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» The Letterville BullBoard » Letterhead/Pinstriper Talk » Looking to get a CNC Router..

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Author Topic: Looking to get a CNC Router..
Matt Schwartz
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Member # 36065

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Hi, I work for a company called Design Craft Signs, we've been in the sign business for 37 years and are looking to get into a CNC router and have been looking into the following setups:


EZ Router

Shop Sabre

ShopBot

Techno


All of the above seem to be quite similar in construction, quality and performance and in our budget.

It would mostly be used for cutting individual letters from 4" to 36" tall, out of gator or sign foam or plex, routing backgrounds on sign foam or cedar signs from 12" x 24" up to 4' x 8'--is a vacuum table and pump needed?


Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Also, feel free to email me at sales@dcsigns.biz

Thanks!

Matt

--------------------
Matt Schwartz
Design Craft Signs
11003 W. Forest Home Avenue
414-425-3363
sales@dcsigns.biz

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Rodger MacMunn
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Matt, check out CAMaster. Built in Cartersville GA
Well built,welded steel frame, a good forum & they'll build whatever you need without goofy re-engineering charges.
Their forum is a great place to ask all the above questions.

--------------------
Rodger MacMunn
T.R. MacMunn & Sons
C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON
613-279-1230
trmac@frontenac.net

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Raymond Chapman
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I have a ShopBot and it has worked great for about six years. I don't have a vacuum table.

In the background you can hear Dan Sawatzky snickering.

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Chapman Sign Studio
Temple, Texas
chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net

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Dave Draper
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Member # 102

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 -
Wart Hog by L.A. Enterprises
We have the Warthog, and I love it.

But, for all the reasons you would love the WartHog, there is one reason, one very good reason you should look closely at the Cobra
 -

Look closely. Instead of an expensive tool changer, they simply mounted 2 in line routers. All you need to do is put two different size bits in the colett and layer your job, and it will cut both layers, each with the appropriate bit at the appropriate time.

Also, some of the above models can become a lathe.
I wish dearly I had the lathe mount on my Warthog.
We could have easily cut spiral columns out of foam for our monument signs. Also a great feature for wood workers.

Its called the SIDEWINDER:
 -

[ February 21, 2013, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]

--------------------
Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

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Rodger MacMunn
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My CAMaster has the wide gantry for the 4th axis, just in case I figured out the other CNC stuff really quick & needed another challenge. Nope, don't need that other challenge.
They built mine to fit in my shop, & actually built it to fit in the box of my Tacoma so I could bring her home. 49" wide, 40" long ( cutting) & she weighs 734 lbs.
She's my fat gal & we's in love!

I think every CAMaster model can be fitted with the 4th axis, even the tabletop model, which still weighs 400 lbs.
The pic above is of the X3 .... perfect for cabinet makers. They also have a fast tool change & an ATC as well.

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Rodger MacMunn
T.R. MacMunn & Sons
C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON
613-279-1230
trmac@frontenac.net

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Dave Draper
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Hey, Rodger,
What is the gentleman's name at CAMaster? Am I wrong, or was he a part of WartHog (now L.A. Enterprises) and moved on to develop the Cobra? I wish I could remember his name...Glen something or something Glen...I can't pull it out of my grampa Dave head...I hate getting old!

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Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

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Eric Humphreville
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Get a vacuum table I can't imagine trying to clamp everything down and not run into them. On the rare occasion I need to clamp something it's a PITA.

--------------------
Eric
PA

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Dave Draper
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Member # 102

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Eric,

There is another way! Even TWO.

First, you can get the weights off an old Wieder Gym set, the rectangle weights covered in plastic, which work really well for holding down material, until the router bit smashes into it, because you...er me...wasn't watching.

But the smart way to do it is when setting up your cut, on layer 1, you add drill points in areas where the router does not cut.

Run layer 1 first, and the router will drill holes in the material. Screw the material into the table. Then run Layer 2, which is your project.

Both of the above are easy to do, costs nothing, and saves thousands of $$$ on a vacuum.

Even so, I have seen "Shopboters" use two shop vacs, set up in zones, on a homemade grid board and it seems to work, which also costs nothing if you own a shop vac or two.

And the added benefit is LESS NOISE! The router, the screaming bit cutting material and the vacuum
is really really loud! [Eek!]

Just FYI [Smile]

--------------------
Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

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Pete Payne

Member # 344

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vacuum hold down requires 3 phase power and are very noisy, and usually don't hold small parts very well. I use 3m spray adhesive, and some that have vac tables supplement with spray adhesive or dbl sided tape for some things anyway

--------------------
Pete Payne
Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters
Bayfield, ON

Canadian Signcrafters

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Dan Sawatzky
Resident


Member # 88

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I can't comment on the brands of routers mentioned above as I have no experience with them. I am more than happy with MultiCam.

As for vacuum hold down... I wouldn't consider a router without it. I can pop pieces as small as one square foot onto the table and route, smaller pieces if I block them in with other scraps. I simply couldn't imagine fiddling with clams or other ways.

In our shop we do not do production work but more often custom one off pieces that run for hours with a small bit. Even so I consider an auto tool changer a good investment as well.

If you consider your whole investment - router, installation (including electrical and other upgrades to the shop and related equipment), software and learning of the same, plus samples and other related costs, trying to save a few thousand dollars on a lesser machine is foolish. The router will hopefully earn you many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars over it's lifetime. A quality, well built machine with rock solid support from your local dealer is an investment of money well spent.

-grampa dan

--------------------
Dan Sawatzky
Imagination Corporation
Yarrow, British Columbia
dan@imaginationcorporation.com
http://www.imaginationcorporation.com

Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!!

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Rodger MacMunn
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Dave, his name is Bill Glenn. Great guy ....
His son , Josh, is in the biz too. I've met him but not sure who he works for.

--------------------
Rodger MacMunn
T.R. MacMunn & Sons
C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON
613-279-1230
trmac@frontenac.net

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Dave Draper
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 -

--------------------
Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

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David Harding
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Wow! I've had a CNC for forty years!

--------------------
David Harding
A Sign of Excellence
Carrollton, TX

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Rodger MacMunn
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It all boils down to your unique situation on what you want or need for a CNC. Dan's MultiCam & Rene Giroux's AXYZ are great machines that do what they need it to do.

A neighbour of mine has a much larger machine ... I don't know the brand name .... but when I asked him about it, he said DON'T buy a CNC made anywhere but Germany or Japan..... the rest are junk. His was $250k. The same guy has a 52" planer that they paid $140k for 30 years ago. Both machines work 2 shifts & yes they've long since paid for themselves.

Then there's the Carvewright. I know a couple of people turning out nice stuff with them.

I figure one should buy the appropriate machine for their needs. Yes, everyone says "buy your second machine first" but it's like designing the perfect home...... before you're done, you'll have wished you'd done something differently.

Compare to buying a truck for your shop. If you need a full-size pickup truck to deliver signs, that's what you buy. It's silly to try to save $$$ by purchasing a S-10 if you need the big box. It's also not prudent to buy a double-bunk Peterbilt just in case you sell a big sign someday.

I know now that I could have bought a bigger machine, & that I'll not likely ever add the 4th axis on mine. Mine is gradually paying for itself, but if I'd had a $1000/month payment on it, I wouldn't have anything to drive.

I talked to Shopbot, General & CAMaster & AXYZ before deciding. All said that I really should buy a 4 x 8, but for warranty, required that it be kept indoors. For my needs, the CAMaster was by far the best value & they built it to fit. Plus, I only have 60 amps in the shop.

In my lifetime I've bought things that were too light to do what I wanted them to & I tried the "build it & they will come" theory, only to see them stay away in droves, so I'm pretty careful with my $$$ any more. There's nothing more stressful than having to choose which of your possessions you are going to make the payment on this month .....

--------------------
Rodger MacMunn
T.R. MacMunn & Sons
C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON
613-279-1230
trmac@frontenac.net

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Dan Sawatzky
Resident


Member # 88

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There are plenty of choices when it comes to a CNC machine and the truth is as Dave points out above that pretty much everything will get you the same place in the end. But not all are created equal. Speed, accuracy and durability are the variables.

Most shops use their CNC routers as very expensive jigsaws. The CNC machines cut much, much faster and much more accurately than doing it by hand and can make you some serious money if you put through the volume using this function.

When I bought mine I wasn't seeking to become a production shop. Although I occasionally cut out pieces most of the hours on my machine were spent routing detailed 3D pieces. That means a small bit and high overlap. WHile I wasn't overly concerned about speed, how fast it could do what I wanted did add up in a hurry. A servo machine was a must in my case as they are much faster.

Because I teach workshops that involve routing I hear lots of feedback about many different machines. I hear how long it takes to cut a detailed file compared to my router. I'm happy with the choice I made and confidently recommend what I do.

In the end what you choose has to make sense financially and fit your budget. It also has to do the things you wish to do. Upgrading later never made a lick of sense in my mind as you are simply spending hard earned money twice.

I have a very nice fourth axis on my current machine. It is capable of some pretty nice stuff. But the truth is it gets used only occasionally and would be hard to justify in most shops.

As to Dave's last item on his list... a true jigsaw (and I still use mine regularly) would take a long time to make a sign like the current one we are building. This kind of work is where a CNC router really shines!

 -

-grampa dan

[ February 22, 2013, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]

--------------------
Dan Sawatzky
Imagination Corporation
Yarrow, British Columbia
dan@imaginationcorporation.com
http://www.imaginationcorporation.com

Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!!

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Wayne Webb
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Like Dan says, get a servo driven machine if you can. Steppers work fine at lower speeds but their holding torque decreases as speed increases. This can cause stepper motors to skip out of step at higher speeds. With servos, you can run it much faster with no problem.

Also, if you opt for a vacuum hold-down and. like myself, can't get three-phase power, you can use an electronic phase convertor to run the blower motor. All you need is common single phase 220v power, the convertor unit, and a magnetic starter.

--------------------
Wayne Webb
Webb Signworks
Chipley, FL
850.638.9329
wayne@webbsignworks.com

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Dan Sawatzky
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We have single phase power in our shop. As Wayne says this can be handled with a phase converter. One thing to remember though is that the phase converter decreases your horsepower. We opted for an 11 HP spindle which as I understand it now (with the phase converter) performs 30% less efficiently meaning we effectively have a 7 HP motor on our spindle. We have a 10 HP single phase (220 V) motor on our vacuum which is both quiet and powerful.

-grampa dan

[ February 22, 2013, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]

--------------------
Dan Sawatzky
Imagination Corporation
Yarrow, British Columbia
dan@imaginationcorporation.com
http://www.imaginationcorporation.com

Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!!

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Bill Davidson
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I've been using routers for the last ten years. First shop had no tool changer or vacuum table top, it was okay, I thought! Until I started using this one, 5 x 10 foot, auto tool changer, and vacuum top.

Trouble is with manual tool changing the Z axis setting has to be done EVERY time you change a tool, Don't forget to do this! 18 tool rack, we use 7 different tools and the 50mm dia skimming tool in the rack. Set the Z axis when the tool is changed, done! Select and set in the driver and go. The time gets eaten up pretty quickly with a manual machine. Oh, and re-doing the job if you forget to set the Z, priceless.

Just sayin.

--------------------
Bill'n'Annie Davidson
Heathcote, NSW, Aus.
my Aussie wife,
a Toohey's Old,
my Holden Ute,
Retired from the rat race!

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Dave Draper
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Sorry, I didn't explain something in the above chart:

The CNC Bosch Jig Saw....Well, the CNC stands for:

Clunky Nuckleheaded Can-opener

(not Computerized Numerical Control

Just FYI [Smile]

--------------------
Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

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David Harding
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I've been ratted out on that Bosch!


Thanks, Dave...

--------------------
David Harding
A Sign of Excellence
Carrollton, TX

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Wayne Webb
Resident


Member # 1124

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Dan is right about that HP loss. Electronic or "static" convertors, like mine, do cause a drop in HP. The rotary ones are more expensive, but produce full HP I think.

[ February 22, 2013, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]

--------------------
Wayne Webb
Webb Signworks
Chipley, FL
850.638.9329
wayne@webbsignworks.com

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Dave Draper
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I wanted to see flames on this post so I bumped it up. Shame on me!

--------------------
Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

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Dave Draper
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Yep, we have flames burning at the side. [Applause]

I bet your a little ticked off to click on this post and find there is absolutely nothing else to see.


BUT THERE IS!
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Update on the Buyers Guide Chart:


 -

I felt bad in my assessment of the ShopBot.
This is more better.

[ February 23, 2013, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]

--------------------
Draper The Signmaker / Monumental Designs
http://www.monumentaldesigns.com

Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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