2mils thick but is very conformable. It will conform to the edge of the Smart Gold without any problems.
If you'll email me your address, I'll send you a printed sample. gtaylor (at) creativegraphicsnc.com
posted
Glenn was kind enough to send up samples of the Leo's... it still wasn't "it" as there would still be a visible line around the gold from the overlaminate. However, in talking with several firefighters locally, they suggested it might be right from the Pierce factory. Reference the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVh0kqE4gbE&list=PLHP-z1WjnPWufMyjAQggSd4va_hfHPoBH, starting at roughly 1:10 for an almost step by step, though I'm very sure they left off key portions... like the overlaminate. I'm more convinced now that it's a simple laminate sandwich that's been contour cut. But the clear must be very thin...
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
From what I saw in the video, it looks like the over laminate is a clear coat applied with a quill. It starts at the 2:03 mark. You can see the clear coat in the cup, and he's brushing it on the gold.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
I was wondering about that. It very well may be that simple.. At the end of the segment when they shoot the applied piece, there is no clear vinyl outline as I have photos of above. So I wonder what the point of printing then gilding on the clear is if it's going to be covered up anyway? Wouldn't it be just as easy to gild directly onto black vinyl?
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dale Feicke: Rick, you might want to refer to my post above, for gilding on vinyl, unless you know a size that will stick to the black.
Yep, I remember using an enamel receptive years ago.. just didn't think it was still around with the advent of the digital age!
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I realize this is an old post, but I may be able to shed some light on this process. I'm a new guy in the industry, but my whole business is built around fire apparatus graphics. I have had to figure out the process shown above to be able to match the graphics produced by Pierce Mfg. and several sign shops who use the same techniques. I start by printing the lettering on clear vinyl using my Gerber. The outlines and shadows are printed in whatever color they are supposed to be, and everything that will be gold leaf is printed with imitation gold. I then lay down the size over top of where the imitation gold was printed, lay the leaf and turn it. Then I print a second copy the same way, except where the gold leaf will be is left clear. Both copies are printed with registration marks. I laminate the second copy, and lay it over the first copy that has the leaf. The whole thing is then loaded in the plotter and cut. That is the whole process in a nutshell. I can't guarantee my process is the same as what the other companies use, mostly because nobody seems to want to share any info about it. I know for sure Pierce uses 3M, I use Oracal because it has been great to work with.
posted
As a city official here, I get to go to conventions or to suppliers of different types of equipment that cities purchase.
Over the past year or two, we've seen several fire vehicles from a couple of manufacturers, and I've been on a tour of Seagraves manufacturing facility, down south.
From both of these sources, all of the vehicles that had lettering on them were done in the way it was described above. I don't know who did them; but this seems to be the most common method now. It also seems that it would lend itself to easier repair, should that become necessary.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
The process has its advantages. As stated above it is much easier to repair if the need arises. It also makes it possible to make the graphics in house and ship them out to be installed. But with all that being said, I respect the people who still do it by hand on the sides of the trucks. That is an art that I hope I can learn eventually.
posted
This is fascinating ! There are trucks that I did for many years in our town that are now coming from the factory looking like what I did. It's leaf and all the wood graining on the log letters, etc. They put me outa business in the firehouse, but I've been wondering how it's done. Thanks guys.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Glenn was gratious enough to send me a file so I can see how he's doing it. Everytime I go to a convention, everyone else is checking out the apparatus & compartment set-ups while I'm over here studying the lettering & talking to myself.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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