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Glenn...Oh I get your point...but we know from our past experiences that our points of view are just about as different as 2 people can have...so I'll leave it at that...I was not surprized that you would defend Walmart...I've never known you to back down to a challenge...and you are consistent...but when debating someone who was president of his high school debate team...well let's just say I know when to bow out...have a good day.
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Facts suck, don't they Rusty. Look, I'm not defending Walmart. I just don't like to see anyone unfairly demonized. People want to use an emotional argument against Walmart. Emotion-based arguments are easy and present lazy thinking. I simply want to interject actual facts into that argument. The emotion-based argument will hold or it won't. That's all.
I admit I chuckle a bit when people pat themselves on their back and proudly proclaim that they never shop at Walmart because they pay low wages and hurt mom'n'pop shops.
These are usually the same people who willingly shop at JC Penneys which pays its employees even less than Walmart. When JC Penneys came to my town 40 years ago, a lot of mom'n'pop shops closed up as well. The very same benefit cuts Walmart is implementing today, JC Penney is also doing or have already done.
And in knowing all of this, I have to ask where are the protests against JC Penneys? Where are the back slapping "I'll never shop at Penneys blah blah blah!"?
If were suppose to hate Walmart and are to be consistent, shouldn't we be doing the same thing to Penneys?
posted
Glenn...your point is well taken when you state..."Like it or not, labor is a commodity."...that is all too true...but labor is much more than merely another commodity as part of any business model...it is real people...with families...and sure you may characterize that as an emotionally based argument...but that in and of itself does not invalidate the argument...in my way of thinking that is what anything and everything should be about.
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I understand that. But is the standard of living the responsibility the employer's or is it the responsibility of the individual?
Bad things happen to good people. I know. I've seen it. I've lived it. But I have a problem when we try to browbeat someone else into being responsible.
Experiencing difficulties and adversities in life can make us stronger. It helps us to become better people. And if we take those things away just to satisfy our own sense of justice, then we're not letting them grow. We are holding them back. And that doesn't help anyone. And that is why I believe that if someone is unhappy with their circumstances, its up to them do something about it. We just need to get out of the way.
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my 2 cents: Is it the "responsibility" of the employer? That's a debate for a different time, is it in the employer's best interest? Absolutely. For two reasons: A society with a higher standard of living purchase more goods and services. And a happier employee is a more productive employee.
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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Glenn...I see where you're coming from and you make good points to represent your view...you are unequivocally an "individual responsibility" guy all the way...and the belief that government should play a limited and very small part in the lifes of the people or "stay out of the way" as you put it...is of utmost importance to you...and that's ok...it's a point of view shared by many...I personally think government can and should be a player for the betterment of the lifes of the people they represent...maybe next time around enough people will see it your way and there will be a guy in the White House that agrees with that point of view...this is as political as I will get and the last post I will make on this subject for fear that the wrath Steve may fall upon us...we've done this type of thing before...and we really do see things differently...but as they say...I hope we can agree to disagree agreeably...and I think we have...possibly the only thing we have in common may be our passion for sign making...and that would be a good thing that we can share and agree on...now tell me the truth...you were captian of your high school debate team...weren't you?
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Debate captain? Ha! My Irish/Italian blood more likely.
My POV is more along the line of Ben Franklin who said....
“I am for doing good to the poor, but…I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed…that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
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There are sign shops down here that pay minimum wage to semi-skilled workers. They offer no benefits what-so-ever. People accept those jobs because they chose to. No one is forcing anyone to work anywhere.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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My Irish/Italian blood more likely.
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